Trying to Build a Drow Bard: 4ftr/16brd?

[Mr.Krauss]

About to attempt my first bard. Noticed the lack of feats so i added four lvls of Fighter for extra BAB, improved crits and weapon finesse. Hoping to dual weild rapiers semi-effectively. Please give me any thoughts you might have, and if I've done something noobish (which i believe is fairly likely) dont be afraid to shout out. Thanks

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Golddigga 
Level 20 Neutral Good Drow Female
(4 Fighter \ 16 Bard) 
Hit Points: 238
Spell Points: 575 
BAB: 16\16\21\26\26
Fortitude: 11
Reflex: 20
Will: 18

                  Starting            Ending          Feat/Enhancement
Abilities        Base Stats         Base Stats         Modified Stats
(28 Point)       (Level 1)          (Level 20)           (Level 20)
Strength             10                 13                   14
Dexterity            20                 24                   26
Constitution         10                 12                   12
Intelligence         10                 12                   12
Wisdom                8                 10                   10
Charisma             16                 20                   22

Tomes Used
+1 Tome of Strength used at level 4
+1 Tome of Dexterity used at level 4
+1 Tome of Constitution used at level 4
+1 Tome of Intelligence used at level 4
+1 Tome of Wisdom used at level 4
+1 Tome of Charisma used at level 4
+2 Tome of Strength used at level 7
+2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 7
+2 Tome of Constitution used at level 7
+2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 7
+2 Tome of Wisdom used at level 7
+2 Tome of Charisma used at level 7

                  Starting            Ending          Feat/Enhancement
                 Base Skills        Base Skills        Modified Skills
Skills           (Level 1)          (Level 20)          (Level 20)
Balance               6                 31                   32
Bluff                 3                  6                    6
Concentration         0                  1                    1
Diplomacy             3                  6                    8
Disable Device        n/a               n/a                   n/a
Haggle                3                 29                   32
Heal                 -1                  0                    0
Hide                  5                  8                    8
Intimidate            3                  6                    6
Jump                  4                 25                   26
Listen               -1                  0                    4
Move Silently         5                  8                    8
Open Lock             n/a               n/a                   n/a
Perform               n/a               29                   34
Repair                0                  1                    1
Search                0                  1                    3
Spot                 -1                  0                    2
Swim                  0                  3                    3
Tumble                6                 12                   12
Use Magic Device      n/a               29                   29

Level 1 (Fighter)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Jump (+4)
Skill: Tumble (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Weapon Finesse
Enhancement: Drow Melee Damage I
Enhancement: Fighter Critical Accuracy I
Enhancement: Fighter Toughness I


Level 2 (Bard)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Perform (+5)
Spell (1): Hypnotism
Enhancement: Bard Extra Song I
Enhancement: Fighter Armored Agility I
Enhancement: Bard Haggle I
Enhancement: Bard Perform I


Level 3 (Bard)
Skill: Haggle (+5)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Two Weapon Fighting
Spell (1): Focusing Chant
Enhancement: Bard Lingering Song I
Enhancement: Elven Dexterity I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I


Level 4 (Bard)
Ability Raise: DEX
Skill: Balance (+3)
Skill: Haggle (+2)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Spell (1): Charm Person
Enhancement: Drow Melee Attack I
Enhancement: Bard Charisma I


Level 5 (Bard)
Skill: Haggle (+1)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+4)
Spell (2): Heroism
Spell (2): Blur
Enhancement: Bard Extra Song II
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Attack I


Level 6 (Fighter)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Perform (+0.5)
Feat: (Selected) Force of Personality
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Weapon Focus: Piercing Weapons
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
Enhancement: Fighter Strength I


Level 7 (Bard)
Skill: Balance (+3)
Skill: Haggle (+2)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Spell (1): Grease
Spell (2): Suggestion
Enhancement: Bard Haggle II
Enhancement: Bard Perform II


Level 8 (Bard)
Ability Raise: CHA
Skill: Use Magic Device (+7)
Enhancement: Bard Lingering Song II
Enhancement: Bard Improved Spell Penetration I


Level 9 (Bard)
Skill: Balance (+2)
Skill: Haggle (+2)
Skill: Perform (+2)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Weapon Fighting
Spell (2): Blindness
Spell (3): Haste
Spell (3): Good Hope
Enhancement: Bard Extra Song III
Enhancement: Bard Balance I


Level 10 (Bard)
Skill: Balance (+3)
Skill: Haggle (+1)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Tumble (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Spell (3): Charm Monster
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Attack II


Level 11 (Bard)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Haggle (+1)
Skill: Jump (+3)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Enhancement: Bard Improved Spell Penetration II


Level 12 (Bard)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Haggle (+1)
Skill: Jump (+3)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Piercing Weapons
Spell (3): Displacement
Spell (4): Freedom of Movement
Spell (4): Otto's Sphere of Dancing
Enhancement: Bard Extra Song IV


Level 13 (Fighter)
Skill: Jump (+2)
Skill: Perform (+0.5)
Enhancement: Fighter Armor Mastery I


Level 14 (Bard)
Skill: Haggle (+2)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Perform (+2)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+2)
Spell (4): Hold Monster
Enhancement: Bard Lingering Song III


Level 15 (Fighter)
Skill: Jump (+2)
Skill: Swim (+1)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Greater Two Weapon Fighting
Feat: (Selected) Power Critical
Enhancement: Fighter Critical Accuracy II
Enhancement: Bard Perform III
Enhancement: Fighter Toughness II


Level 16 (Bard)
Ability Raise: CHA
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Haggle (+2)
Skill: Perform (+2)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+2)
Enhancement: Bard Charisma II


Level 17 (Bard)
Skill: Balance (+4)
Skill: Haggle (+1)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Spell (4): Dominate Person
Spell (5): Greater Heroism
Spell (5): Shadow Walk
Enhancement: Bard Virtuoso I


Level 18 (Bard)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Haggle (+1)
Skill: Jump (+3)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Luck of Heroes
Spell (5): Mass Suggestion
Enhancement: Bard Lingering Song IV


Level 19 (Bard)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Haggle (+1)
Skill: Jump (+3)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Enhancement: Elven Dexterity II


Level 20 (Bard)
Ability Raise: DEX
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Haggle (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Tumble (+2)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Spell (1): Detect Secret Doors
Spell (5): Greater Dispel Magic
Spell (6): Heroes Feast
Spell (6): Mass Charm Monster
Enhancement: Bard Haggle III
Enhancement: Fighter Jump I

And btw I am very aware of its squishyness lol

[Mr.Krauss]

actually just looking at it its looking petty gimpy

but how do i fix it?

[Humperdink]

Forgive me if I presume too much or too little about your level of knowledge on playing a bard. Short version- generally speaking a bard should focus on being good at melee (Warchanter) or crowd control/enchanter (Spellsinger) as their main focus and decent at other abilities. If you want to focus on melee you have to work to over come the lower hit points that bards get by packing on HP through gear and feats along with a variety of defensive measures. This is how I built my melee focused drow bard with dual rapiers:

My drow version looks like this:

16bard/2fighter/2rogue

Stats:

Strength 16 + 5 level up + 2 tome + 6 item + 1 Fighter + 2 Rage Spell = 32 (or you could do 16 + 4 level up + 6 item +2 rage spell = 30)

Dexterity 16 + 2 tome + 2 racial + 6 item = 24 (you could do a single +1 Tome or use 1 level up point to get base 17 for 16 + 1 tome/level up + 1 racial + 6 item = 22)

Constitution 14 + 2 tome + 6 item + 2 Rage Spell = 24 (or you could do base 16 with no tome)
Intelligence 10 + 2 tome = 14
Wisdom 8 + 6 item = 14
Charisma 14 + 2 class + 2 tome + 6 item = 24

Feats:

Toughness, Weapon Focus Piercing, Power Attack, Improved Critical Piercing, TWF, Improved TWF, Force of Personality, Maximize, Extend

My characters current stats at level 17 (14bard/2fighter/1rogue) buffed with GH, Rage, and Haste:

348HP with a +6 Con item, all ranks of racial and fighter Toughness, 20 points from the Minos Legens helmet, and 20 points from an Improved False Life item.

With a +4 resistance item on and Voice of the Master:

24 Fortitude save
28 Reflex save
25 Will save

With the Cartouche necklace from Delara's Tomb, GH, and Voice of the Master I'm at a 37 UMD which is an 85% chance to land a Heal scroll and 100% on a raise dead scroll. My stats and feat choices are a little tilted towards a Warchanter that can do a couple of things on the side. For a more pure melee Warchanter, swap Force of Personality and Maximize for Greater TWF feat and Oversized TWF, raise your constitution slightly and drop your charisma. Evasion helps you save HP by bypassing big spikes of incoming damage from Area of Effect magic (fireballs and such) assuming you make your Reflex save. Use Extended Displacement and Stoneskin Wands (Useable with the UMD skill) for protection from incoming physical damage.

[BoBoDaClown]

I don't want to be rude, but I didn't have time to read the whole build, so some assumptions are made...

Weapon Finesse = bad. Waste of a feat.

You need str.
You don't need charisma (cos you won't land spells with a splash).

So,
Str = 16
Dex = 15-17 depending if you can get tomes (I would go 15).
Con = 14+

Feats:
1) Toughness
3) Weapon FOc: Pierce (for warchanter)
6) PA
9) TWF
12) ITWF
15) Extend
18) GTWF

That doesn't include Fighter feats and isn't necessarily in order, but it shows the other feats you picked aren't really needed.

So do you really want 4 levels of fighter? Or some evasion, sneak attack, and some trap skills = 2 levels of fighter and 2 levels of rogue.

Good luck

[Humperdink]

I agree with what Bobo said and that's why my build generally reflects that (such as Strength based, no Weapon Finesse feat). The only reason I started with a slightly higher Charisma is because I wanted to reach a 40UMD for high self sufficiency without grinding for raid gear or Greensteel as this guy is about 7th down on my list of characters to play. I'm slowly soloing him up to 20. You could always use a Lesser Reincarnation and readjust his charisma downwards once you have achieved raid gear that helps with that (assuming that is a goal) or just start with a lower Charisma as most Warchanters do if he is going to be a character you play more regularly and focus on and hence will gain the required gear faster.

[BoBoDaClown]

I agree with what Bobo said and that's why my build generally reflects that (such as Strength based, no Weapon Finesse feat). The only reason I started with a slightly higher Charisma is because I wanted to reach a 40UMD for high self sufficiency without grinding for raid gear or Greensteel as this guy is about 7th down on my list of characters to play. I'm slowly soloing him up to 20. You could always use a Lesser Reincarnation and readjust his charisma downwards once you have achieved raid gear that helps with that (assuming that is a goal) or just start with a lower Charisma as most Warchanters do if he is going to be a character you play more regularly and focus on and hence will gain the required gear faster.

I didn't notice you had posted

Pipped me - I'm slow ;p

[Anderei]

Starting Constitution should be 14, at very least 12.
Weaponfinesse is IMHO not so a great idea on a mostly bard, since it does make your to-hit dependant on dex, but not your damage.
Dont start with fighter as first class, always start with the class that gets most skills in your build, in your case thats the bard.

kind regards,

[Humperdink]

I didn't notice you had posted

Pipped me - I'm slow ;p

heh heh no problem.

[Rav'n]

Unless you're dead set on Evasion... I like the 18/2 Bard/Fighter Split. Bobo's Feat choice is good... but personally.. I would take Extend earlier and wait on the TWF feats until level 9. Grab a Great Axe/Falcion turn on the Power attack and Swing away...

Personally I level as
1-Bard (always start w/ Bard)
2-Fighter
3-9 Bard
10-Fighter
11-14 bard

At this point you can see if you Really need the next 2 levels of Fighter.

If you want Evasion, take Rogue at level 1 then adjust everything down. You won't need you 2nd Rogue level until level 10-12.

[BoBoDaClown]

Unless you're dead set on Evasion... I like the 18/2 Bard/Fighter Split. Bobo's Feat choice is good... but personally.. I would take Extend earlier and wait on the TWF feats until level 9. Grab a Great Axe/Falcion turn on the Power attack and Swing away...

Personally I level as
1-Bard (always start w/ Bard)
2-Fighter
3-9 Bard
10-Fighter
11-14 bard

At this point you can see if you Really need the next 2 levels of Fighter.

If you want Evasion, take Rogue at level 1 then adjust everything down. You won't need you 2nd Rogue level until level 10-12.

Yeah, I'd ,probably take extend very early, using a fighter feat to pick up one of the other feats, but I couldn't be bothered laying it all out

[Rav'n]

I agree... I'm bad about giving half the information...because I hate typing it all out.

[Mr.Krauss]

Thanks guys for all he input. Definatley gonna drop the Finesse and pour more into strength and con. See ya round! Will prolly stay pure or drop two fighter for two rogue.