This server is half dead? o.o;

[die]

Sadly it is true people are TR and all new people do is slow them down in there eyes and waist xp pots.

The way alot see it is why wait for a PUG to form when can grab 1 friend or solo it and be done faster than waiting for it to fill.

It is the sad reality of things atm but is the truth.

/signed kahzadoom is 14 now on my TR and have soloed the entier thing other than help with the dragons in tor{soled too them}. a madstone with a couple guys and thats it im on a roll now i want too see if i can solo to 20 .. i know i can my sorc i left at 15 .. started playing him again and went all the way too 2o with no groups

[Razcar]

This is why the game will eventually die out. It is not all that inviting to new blood. I completely understand why people want to short man quests on their 5th character, but it isnt good for the long term health of the game.

Yes. But that is up to Turbine. They've created this situation, with death penalty, TR's and dungeon scaling. They need to bring in a mechanic that creates a reason for veterans to invite new players, beyond the goodness of their hearts. As it is now vets mostly just stand to loose.

Maybe they should take away the the death penalty and instead put in a 5% xp bonus for 5 people and 10% for 6 people in a group. Nothing too serious, but less risk and a stronger incentive to invite unknowns.

[Pyromaniac]

If the death penalty was individual vs group then there would be more of an incentive for grouping.

[Dirac]

They need to bring in a mechanic that creates a reason for veterans to invite new players, beyond the goodness of their hearts. As it is now vets mostly just stand to loose.

Maybe they should take away the the death penalty and instead put in a 5% xp bonus for 5 people and 10% for 6 people in a group. Nothing too serious, but less risk and a stronger incentive to invite unknowns.

This is not to pick on you, but this has been brought up by several people. It seems to make sense, but I strongly disagree. To keep new people in the game, you do not want to create incentives to force vets to play with new people. You want to create incentives where the vets who play with new players want to play with new players by the goodness of their hearts. You want to keep new people away from other vets (for a while), which is kind of the system we have now.

[begbie]

Here's an example of "Why I don't enjoy running with newer folkes".

I'm in VoN 5.. the party has been puttering with the puzzle for 15 minutes... I (and a few others) cleared the WF side... and I come to help do puzzle.

There are 5 people countering eachother's work and nothing is getting done.

I know that the party does not have a clue and so I take over.

Now, I have this mage who is told 7 times to stop messing with the puzzle... I literally decide to quit, say so and finally the party gets mad enogh that they tell the caster to get out of my way.

5 minutes later the puzzle is done.

15 minutes later the party is still trying to figure out who picked up the Signet Ring and well... that was enough for me..

I bailed.

..................

This is nothing new, many of us can do VoN 5 in 15 minutes... it's really easy.. I have no beef teaching new folkes, but considering that this is the 7th VoN like this in 3 weeks.. well, I will no longer join PuG groups where I don't know the guilds/players involved.

Just not worth my time.

[RTN]

<Von 5 story deleted for brevity>
Well, I will no longer join PuG groups where I don't know the guilds/players involved.

Just not worth my time.

I feel your pain. Here's something I posted a while back on my guild forum, with a few revisions for clarity. It's long enough ago that those involved shouldn't get their feelings hurt and have probably forgotten. All names redacted.

*************
"X, Y and I ran a pug shroud late last night. We're all now L17, with X (Wiz) and Y (fighter) on their reincs and I'm on my assassin.

It was hilarious.

Part 1, the last ranger to join only seemed to have a bow and spent his time shooting arrows at the portal. He didn't appear to be activating multishot as frequently as he could have been (if at all).

Part 2, a tempest ranger decided to be helpful and kited away the cat boss before it was prepped. Finally chased him down and every boss got prepped. We even called it out as each one got prepped. Several minutes later, with everyone waiting for the Raid Leader to say kill (and in what order he wanted), the RL finally asked "So who do we have left to prep?" D'oh! X who was on crystal duty finally called out which to kill (Y and I had already gotten tired of waiting and were already killing) The noobs CHEERed when we succeeded.

Part 3, one person said he has problems with the puzzles. Fair enough. We got in, only to find out that maybe half the people couldn't solve their puzzles and most wouldn't admit it. I was going for water and X and Y ended up telling me places that couldn't seem to solve their puzzles so I could pick the locks. As I wrote above, most of them wouldn't call for help for some reason or they'd say "help" without saying where they were. I think the wall finally went up because two people were stuck in a 3x3(!!!) and wouldn't ask for help. Picked and solved it in a couple secs once we figured out where the problem was. Someone said "you guys make it look so easy." Umm...is that because it is? People literally clapped and cheered when we succeeded.

Part 4, we zoned in (completely overbuffed) and waited for the RL to tell us to pull. Nothing... so I pulled anyway. Everyone rushed in for Harry and three melee went down before Harry's graphic even appeared (one was a tissue paper rogue, I forget one and the other was the fighter RL who should have had more HP). The cleric, bard and FvS couldn't keep up the healing and only 7 or 8 of the party are left standing after Round 1. Devils popped...someone had on fearsome armor. Argh! Round 2 (Bard and FvS still alive with only about 4 melee to heal...maybe less since the ranged ranger was still alive). We all went down because they still couldn't keep up. As we're in the penalty box waiting for the last couple ppl to die, someone said "It was the lag we had." Only problem was that there was no lag. None at all. There was certainly no DPS lag (even in part 1!).

Part 5. What part 5?

Frustrating, but hilariously bad. "
************

Yep, no more PUG shrouds (or other raids) for us unless we're providing the healing or know the guilds/people involved.

And to be fair, X had checked MyDDO while we waited for the party to arrive (took forever and a day even after people joined the party) because he was bored and warned us that most of the DPS seemed to be very low in HP. Oh well, at least we got a funny story out of it.

[Razcar]

This is not to pick on you, but this has been brought up by several people. It seems to make sense, but I strongly disagree. To keep new people in the game, you do not want to create incentives to force vets to play with new people. You want to create incentives where the vets who play with new players want to play with new players by the goodness of their hearts. You want to keep new people away from other vets (for a while), which is kind of the system we have now.

I see your point, that vets might add new players in their groups as place holders only. The crucial thing here is balance. You use the word "force", which is very important here. If vets felt that they were forced to fill their parties, it will surely end up in a bad way.

Instead, the bonus has to be quite small, to not make vets feel that they are forced. Then the vets that are on the fence about including newbies might do so, but the hardcore speedgrinders won't bother, as it still will not be the optimal time-to-xp ratio. But most importantly, take away the death xp penalty, a clear disincentive.

[scampb]

I started on the US servers, specifically Thelanis, a month ago. I levelled my bard up mostly through pugs, and my ranger is at 18 mostly through pugs with some guild groups. I find it faster levelling in guild groups. Everyone tends to know what quest you are doing, where it is and whether or not they have access to it. Many is the time I've waited in a pug x mins for someone to turn up and not be able to get into the area/quest

Pugs can also be much slower to fill as the leaders quite often need a lot of babysitting in the form of specific classes, no one really needs a healer for low level quests yet people won't move without one. As a guild group we ran through the whole of Gianthold on elite with no rogue or healer, suggest doing that on a pug and you'd have no chance (I honestly think that some people don't know you can buy scrolls/potions/wands.

The only levels I've seen any lull in groups are around 13-16. Looking at LFMs at the moment there are 10 sub level 10 groups advertising, hardly dieing imo.

1) If you select the quest in the list when putting up an LFM and it is a p2p quest then f2p cannot join unless they have the pack. There is a symbol over the quest asking them to buy it. That solves that problem. 2) I PUG...ALL THE TIME... and often without a healer and or rogue....if it can be done. If no healer then I tell everyone to make sure they have pots/wands etc before we start, play smart, fight together and we can wand whip between battles. It all depends on how you lead a party and communicate. This game is about team work and I enjoy meeting new people in game and completing quests when it has been a challenge. I totally understand those TR'ing not wanting to PUG due to time and loss of xp bonuses but outside of that we need, as a community, to PUG up with the new people and help them learn the quests so they can do the same in return. Otherwise we will kill the game we all love to play. By the way, we will have lots of opportunity to PUG with newbies will the commercials coming out now. Should be an influx of fresh blood.

[Lorien_the_First_One]

This is why the game will eventually die out. It is not all that inviting to new blood. I completely understand why people want to short man quests on their 5th character, but it isnt good for the long term health of the game.

Ya, that's what they said 3 years ago.

[scampb]

Yes. But that is up to Turbine. They've created this situation, with death penalty, TR's and dungeon scaling. They need to bring in a mechanic that creates a reason for veterans to invite new players, beyond the goodness of their hearts. As it is now vets mostly just stand to loose.

Maybe they should take away the the death penalty and instead put in a 5% xp bonus for 5 people and 10% for 6 people in a group. Nothing too serious, but less risk and a stronger incentive to invite unknowns.

Hey, i like this idea. An extra 10% if 6 start and finish the quest. That could work. Get rid of the 10% no death bonus then death by newbie will not matter. Turbine, I hope you are reading this. This is an awesome idea!!

[sigtrent]

Its just par for the course on an older game, its just unusual to have so many new players.

I find myself just being lazy and not filling groups from pugville. Short manning is as easy as a full group in most quests, sometimes easier. The main thing is I don't want to wait around for people, and that is pretty normal for pugs. I'f I'm leading I won't do the "find your way out before we finish" kind of thing. If I lead I make sure the whole flock gets in and gets finished (if that is possible).

I'll happily join pugs, typically they are fine and if they aren't and I must strongman the quest I do that, but I don't have that responsibility of making sure everyone else has a fulsome experience.

I think the thing we have here is that its easy not to pug and pugging can be fraught with peril so folks mostly play with those they know if anyone is on who they know.

But here's the thing. If a vet is going to go pugging I think they somewhat owe it to the new folks to be understanding. But there is no requirement for guilded and well established players to go pugging if they have better options. New players don't need vets to show them the ropes, they can and will figure it out for themselves.

[Dirac]

I see your point, that vets might add new players in their groups as place holders only. The crucial thing here is balance. You use the word "force", which is very important here. If vets felt that they were forced to fill their parties, it will surely end up in a bad way.

Instead, the bonus has to be quite small, to not make vets feel that they are forced. Then the vets that are on the fence about including newbies might do so, but the hardcore speedgrinders won't bother, as it still will not be the optimal time-to-xp ratio. But most importantly, take away the death xp penalty, a clear disincentive.

Ok, I'm all about balance. Balance is good. Maybe 5% for a full group.

A couple general things:

1. I do not support taking away the no-death xp bonus unless they increase all xp 10%. Vets working on multiply-TR'd characters are very sensitive about accross-the-board xp hits.

2. It is very important that new people do not have the impression that vets are responsible for their fun. People are responsible for their own fun: vet or not.

[Nouda_EU]

hmmz my 2cp

at cap: I low man Reaver/Queen/Von/Titan

I selectively pug Abbot/Epic i.e. if there is a name in the lfm I recognise I will prolly join

I pug Hounds/Vod/Shrouds usually when i have my bases covered buy friends from user chat channels. If you play about my time you might find your self in a very oddly formed group by myself.

The more spots I pug out the more selective I am with who i accept if im puging out 2 mele spots then ill accept anyone. If I am Pugging out +6 im more picky.

wrt to leveling

Im happy to pug out anything below level 16 out and out pug... Ill also join lfms for level +16 content but wont really make my own..

That said it depends on my mood. I puged out mindsunder elite the other day and got a great party .

Low level is where it gets a bit dodgey...

If I have an xp pot ticking them inn zerging. This isn't pug friendly so ill solo of groups with guildies friends

If i have time to stand about then ill pug out spots on my FvS i did this constantly because i knew I could solo now im leveling meles i tend to do it a bit less but if i have 3 guildies ill pug out the rest of the spot to give other people a chance

My main issue is i tend to go afk a lot and thought my guildies and friends put up with this pugs can get a bit grumpy about this

[Yazston_the_Invoker]

Ok, here's my reasoning:

I have 3 toons in the mid level (10-12) range, and the following are reasons I am not usually PuGing

1) I am used to soloing...it's my way to learn the quests, and it allows me to jump in and do the quests quicker, since I am a very casual player, rather than waiting for a group, and it allows me to take things at my own pace, so as to learn quests without having to worry about slowing anyone down.

2) I deplore the chaos of most groups...I like to know what's going on, and because of that, I prefer to group with people I know and trust. (and who won't tell me to pull the middle lever with the bright circle around it in Delera's...*cough*troop*cough*) That's not to say that PuGs are bad, but there are too many variables, and often I either don't get to enjoy the quest, or I get frustrated with someone that either doesn't listen or has a bad attitude.

3) When I do try to PuG, the following happens:

LFM lv8-10 for Xorian Cipher...states that they need 3DPS, 1 trap, and 1 healer.

I decide to apply with my Exploiter ranger (Rngr7/Monk1/Rogue1)...I have great TWF DPS with my dual dwarven axes, and I can get a DD of 34 easily on my own.

I say: "I'm new to the quest, but always wanted to try it. I can do good DPS, and I can do traps"

The response: "No, we're waiting for rogue."

10 minutes later, I am jumping into another quest solo, and I get another tell from the leader: "sorry, just filled" Seriously? you don't even want to know what my DD is before you decide to wait for a rogue? you don't want to know if I am a TWF, THF, or Ranged ranger? It reminds me of 4 years ago when everyone thought that a multiclass was automatically gimp... Sad thing is, if it did not require 4 players, I would be willing to bet that I could solo it anyway... (not positive, since I've never done it, but I have yet to meet the same-level-or-lower quest that I could not solo on normal with my Exploiter)





I would definitely be open to grouping, but it's tough to find like-minded people to group with when you have limited time like I do, which is why I usually stick to my friends or my guild.

[gwlech]

Sadly, soloing vs grouping for most content is faster, cheaper and less frustrating to me. Desert, GH, Orchard...all mid game, and easy to solo vs pugging squishies that thrive on needing others to do a quest.

With that said, I know that alot of people in this level range are soloing and quite frequently anonymous.

I have found that more often than not. people joining lfm's are leeches that don't do much to contribute to a group, which is sad.

I only group low/mid level in order to chapter farm certain quest chains, and thats simply because I need someone to hold the door. Every now and then someone comes along who is able to contribute fairly well.