Multiclass Prejudice?

[Syntax42]

I'm level 10. My build is based on Axesinger. Someone denied me a group and at least had the decency to tell me it was because I'm playing a "mutt" build, according to him. Is this kind of prejudice common on this server? Is there a lot of prejudice against multiclassing at 20? Was the leader just a moron who doesn't know classes very well, or some hardcore min/maxer who thinks his way is the only right way?

In my opinion, my build is much more effective than a pure bard. I have my Warchanter enhancement, so my song buff is quite good. I can do decent DPS in a fight, unlike pure bards who I usually see just standing back and either doing nothing to contribute or casting small heals and running out of SP long before we get to a shrine. My build can also do traps and locks almost as well as a rogue. I can understand not wanting someone who multiclasses something like Cleric with Rogue or Wizard with Fighter, but Bards almost have to multiclass to do anything more than standing back during a fight.

[karnokvolrath]

I run into this every once in a while, i wouldnt worry about it. I tend to careless what people build but more how they play. Even a super gimped out mutt can do something right in the right hands, and perfect build in the hands of a goon is worthless. I wouldnt stress at all, play what you like and to your strengths and the people you do want around will remember you and like you to join regardless of build.

[Phidius]

There's a lot of multi-class prejudice on Sarlona, so I deliberately play obscure builds to avoid grouping with these people.

I don't know if it's worse on Thelanis or not, as I've never played there, but let me just ask you this.

Do you really want to play with these people?

[Eladiun]

Influx of new players equals a greater lack of understanding builds. There is a lot of ignorance running around. It was like this before people will start to smarten up again....just takes a little time. Look on the bright-side you probably got saved from being grouped with ignorant noobs anyway...

[mannvar]

I'd say you were better off not getting in that group.

[Stuttrboy]

I'm level 10. My build is based on Axesinger. Someone denied me a group and at least had the decency to tell me it was because I'm playing a "mutt" build, according to him. Is this kind of prejudice common on this server? Is there a lot of prejudice against multiclassing at 20? Was the leader just a moron who doesn't know classes very well, or some hardcore min/maxer who thinks his way is the only right way?

In my opinion, my build is much more effective than a pure bard. I have my Warchanter enhancement, so my song buff is quite good. I can do decent DPS in a fight, unlike pure bards who I usually see just standing back and either doing nothing to contribute or casting small heals and running out of SP long before we get to a shrine. My build can also do traps and locks almost as well as a rogue. I can understand not wanting someone who multiclasses something like Cleric with Rogue or Wizard with Fighter, but Bards almost have to multiclass to do anything more than standing back during a fight.

Sounds like you have some multiclass predjudice too my friend. What's wrong with rogue/cleric? or a fighter/wizard? there are very effective builds that use both those templates. Would you deny those builds just because you can't conceive of their usefulness? Are you sure you aren't the pot calling the kettle black here?

[Ministry]

Influx of new players equals a greater lack of understanding builds. There is a lot of ignorance running around. It was like this before people will start to smarten up again....just takes a little time. Look on the bright-side you probably got saved from being grouped with ignorant noobs anyway...

I agree that this has partially to do with newer players who don't understand the nuances of unique builds, but moreso I believe it has to do with people playing the odds.

If you have a pure build or a multi-class combo that is considered a "de facto" standard, team leaders are more inclined to accept you onto team because there is less of an unknow factor.

People like pure classes in most cases to fill a "role".

If you have a pure build, you will be expected to do this and that and the team and leader know what to expect... there is very little unknown.

When builds fall into a schema that people understand, they are fine, but when you mix things up a little, they panic and / or don't care to ask or understand.

It's easier for team leaders to accept the "normal" builds.

So, a bit of laziness, fear and lack of confidence in themselves and the unknown.

Personally, I love these obscure builds, mostly because I want to see what people with original thought / concepts have done and maybe I can learn something I didn't already know.

I find when playing these different multi-class builds that your best bet is to either run with guildies and / or friends and make your own teams.

Depending on how much time you have, make a few of the typcial builds for getting into raids / runs to get your cash, xp, ingreds, whatever and then keep your unique build(s) for fun.

You get known for your abilities and then when you are accepted on team and see there is a solid balance, as if you could switch to one of your other *special" builds to fill in the void. The old bait and switch technique.

[Jakarr]

I havn't seen much of it on Thelanis compared to Sarlona(I had to take a break b/c of it)

Thou I havn't transfered my Battlemage over here yet to really test it.

But it will always be there the best thing you can do is get out there get in these grps with these ppl and play 120% and get your name known.


As for why I dont fully blame it on the new ppl who are making the grps, I blame it on the new ppl who make these "mutt" builds and play then sooooo badly. You know that 2 sorc/3 Cler/1 Barb you see there in the harbor.

My Advice tell the leader what you can bring to the grp, with my Battlemage I told em my hp my melee damage along with being able to buff/perma haste the party and heal myself, Normally I would get into the grps np that would lisen to me.

[Zachski]

To someone who doesn't frequent the forums, I suppose it could look like a mutt build. Their loss, though.

Chances are, they did you a favor. I wouldn't have partied with someone like that, lol.

[MorningStarSE]

I'm level 10. My build is based on Axesinger. Someone denied me a group and at least had the decency to tell me it was because I'm playing a "mutt" build, according to him. Is this kind of prejudice common on this server? Is there a lot of prejudice against multiclassing at 20? Was the leader just a moron who doesn't know classes very well, or some hardcore min/maxer who thinks his way is the only right way?

In my opinion, my build is much more effective than a pure bard. I have my Warchanter enhancement, so my song buff is quite good. I can do decent DPS in a fight, unlike pure bards who I usually see just standing back and either doing nothing to contribute or casting small heals and running out of SP long before we get to a shrine. My build can also do traps and locks almost as well as a rogue. I can understand not wanting someone who multiclasses something like Cleric with Rogue or Wizard with Fighter, but Bards almost have to multiclass to do anything more than standing back during a fight.

I got an Dwarven AxeSinger too and i heard your pain, people believe you will heal and play song like other bard.. Though i would answer with that 2nd quote :

I run into this every once in a while, i wouldnt worry about it. I tend to careless what people build but more how they play. Even a super gimped out mutt can do something right in the right hands, and perfect build in the hands of a goon is worthless. I wouldnt stress at all, play what you like and to your strengths and the people you do want around will remember you and like you to join regardless of build.

I do that too, i don't care about the character build or gear if the guy know how to play and listen or know stuff, its alright. About the group setup, as long as i got a healer and trapper (when needed), i won't mind, though i usually duo the quest so lately i don't mind about crappy pug..

There's a lot of multi-class prejudice on Sarlona, so I deliberately play obscure builds to avoid grouping with these people.

I don't know if it's worse on Thelanis or not, as I've never played there, but let me just ask you this.

Do you really want to play with these people?

I play on both and i've been refused a few time, though, most of the time when it occur i've a feeling that the group will fail anyway so i don't care.. S and T has different attitude and mood but there are crappy people everywhere...

[Eladiun]

People like pure classes in most cases to fill a "role".

Six of one half dozen of another... It's the same noob leaders who seem to believe that 6 party slots need to be filled with six specific 'roles' or you can't succeed. That rangers aren't dps... That advertise for Tanks...

[Jakarr]

Six of one half dozen of another... It's the same noob leaders who seem to believe that 6 party slots need to be filled with six specific 'roles' or you can't succeed. That rangers aren't dps... That advertise for Tanks...

My new fav thing to do is run quests without a healer.....really boogles there mind.

Specially when I do it on my WF Fighter/Barb that way they have no excuse of why I finished the quest without dieing and having full hp and they died 3 times.

[Syntax42]

Sounds like you have some multiclass predjudice too my friend. What's wrong with rogue/cleric? or a fighter/wizard? there are very effective builds that use both those templates. Would you deny those builds just because you can't conceive of their usefulness? Are you sure you aren't the pot calling the kettle black here?

Certain combinations don't compliment each other and end up taking more away from a character than they add to it. People expect a cleric to heal. Taking half their levels as Rogue and the other half as Cleric hinders their healing and Rogue abilities a lot. If I do come across someone with a slightly odd build, I won't have a problem grouping with them. I like to know their logic behind extremely odd builds first, though. Someone who knows what they are doing will be able to explain their build well. Someone who doesn't will just say they wanted to heal themselves while fighting. The second is the type of person who doesn't contribute to a team very well and I tend to avoid them.

[Ministry]

Six of one half dozen of another... It's the same noob leaders who seem to believe that 6 party slots need to be filled with six specific 'roles' or you can't succeed. That rangers aren't dps... That advertise for Tanks...

Oh, please don't remind me about this... Rangers aren't DPS. That was so prevalent in Mod 3 and 4 and every once in a while I still hear it and shivers run up my spine.

It is twofold... leaders that just don't have the right stuff and those people who made mutt builds that no one could make work and messed it up for others who could.

Everytime I see posts on "ideal" party mixes, I love to send links to the all Rogue or all Bard Shroud completions on hard.

Sure, there are a few raids that definitely benefit from the "ideal" party mix, but as long as you have one or two people filling certain roles, the rest of the party is whatever and is best filled by solid players... who cares about the build.

[Jakarr]

Certain combinations don't compliment each other and end up taking more away from a character than they add to it. People expect a cleric to heal. Taking half their levels as Rogue and the other half as Cleric hinders their healing and Rogue abilities a lot.

Wrong this char can do traps just as good as a pure Rogue, Plus they can do a little healing on the side. And if played right/built right, can DPS melee wise very well.

Granted a rogue shouldn't just be a rogue for the traps(worthless rogues....)

But really you just presented us with a very good example of what the OP is talking about.



Edit: I just noticed you are the OP........yea.....

[Deathseeker]

I think the trick here is to not take it too personally if someone doesn't accept you. There are a variety of reasons they may reject you...

1. Some pug leaders simply want to get through the run as quickly as possible and aren't in the mood to take someone who they might judge as not up to speed on the quest. They use the information available to make that decision, and assumptions based on multiclass may be part of that information, even if it isn't very reliable.

2. Some pug leaders don't have the patience to help guide someone new in a quest, so they try to use a toon's equipment/build to judge whether they are a new player or not. Again, not a very reliable method, but they still try to infer something from it.

3. Some pug leaders don't understand the game well, and only know how to run a quest/raid with a certain party makeup. They may have to offset some of their lack of skill/knowledge by trying to fill out the party "ideally".

You can combat 1 and 2 by letting the pug leader know in advance that you know the quest well and are building a new toon, but that you are more than capable. Many times that will alleviate the concern.

Situation 3 is one you are probably better off having been rejected anyways, as once that quest starts to go south for some reason (ie lag, miscommunication, etc) the leader will probably just blame the party and bail.

I try not to worry about it too much either way. Their pug, their rules. Getting declined is just part of the territory. It's usually much or more about the person doing the declining than it is about the person being declined. And while sometimes the leader risks declining a competent person, sometimes they also have avoided accepting an incompetent person. They use the best information at hand to make that decision, and an assumption on a multiclass is part of that. Just turns out a lot of times those assumptions are incorrect.

[Gercho]

The few times i make a party i take everyone that hits, if there is an odd build, i will ask him about the build once he is in, i have met a few great players that have not standard builds out there...

[cdemeritt]

Yes, There is a prejudice against Multi's... I still hear PuG raid leaders ask about the ranger/rogue/monk... a build that is fairly well known as a solid DPS build... A lot of the prejudice comes from a lack of understanding of the game (being able to look at the combo and seeing that there could be a good mix/bad mix) and having run with a number of horrible multi's. Ran Prey a while back with a group who had a 6wizard 5sorc 8fighter.... Sadly, she didn't have FtS, FW, a decent haste or even the skill to keep up.. not that it mattered much, we still completed, but this build was dead weight... some party leaders don't want to deal with dead weight, and just want to get it done... It happens...

I've played clerics.... Healbots, Offensive casters, etc... great class, but I wanted something a little different.. I wanted a full fledged melee focused Battlecleric... My current project is a 17clr/2monk/1fighter... It looks a little odd at first, but there are reasons for each choice, and I'll be posting the build soon....

However, At lower levels, her healing is gimped (I expect it to be on par with most by cap), I use about half her SP pool just buffing myself... she still has enough SP to get to most shrines, but since I didn't want to deal with the hassles I'd get as a cleric, or subject pugs to her gimped healing at low levels, I've just solo'd her. I expect however, there will be more than one pug I'll not get into, at least until I guild her, and then people will I'm sure be more willing to give her a shot.... As a Multiclass build, you will be turned down more often than a pure build, but usually to groups that would struggle anyways....

[Syntax42]

Wrong this char can do traps just as good as a pure Rogue, Plus they can do a little healing on the side. And if played right/built right, can DPS melee wise very well.

Granted a rogue shouldn't just be a rogue for the traps(worthless rogues....)

But really you just presented us with a very good example of what the OP is talking about.



Edit: I just noticed you are the OP........yea.....

I do agree that a 10 Rogue/10 Cleric could do some decent DPS and a little healing on the side. The problem is that a group is frequently looking for a healer and this character could never fill that role. The 17 cleric/2 Monk/1 Fighter build mentioned above could fill the role of a healer even though it is built for fighting as well. If I'm trying to fill the role of a Bard, those multiclassed levels are not taking anything significant away from my Bard role and they are adding a lot to what my character can do.

Whether we want to admit it or not, everyone is categorized into one of four roles: Healer, Tank, DPS, or Utility. Some builds can fill two or more roles well. Some builds sacrifice too much in one of their roles when multiclassing and can't contribute to a group. Some prejudice is ok and helps to avoid completely bad builds, but expecting pure class builds limits how well your party can perform as individuals contributing to a team.

[GhoulsTouch]

I'm level 10. My build is based on Axesinger. I can understand not wanting someone who multiclasses something like Cleric with Rogue or Wizard with Fighter, but Bards almost have to multiclass to do anything more than standing back during a fight.

Sorry but you are a hypocrit...you are just like them.

Those who denied you are stupid, unless they just made up a white lie to deny you.

Don't pure classes suffer from gimps as well being they in themselves aren't at all self sufficient in everything they could do if they multi-classed?

One of your examples was cleric rogue. Lot's of perks there really especially with all the dangers that a rogue faces for example. If you can understand that bigotry, no reason to complain about the bigotry imposed on you.

Perhaps that's a combo the develpers thought might be looked into and become popular being there is a find trap spell you think? Heavy Armor, usually a flanker decent DPS from sneak, lots of resists and buffs, real decent heals, and offensive casting...awesome support character if you ask me. Might not be the best of the best in everything, but nothing is. Think about that next time that gimp picks your incapped booty up off the ground, or when he wand whips and you find he invested in wand and scroll mastery for awesome heals.

How about a 9 barb 9 rogue 2 fighter? barbarians get the same improved trap sense like rogues do every 3 levels but have damage resistances/reductions for physical and elemental, they have higher hp and can stay in combat when they pull aggro much longer then your normal rogue could. Also if he was taking a beating, he has the speed to run off to recover or catch up after disabling the traps that the party just ran through and zerged ahead with stones in their packs. But the dummy would be like...9 rogue gimp...not knowing that the gimp would be hitting for 4d6 (plus!) extra damage alongside the tank and can take some heavy hits and geared also with power strike well...that sneak attack bonus to hit could be sacrificed for awesome damage.

Wait, did that barb just buff everyone in the party with a stoneskin wand?

Class warfare...give me a break. PnP D&D's prestige classes were designed primarily for multi classed characters. Some people are just old school in thinking that the capstone is always best no matter what your build.