Looking for 32 pt Palladin - pure builds - for each race

[Pehtis]

Having spent a day thinking about rolling out a 32 pt paladin I must agree that it is seriously stat intensive to be fully effective.

It's a case of well ....
CHA say 17 (with +3 tome) is needed for max class perks like DM 4;
Str say 16 - 18 (or thereabouts) to take advantage of solid DPS (swap Str for DEX for finesse builds which I think is lame anyway);
INT 13 for Combat Expertise (xtra 5 AC would be handy to any melee build, but seems to be sacrificed in stat building, unless you got tomes lying around. I think 10 should be minimum on most builds to help with a second/third skill like e.g. balance/jump/intim/spot);
DEX 10 ( I hate leaving it at 8 and receiving -1 armor class penalty although this is definitely not a biggy. Just know if you get knocked down you are not getting up any time soon);
Wis 8 (you also need to get Wisdom to at least 10 via tomes +6 get enchant item from somewhere).

Oh if want dual wielding you need Base Dex at 15 minimum but 17 is a must for feat chain. Plus you need base Str 12 for OTWF.

The CHA stats which is normally a dump stat for melee builds is what makes a PURE Paladin building a real struggle.

I've read Junta's posts as well as a couple of others with some interest. I was especially amused to note the links to certain players 34pt and 36pt builds who also tome up their builds with +3 and +4 tomes for a more effective paladin . Gosh I don't understand how 28 pt builds even contemplate rolling one of these out having read these.

Now remind me why I should roll out an end game oriented pure Pally again with only 32 points? hehehe

BUT that is what I am here to do (yes I am a glutton to punishment).

However it seems to me (I hope I am mistaken) it is just too difficult to roll out a PURE (re capstone oriented) paladin character with a hope of Divine Might 4 (DM4) unless you are Drow. All other races require severe stat sacrifices to achieve it. Humans after some stat sacrifices (INT/DEX/WIS) seem to be doable if you want THF with a shot at DM 4.

What about the other Races as pure builds?

Elf - 2HF vs 2WF
Halfling - 2HF vs 2WF
Dwarf - 2HF vs 2WF
Warforged - 2HF vs 2WF
Human - 2WF??

It seems without a huge investments in +3 & +4 tomes on many of their stats they may not be worthwhile.

Has anyone done one of these Races as a Pure Paladin build. I'd like to know your thoughts on them.

Thanks for reading anyway.

[78mackson]

why on earth would u need dm4 on a tank-build... ...and why strive to be pure unless u seek dps...
...and if its DPS u seek then u can´t afford to have a good protective aura anyway due to AP-restraints.. ...and sword n board isnt DPS anyway.... ....and CE on a pure paladin.. eurm.. now I really want to see your planned intimidate-score...

my advice.. follow ONE of the guides u read, dont mix em; and then evaluate the build ones your lvl20(and got all the gear and played it for 3-4 months.. :P): What do YOU think the build lacks, if any?

[Shaftronics]

I have a TWF Drow paladin with no tomes to back him up, making sacrifices to make sure I have 17 Dex for GTWF and having 18 Cha with a +1 Cha tome I pulled out recently. So far, the to-hit is slightly bad sure, though fixable and manageable with the correct weapons. So far, with improved critical and critical smites and the chance of 2 critical smites in a single attempt, along with self-sustainability and support capabilities make my paladin a solid choice to play. Especially with my current Hunter of the Dead PrE, which allows me to be immune to stuff like negative levels via energy drain and using my Cure Diseases turns for a "restoration" effect, once again, adding up to my supportive abilities.

I'd say its great so far to play. Good DPS, good self-sustainability, great saves and with limited spells that make you self-sufficient, such as resist energy and at level 13, Divine Favor gives +4 to attack and Damage, along with Divine Might II which gives another +4 to damage.

Sure, they're temporary, but that's not exactly a bad thing; They also run out as fights are done. You don't feel pressured to do something while having buffs on. Of course as your level increases, the fights get longer and you'll have to maintain the buffs, along with keeping the active offensive abilities, namely smiting and divine sacrifice.

Sure, he doesn't have as much jump as my Tempest Fighter, doesn't have evasion, not as much pure strength/DPS, doesn't have any ranged options and due to the stat spread, less con/HP. But at the end of the day, my Paladin has immense burst heals, can save a party from being wiped, bail an incapacitated healer back at 3/4 health in a single Lay on Hands and can walk through Dancing Balls, has fear immunity so I can goddamn hit on those Jariliths without stopping, while my tempest will have a 5% of vorpalling vs a 15-20% of getting feared.

Trust me, there are times where I really want to re-roll my Paladin because of the sheer requirements clashing with my expectations and gameplay. With this said, I'll say the much-repeated advice; You can make a 28-point paladin, sure. Just make sure its a THF build or you can use the Drow and make a perfectly workable tank/THF without tomes, with the int bonus working towards Combat expertise, Dex bonus for AC/no negative AC, and the cha bonus for obvious reasons.

But at the same time, every single time I smite for a grand total of 300 - 500 damage when both smites crit on a single attempt, **** I'm keeping this guy. Every single time I run through save-based spells with self-casting Resist energy (they follow your caster level), I say the same thing. Everytime I manage to run through almost impossible odds due to Unyielding Sovereignty and my 3 Lay on Hands to keep me alive as I carry 5 stones through Evil Outsiders, whom I stun with Censure to reach the closest shrine, even if that happens anyway, since I keep my eyes on the cleric/FvS/healer's red bar, dropping a LoH or Unyielding, keeping an eye on distant tanks, whatever, but the Paladin can help out.

TWF Drow without +2 tomes? Pshaw. Impossible? Nope. Sacrifices? Sure. But they're still **** good.

If you want a build, you first have to decide what you want. DPS or Tank?

Then the break down. If DPS? Sure. TWF or THF? Do I have tomes? Do I have the resources? Do I have Drow to save costs/make it easier?

If I was to say, make a human tank capable of THF whenever he feels like it or when tanking isn't required with minimal sacrifices with 32-points I'd go with the starting stats of...

16 Str (+5 Level ups and Human Adaptiblity)
10 Dex
14 Con
12 Int (Just need a +1 time for combat expertise. Those go for under 15k plat)
8 Wisdom (You only need a +6 item for all spells)
16 Charisma (+2 tome if you really want DM III)

There. Perfectly workable THF/Tank with human, 32-points with as little cost as possible. If you're going full DPS, you can drop the int and focus on more Str, with the KOTC enhancement proc-ing on glancing blows. If its a tank build however, you could drop the THF line since you're occasionally bursting on a single target at a time anyway. But that's just me.

[unbongwah]

INT 13 for Combat Expertise

I don't see many pure paladin tanks, probably because they can't get their AC as high as, say, a tanking fighter or a monk-splashed build AFAICT; plus they usually don't have a spare feat for CE. So a lot of pure paladin builds I see don't worry about AC and just focus on DPS, making INT a dump stat.

DEX 10 ( I hate leaving it at 8 and receiving -1 armor class penalty although this is definitely not a biggy.

THF pure paladins usually dump DEX too. Equip a DEX-boosting item if you really want an extra point or three of AC.

Wis 8 (you also need to get Wisdom to at least 10 via tomes +6 get enchant item from somewhere).

You need WIS 14 for lvl 4 spells. So WIS 8 + 6 item and you're fine. Only a WF pally with WIS 6 would need a +2 WIS tome.

Plus you need base Str 12 for OTWF.

Pure paladins usually can't spare a feat for OTWF; and the extra +2 to-hit (eventually) doesn't make a difference. Just keep a light weapon in inventory for your offhand if you really need the extra to-hit.

However it seems to me (I hope I am mistaken) it is just too difficult to roll out a PURE (re capstone oriented) paladin character with a hope of Divine Might 4 (DM4) unless you are Drow.

If you start with CHA 16, add a +3 CHA tome, and put your final level-up point into CHA, you're fine. Now, if you want to hit CHA 20 without tomes, then you might be in trouble.

I agree it's tough to make a pure paladin without tomes who hits base CHA 20 without gimping your other stats. Which is why you either plan your build around tomes or you give up DM4.

[Pehtis]

why on earth would u need dm4 on a tank-build... ...and why strive to be pure unless u seek dps...
...and if its DPS u seek then u can´t afford to have a good protective aura anyway due to AP-restraints.. ...and sword n board isnt DPS anyway.... ....and CE on a pure paladin.. eurm.. now I really want to see your planned intimidate-score...

my advice.. follow ONE of the guides u read, dont mix em; and then evaluate the build ones your lvl20(and got all the gear and played it for 3-4 months.. :P): What do YOU think the build lacks, if any?

Hehehe to quote a worthy line from the music band Queen "I want it all, and I want it now" .

Seriously I do understand the trade off requirements and was simply musing in my post of the thoughts when contemplating the build. (I can dream can't I ).

[Pehtis]

If you want a build, you first have to decide what you want. DPS or Tank?

Then the break down. If DPS? Sure. TWF or THF? Do I have tomes? Do I have the resources? Do I have Drow to save costs/make it easier?

If I was to say, make a human tank capable of THF whenever he feels like it or when tanking isn't required with minimal sacrifices with 32-points I'd go with the starting stats of...

16 Str (+5 Level ups and Human Adaptiblity)
10 Dex
14 Con
12 Int (Just need a +1 time for combat expertise. Those go for under 15k plat)
8 Wisdom (You only need a +6 item for all spells)
16 Charisma (+2 tome if you really want DM III)

There. Perfectly workable THF/Tank with human, 32-points with as little cost as possible. If you're going full DPS, you can drop the int and focus on more Str, with the KOTC enhancement proc-ing on glancing blows. If its a tank build however, you could drop the THF line since you're occasionally bursting on a single target at a time anyway. But that's just me.

That's pretty much what I've narrowed it down to. Decided to trial a Human with 15 Str, 17 Cha because I figure it will be many months until I can ever afford any +3 tomes (I can't even afford the 2-4M plat for +2 tomes) and no chance for +4 ones.

Thanks for the appraisal of your current Drow Paladin. I will definitely be toying with one of them a little later on.

I do wonder however why the other races such as Elf or Halfling are not being considered.

[mws2970]

This is Junt's guide. He is considered the authority on paladin builds.

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=218542

[Aerendil]

The more I try to plan out a pure Paladin build, the more I think INT is utterly useless. Forget Combat Expertise entirely is my advice to you. You won't have the feat to spare, especially if TWF, and it won't make a whole lot of difference on your AC anyways (especially if pure). Best AC you'll be able to get would be low-to-mid 50s unless you do a LOT of farming for the best gear imagineable, so it would simply be easier to go all out dps and just LoH yourself back to full when low hps.

Races - personally I'd go either Elf (scimitar), Drow (rapier), or Human (khopesh).
Feats = toughness, TWF, ITWF, GTWF, imp. crit, power attack, and possibly extend.

[Shaftronics]

That's pretty much what I've narrowed it down to. Decided to trial a Human with 15 Str, 17 Cha because I figure it will be many months until I can ever afford any +3 tomes (I can't even afford the 2-4M plat for +2 tomes) and no chance for +4 ones.

Thanks for the appraisal of your current Drow Paladin. I will definitely be toying with one of them a little later on.

I do wonder however why the other races such as Elf or Halfling are not being considered.

Human with 15 str and 17 Cha seems workable. +1 Str tome and a +1 Cha tome in the early stages would easily make him pretty good, with DM III and an even strength and those aren't at all expensive. I do agree that a Paladin tank, though workable, will require immense gear and I'd rather you, as a beginner like myself, try a THF Paladin build to pretty much just learn the ropes. Even when training a TWF paladin, a THF weapon will be better until at least level 4-6, due to the lack of to-hit. Most experienced rangers do the same thing. =p

32-point build elves are perfectly fine. Its just that the drow racial bonuses do not count towards the build points required because the bonuses are added after spending the build points.

For example, if you want to start off with 17 cha on a Drow, you require 7 build points out of 28. On an elf, you require 13 out of 32 build points. Ironically stat-wise, this already puts them slightly ahead than elves, since you can make up for the con deficiency more than the elves do.

That, added with their +2 dex bonuses, naturally make them great as TWF Paladins fundamentally.

[Quikster]

That's pretty much what I've narrowed it down to. Decided to trial a Human with 15 Str, 17 Cha because I figure it will be many months until I can ever afford any +3 tomes (I can't even afford the 2-4M plat for +2 tomes) and no chance for +4 ones.

Thanks for the appraisal of your current Drow Paladin. I will definitely be toying with one of them a little later on.

I do wonder however why the other races such as Elf or Halfling are not being considered.

It will be a long time before you can afford a +3 tome considering they are all bound in the current game.

17 in any stat is pretty intense build point wise, might want to rethink that. The diminishing return is just to great at that point.

[lord_of_rage]

Human with 15 str and 17 Cha seems workable. +1 Str tome and a +1 Cha tome in the early stages would easily make him pretty good, with DM III and an even strength and those aren't at all expensive. I do agree that a Paladin tank, though workable, will require immense gear and I'd rather you, as a beginner like myself, try a THF Paladin build to pretty much just learn the ropes. Even when training a TWF paladin, a THF weapon will be better until at least level 4-6, due to the lack of to-hit. Most experienced rangers do the same thing. =p

32-point build elves are perfectly fine. Its just that the drow racial bonuses do not count towards the build points required because the bonuses are added after spending the build points.

For example, if you want to start off with 17 cha on a Drow, you require 7 build points out of 28. On an elf, you require 13 out of 32 build points. Ironically stat-wise, this already puts them slightly ahead than elves, since you can make up for the con deficiency more than the elves do.

That, added with their +2 dex bonuses, naturally make them great as TWF Paladins fundamentally.

A human does not need a 17 starting cha. A twf pure human 32pt is best at a 16str 15dex 12 con 8int 8 wis 16 cha. If you go thf then drop dex to a 10 and put the points into con. Humans have human adaptability. Those enhancements allow you to put a +1 into two different stats. What I would do is go with the above stats and simply put the last lvl point into cha at 20. That takes you to a 20 cha with a +3 tome. A 16 str +5 is 21 so unless you planned to use a human adapt point for str to get a 22 you arnt losing anything. When you get your +4 tome lesser res to reset your stats its that simple.

Personally to hit isnt an issue low lvl if you use the angers step set or the pathfinders set from korthos with the insight goggles. All my twf chars dual wield right out of the gate and I never have much of an issue.

[lord_of_rage]

I have a TWF Drow paladin with no tomes to back him up, making sacrifices to make sure I have 17 Dex for GTWF and having 18 Cha with a +1 Cha tome I pulled out recently. So far, the to-hit is slightly bad sure, though fixable and manageable with the correct weapons. So far, with improved critical and critical smites and the chance of 2 critical smites in a single attempt, along with self-sustainability and support capabilities make my paladin a solid choice to play. Especially with my current Hunter of the Dead PrE, which allows me to be immune to stuff like negative levels via energy drain and using my Cure Diseases turns for a "restoration" effect, once again, adding up to my supportive abilities.

I'd say its great so far to play. Good DPS, good self-sustainability, great saves and with limited spells that make you self-sufficient, such as resist energy and at level 13, Divine Favor gives +4 to attack and Damage, along with Divine Might II which gives another +4 to damage.

Sure, they're temporary, but that's not exactly a bad thing; They also run out as fights are done. You don't feel pressured to do something while having buffs on. Of course as your level increases, the fights get longer and you'll have to maintain the buffs, along with keeping the active offensive abilities, namely smiting and divine sacrifice.

Sure, he doesn't have as much jump as my Tempest Fighter, doesn't have evasion, not as much pure strength/DPS, doesn't have any ranged options and due to the stat spread, less con/HP. But at the end of the day, my Paladin has immense burst heals, can save a party from being wiped, bail an incapacitated healer back at 3/4 health in a single Lay on Hands and can walk through Dancing Balls, has fear immunity so I can goddamn hit on those Jariliths without stopping, while my tempest will have a 5% of vorpalling vs a 15-20% of getting feared.

Trust me, there are times where I really want to re-roll my Paladin because of the sheer requirements clashing with my expectations and gameplay. With this said, I'll say the much-repeated advice; You can make a 28-point paladin, sure. Just make sure its a THF build or you can use the Drow and make a perfectly workable tank/THF without tomes, with the int bonus working towards Combat expertise, Dex bonus for AC/no negative AC, and the cha bonus for obvious reasons.

But at the same time, every single time I smite for a grand total of 300 - 500 damage when both smites crit on a single attempt, **** I'm keeping this guy. Every single time I run through save-based spells with self-casting Resist energy (they follow your caster level), I say the same thing. Everytime I manage to run through almost impossible odds due to Unyielding Sovereignty and my 3 Lay on Hands to keep me alive as I carry 5 stones through Evil Outsiders, whom I stun with Censure to reach the closest shrine, even if that happens anyway, since I keep my eyes on the cleric/FvS/healer's red bar, dropping a LoH or Unyielding, keeping an eye on distant tanks, whatever, but the Paladin can help out.

TWF Drow without +2 tomes? Pshaw. Impossible? Nope. Sacrifices? Sure. But they're still **** good.

If you want a build, you first have to decide what you want. DPS or Tank?

Then the break down. If DPS? Sure. TWF or THF? Do I have tomes? Do I have the resources? Do I have Drow to save costs/make it easier?

If I was to say, make a human tank capable of THF whenever he feels like it or when tanking isn't required with minimal sacrifices with 32-points I'd go with the starting stats of...

16 Str (+5 Level ups and Human Adaptiblity)
10 Dex
14 Con
12 Int (Just need a +1 time for combat expertise. Those go for under 15k plat)
8 Wisdom (You only need a +6 item for all spells)
16 Charisma (+2 tome if you really want DM III)

There. Perfectly workable THF/Tank with human, 32-points with as little cost as possible. If you're going full DPS, you can drop the int and focus on more Str, with the KOTC enhancement proc-ing on glancing blows. If its a tank build however, you could drop the THF line since you're occasionally bursting on a single target at a time anyway. But that's just me.

A kotc "tank" will not have the ac needed to be survivable at high lvl. You dont have the ap's to spare to bulk out bulwark of good. If you go kotc then focus on dps if you are pure.If you are building a paladin"tank' then you go DOS. The problem with DOS builds are they are really tight on feats as a pure build, they are really gear and tome intensive,and intimidate is a cross class skill.Most DOS builds splash 2 lvls of fighter, 2 rogue, or 1 rogue 1fighter.Dont drop the thf line. It does increase dps with all the glancing blow procs.

[Shaftronics]

Well, I did say THF/Tank. I meant THF Or Tank, would be fine with that build. Change it up a bit, and its fine as a KOTC THF build. If you leave the Int at 12, then its fine as an 18/2 DOS Build that has THF Capabilities.

Having THF with KOTC should definitely be a compulsory thing for DPS, though I'm not so sure if it really makes all the difference to a DOS tank.

[lord_of_rage]

Well, I did say THF/Tank. I meant THF Or Tank, would be fine with that build. Change it up a bit, and its fine as a KOTC THF build. If you leave the Int at 12, then its fine as an 18/2 DOS Build that has THF Capabilities.

Having THF with KOTC should definitely be a compulsory thing for DPS, though I'm not so sure if it really makes all the difference to a DOS tank.

No your stats would not be optimal for a dos build. A 10 dex is low for a dos build you will not be able to get the most out of your ac in armors esp with low tome use. DM3 on a dos build is really hard to get. APs are very tight and you have to make sacrifices to get dm3. A better solution is a 14 cha with a +2 for dm2. Or a 15 with +3 for dm3 if you really want to attempt that.

Any DOS build should have a dps option either thf or twf. If not you limit your effectiveness in groups.