Multiclass Prejudice?

[samthedagger]

I don't play on Thelanis, but I hardly ever turn down anyone with a significant investment in bard levels. Their songs and spells are usually too good to ignore (and rare enough to be a treasured commodity).

Some mutt builds make me o.O, like the brd3/clr9/sor8. Yep. Real build.

[Phidius]

Not every trap...two won't even do that. That's why you need feats and enhancements. You might be able to do all the easy traps. Otherwise you are asking for serious abuse.

It's not your number of rogue levels, but your total skill.

[GhoulsTouch]

It's not your number of rogue levels, but your total skill.

Exactly what enhancements and feats improve on.
You can get them, but you take risks in trying.

[Kyrn]

Exactly what enhancements and feats improve on.
You can get them, but you take risks in trying.

Ok, let me put this another way. Let us compare a pure melee rogue (18/X) vs a conventional 18/2 wiz/rogue.

A wizrogue would have 10+ more int than a basic melee rogue in general. (18-20 int vs 12-14 int at start, +5 int from statup, +3 int from class bonuses)

A pure melee rogue would need to spend 11 more AP (a wiz/rogue can spend 1 ap to get DD I), and STILL not meet the pure disable divice bonuses from the wizards int. Feats you say? Wizards get more bonus feats than rogues at lv 18. If the Rogue went for 19 rogue levels, that just makes it even. (Edited due to forgetting the bonus feat at level 1 for wizards)

Now, are you expecting a rogue to start with more than 14 int, considering that the only purpose it would serve is DD and search alone? (14 int is 10 skillpoints per level for a rogue, which is more than plenty.) Or spend more than 1 feat onto DD, on an already feat-starved class (since the bonus feats don't apply for melee directly)

[PopeJual]

Exactly what enhancements and feats improve on.
You can get them, but you take risks in trying.

You could make up for not having those enhancements and feats by having an insanely high Int.

...like a Rogue2/Wizard 18.

If a Rogue takes 4 ranks of Disable Device enhancements and 4 ranks of Search enhancements (for a total of 20 Action Points) and takes the +3 Skill Focus Search feat and the +3 Skill Focus Disable Device feat, he'll get +7 skill points on each of those skills.

If the Rogue started with a 16 Int and wears a +6 Int item and eats a +2 Int tome, then he'll also get a +7 to his Search and Disable Device skills from his Int. He'll also be pretty gimpy at DPS considering how much he's invested in in traps to the expense of other skills, abilities and stats. That's a total of +14 from ability mods, enhancements and feats.

Let's compare this to a Rogue2/Wizard 18. The Rogue/Wizard can still spend two Action Points for +1 to each of these skills and starts with 18 Int with 5 level ups, a +2 Int tome, +2 Int from Enhancements, +3 exceptional Int from items and +6 Int from an item. That's a 36 Int for a +13 from Int and +14 total from ability mods, enhancements and feats. Take away the exceptional Int item and the Wizard still gets +13 total to the Search and Disable Device skills as long as he sinks another 6 AP into the third level of Int enhancements.

Rogues get Improved Evasion. Other than Improved Evasion, I'd say that Rogue splashed Wizards are equal to pure trap monkey Rogues at finding and disabling traps and they are better at it than Rogues who actually contribue to their party.

[GhoulsTouch]

Ok, let me put this another way. Let us compare a pure melee rogue (18/X) vs a conventional 18/2 wiz/rogue.

A wizrogue would have 10+ more int than a basic melee rogue in general. (18-20 int vs 12-14 int at start, +5 int from statup, +3 int from class bonuses)

A pure melee rogue would need to spend 11 more AP (a wiz/rogue can spend 1 ap to get DD I), and STILL not meet the pure disable divice bonuses from the wizards int. Feats you say? Wizards get more bonus feats than rogues at lv 18. If the Rogue went for 19 rogue levels, that just makes it even. (Edited due to forgetting the bonus feat at level 1 for wizards)

Now, are you expecting a rogue to start with more than 14 int, considering that the only purpose it would serve is DD and search alone? (14 int is 10 skillpoints per level for a rogue, which is more than plenty.) Or spend more than 1 feat onto DD, on an already feat-starved class (since the bonus feats don't apply for melee directly)

Having 16 intelligence is only plus one more, 14 is only 1 less. So switching intelligence high from strength isn't making a Rogue only good for traps. In fact it's better to start high in intel and up your dex,con, and/or str in later progression.

Plus a rogue has higher reflex saves per level apart from his improved trap sense and any other enhancements/class granted feats not counting his stat bonuses then a wizard. I am still sticking to my guns on this. You might be able to disarm the trap but getting to the box or making a save when you fail will most likely kill your wizard outright more often then a more pronounced rogue build trying to do the same thing unless there are ways to avoid the trap itself. If it blows however you are SOL, most wizz's cant take that much damage in one shot.

It's easy to get hit for 144-160 even with improved evasion where you take half no matter what when you fail a reflex save. You'd take none if you made the save of course. So ask yourself can you take 160-320 damage at level 13 and live? If you can I salute you.

Just because you can swing a sword doesn't make you a good tank, and just because you can disarm a trap doesn't make you a good rogue.

I am not saying it's a bad build because it is probably alot of fun. I am saying get real,and be honest. If you are unaware of your weaknesses ZERG WEST YOUNG MAN. Join the rest of them "invincibles" we always hate to PUG with.
If you play it smart, yeah I'll guarantee you can have some fun. Just know your limitations.

[AfroDesiac]

This reminds me of the other day when i started a wiz/rog, i was soloing most of the quests in korthos but decided it might be fun to group with some people just for company. I saw a group looking for a rogue, so i thought ok they need a trapmonkey, i can do that, and sent a join request - Rejected almost immediately. Confused i looked at their listing again and saw that they didnt need a rogue but rather a ROUGE. So i sent the group leader a tell apologizing for offering them my services as i was not a rouge but a rogue. She responded that she "needed a pure rouge" and that people who multiclass shouldnt be allowed to play the game, and multiclass "rouges" give all "rouges" a bad name.

I think i dodged a bullet there.

[Thorzian]

heh, I'll deny your guild waayyyy before your build in thelanis.

there are mutts and then there are mutts played by people who are stupid. myself, i'm a cookie cutter guy. very rarely multiclass. I like many of the capstones, believe they add to the power of a toon, and expect other ones to show up. But I won't deny you on the build alone (unless of course i'm looking for the last spot to fill with a specific role)

[Kyrn]

Having 16 intelligence is only plus one more, 14 is only 1 less. So switching intelligence high from strength isn't making a Rogue only good for traps. In fact it's better to start high in intel and up your dex,con, and/or str in later progression.

Plus a rogue has higher reflex saves per level apart from his improved trap sense and any other enhancements/class granted feats not counting his stat bonuses then a wizard. I am still sticking to my guns on this. You might be able to disarm the trap but getting to the box or making a save when you fail will most likely kill your wizard outright more often then a more pronounced rogue build trying to do the same thing unless there are ways to avoid the trap itself. If it blows however you are SOL, most wizz's cant take that much damage in one shot.

It's easy to get hit for 144-160 even with improved evasion where you take half no matter what when you fail a reflex save. You'd take none if you made the save of course. So ask yourself can you take 160-320 damage at level 13 and live? If you can I salute you.

Just because you can swing a sword doesn't make you a good tank, and just because you can disarm a trap doesn't make you a good rogue.

I am not saying it's a bad build because it is probably alot of fun. I am saying get real,and be honest. If you are unaware of your weaknesses ZERG WEST YOUNG MAN. Join the rest of them "invincibles" we always hate to PUG with.
If you play it smart, yeah I'll guarantee you can have some fun. Just know your limitations.

1) Any melee-specced rogue is not going to put int during levelups. So that point is moot. Based on base int, int enhancements, and stat from levelups, a wiz/rogue is going to have more disable device than a melee-specced rogue. I do not take into consideration items or tomes, because both classes can be expected to source for them.
2) Only your improved trap sense contributes to reflex more than a wizard. Any wiz/rogue worth their salt would take insightful reflexes, which would lend them their base stat to contribute to reflex, as compared to a melee rogue, which has to split between str and dex.
2) Your only argument is that rogues have better saves and improved evasion than a wizard. But you must admit that saves alone doesn't make a good rogue either. A wiz/rogue is more likely to succeed in disabling traps. How can you then say that a rogue is definately better than a wiz/rogue at disabling traps then?

[Delt]

Not every trap...two won't even do that. That's why you need feats and enhancements. You might be able to do all the easy traps. Otherwise you are asking for serious abuse.

Having 16 intelligence is only plus one more, 14 is only 1 less. So switching intelligence high from strength isn't making a Rogue only good for traps. In fact it's better to start high in intel and up your dex,con, and/or str in later progression.

It's easy to get hit for 144-160 even with improved evasion where you take half no matter what when you fail a reflex save. You'd take none if you made the save of course. So ask yourself can you take 160-320 damage at level 13 and live? If you can I salute you.

The things you say are silly. You should say less.

[GhoulsTouch]

The things you say are silly. You should say less.

Okay put it like this at 20 int compared to 16 you have a plus 2 advantage to Disable Device on a rogue at the start. You could just jack up intel sure, but it's every two stat points that give you a bonus that you'd neglect on say constitution. Rogues automatically get sneak attack bonuses that they can add enhancements to so they don't need to spend much on feats for combat as they automatically get bonuses to hit and damage. Those attacks being so powerful gives them plenty of room to use skill focus feats much like a wizard would do to buff his spells.

Like the Wizard swinging his longsword running way ahead of everyone to take on things that will squish him. You think you have nuts, but you got a screw loose. Sure you can take a whack now and then, but if you know something can possibly kill you it's better to let those better at it to step up.

If you can't admit that, I don't know what to tell you. Alot of wiz rogues will say the same thing. They only step in when there isn't a rogue in a party because they have to.

[Delt]

Okay put it like this at 20 int compared to 16 you have a plus 2 advantage to Disable Device on a rogue at the start. You could just jack up intel sure, but it's every two stat points that give you a bonus that you'd neglect on say constitution. Rogues automatically get sneak attack bonuses that they can add enhancements to so they don't need to spend much on feats for combat as they automatically get bonuses to hit and damage. Those attacks being so powerful gives them plenty of room to use skill focus feats much like a wizard would do to buff his spells.

Like the Wizard swinging his longsword running way ahead of everyone to take on things that will squish him. You think you have nuts, but you got a screw loose. Sure you can take a whack now and then, but if you know something can possibly kill you it's better to let those better at it to step up.

If you can't admit that, I don't know what to tell you.

As usual, I have no idea what you are babbling about. As an aside, if anyone has a few free minutes, check out this guys posting history. Literally every post he makes is just as silly --- as schtick, it would be brilliant. But it's not...which actually makes it even more entertaining.

GhoulsTouch, you are my new favorite poster.

[PopeJual]

Okay put it like this at 20 int compared to 16 you have a plus 2 advantage to Disable Device on a rogue at the start. You could just jack up intel sure, but it's every two stat points that give you a bonus that you'd neglect on say constitution. Rogues automatically get sneak attack bonuses that they can add enhancements to so they don't need to spend much on feats for combat as they automatically get bonuses to hit and damage. Those attacks being so powerful gives them plenty of room to use skill focus feats much like a wizard would do to buff his spells.

Like the Wizard swinging his longsword running way ahead of everyone to take on things that will squish him. You think you have nuts, but you got a screw loose. Sure you can take a whack now and then, but if you know something can possibly kill you it's better to let those better at it to step up.

If you can't admit that, I don't know what to tell you. Alot of wiz rogues will say the same thing. They only step in when there isn't a rogue in a party because they have to.

I'll go ahead and just repost what I posted earlier (that you apparently didn't read)

You could make up for not having those enhancements and feats by having an insanely high Int.

...like a Rogue2/Wizard 18.

If a Rogue takes 4 ranks of Disable Device enhancements and 4 ranks of Search enhancements (for a total of 20 Action Points) and takes the +3 Skill Focus Search feat and the +3 Skill Focus Disable Device feat, he'll get +7 skill points on each of those skills.

If the Rogue started with a 16 Int and wears a +6 Int item and eats a +2 Int tome, then he'll also get a +7 to his Search and Disable Device skills from his Int. He'll also be pretty gimpy at DPS considering how much he's invested in in traps to the expense of other skills, abilities and stats. That's a total of +14 from ability mods, enhancements and feats.

Let's compare this to a Rogue2/Wizard 18. The Rogue/Wizard can still spend two Action Points for +1 to each of these skills and starts with 18 Int with 5 level ups, a +2 Int tome, +2 Int from Enhancements, +3 exceptional Int from items and +6 Int from an item. That's a 36 Int for a +13 from Int and +14 total from ability mods, enhancements and feats. Take away the exceptional Int item and the Wizard still gets +13 total to the Search and Disable Device skills as long as he sinks another 6 AP into the third level of Int enhancements.

Rogues get Improved Evasion. Other than Improved Evasion, I'd say that Rogue splashed Wizards are equal to pure trap monkey Rogues at finding and disabling traps and they are better at it than Rogues who actually contribue to their party.

To summarize: a Rogue who wants to do traps as well as possible can spend 1/4 of their total action points and 1/3 of their total feats to get the same effect that a Wizard gets from spending 2 actoin points and no feats. The Wizard just being a Wizard will maximize their own Int just for the extra spell points and DCs on spells.

I'm not saying that Rogues are a bad class. I think Rogues are a GREAT class. They're just a great DPS class with low HP and not exceptionally good against enemies that are immune to critical hits. The ability to bust apart traps is purely secondary. My Rogue2/Wizard 18 (just capped yesterday!) is a good caster with a purely secondary ability to bust apart traps.

As a Wiz/Rogue, I step aside and let the Rogues deal with traps because I don't want to make them feel bad. Once they fail a disarm, I speak up in party chat and I take over the trap duties. I don't mind that at all because a well built Rogue will have great DPS - something that I don't have as a Wizard.

[Syntax42]

You seem to be as prejudiced towards single class bards as you are complaining about the prejudice towards your multi class build. You seem to think that your build is better than any pure bard. There are numerous situations where a pure bard can do the job that is required of them better than you.

You are correct in assuming I am against the idea of a pure Bard. I think I know the limitations of the class, and that makes me wary of grouping with them.

Understanding the role someone will fill based on their build is very important. Taking the pure Bard as an example, they are most likely filling a backup healer, buffer, or crowd control role. The lack of feats prevents them from filling a melee DPS role. Sure, they can do damage, but nowhere near what a Rogue or multiclassed Bard can do.

Since the Bard is filling some sort of casting role, they are also going to need metamagic feats if they want their Bard to be considered as effective as other classes that can do the same roles: healing, buffing, or CC. So now you have a character with less than half the base spell points of a Cleric that main heals or buffs, and even fewer spell points than a Sorcerer or Wizard with crowd control spells. The endurance to last just isn't there, meaning they aren't going to perform their role when they run out of SP, unless they want to chug expensive potions in every dungeon that lacks frequent shrines.

That's why I think a pure Bard build is a silly idea. You bring a gimped healer, buffer, or CC to a dungeon by being a pure Bard. By multiclassing, I only use my SP to buff, but more importantly, I'm making the fights shorter and saving healers and casters even more SP.

I like many of the capstones, believe they add to the power of a toon, and expect other ones to show up. But I won't deny you on the build alone (unless of course i'm looking for the last spot to fill with a specific role)

From DDO Wiki:
Bard Musical Prodigy: You gain +2 Charisma, two additional uses of Bardic Music, as well as +2 to Spell Penetration checks and the DC's of your Enchantment spells. Your beneficial songs last 20% longer.

The extra Charisma gives a few SP. Additional uses of Bardic Music are not very useful unless the player is spamming Fascinate every fight. The 20% added duration to songs is nice, but my multiclass build will have more than enough total song duration to last more than an hour and a half without shrining.

For the Bard, I just don't see the capstone adding more to the class or assisting a role more than multiclassing does. Other classes probably have decent capstones.

As for the last spot, it just depends on what you're looking for. I wouldn't expect to fill a primary healing role even as a pure Bard. A multiclassed Cleric trying to fill a healer role will be expected to have at least 18 ranks in Cleric if they want to be considered for that spot.

[taurean430]

Okay put it like this at 20 int compared to 16 you have a plus 2 advantage to Disable Device on a rogue at the start. You could just jack up intel sure, but it's every two stat points that give you a bonus that you'd neglect on say constitution. Rogues automatically get sneak attack bonuses that they can add enhancements to so they don't need to spend much on feats for combat as they automatically get bonuses to hit and damage. Those attacks being so powerful gives them plenty of room to use skill focus feats much like a wizard would do to buff his spells.

Like the Wizard swinging his longsword running way ahead of everyone to take on things that will squish him. You think you have nuts, but you got a screw loose. Sure you can take a whack now and then, but if you know something can possibly kill you it's better to let those better at it to step up.

If you can't admit that, I don't know what to tell you. Alot of wiz rogues will say the same thing. They only step in when there isn't a rogue in a party because they have to.

My wizard, which is a rogue splash has more hp than any rogue he's partied with to date.

He also handles traps just fine. Much better than I anticipated originally. Two in game examples for you:

1. VON 5 elite: Rogue dies 4 times trying to get the traps in the north corridor. I said nothing and continue to buff him following deaths. When the group leader made the suggestion to reform, I said hang on a minute and disabled them myself. Without dying once.

2. Crucible elite: Rogue dies on the swim. I go in and get her stone and grab the horn so we can move on.

I choose to explain away my 2 rogue levels as a way to gain evasion. I allow any rogues in the party the opportunity to shine at disarming traps, if that's what they claim to do. I only intervene when things get ridiculous. There are not many traps in the game in regular content that can't be handled by this kind of build. However, I haven't seen any pure class trapsmith rogues throwing area of effect spells, crowd controling, etc...

If you prefer pure class rogues, that's one thing. But to continue this arguing in this fashion that they are better in approximately 95% of game content is quite silly.

[begbie]

lol..

I was just in a VoN series.. all of us around lvl8-10 and a cleric applies..

Level 7.. 1 lvl cleric, 3 fighter and 3 barb... with a name that sounded like "lets hit 12 buttons to be original" lol...

...needless to say, the leader asks us if we wanted him.. **noted: leader was sarcastic**.. we all chuckled and declined...

very funny stuff...

Next person to apply was a very good multi-class wizzie (had fightersplash or something) and we zerged through the VoNs with no complications...

The moral of the story.. if yer build sounds like junk.. it most likely is

[Bobthesponge]

Sounds like you have some multiclass predjudice too my friend. What's wrong with rogue/cleric? or a fighter/wizard? there are very effective builds that use both those templates. Would you deny those builds just because you can't conceive of their usefulness? Are you sure you aren't the pot calling the kettle black here?

****. you beat me to it. +1 rep anyways...

[Syntax42]

****. you beat me to it. +1 rep anyways...

According to the dictionary, prejudice is: an unfavorable opinion or feeling formed beforehand or without knowledge, thought, or reason.

I have knowledge, thought, and reason behind not wanting certain class combinations in my groups. For example, this build:

Level 7.. 1 lvl cleric, 3 fighter and 3 barb...

It makes no sense to take a single level of Cleric in any build. Mixing Fighter and Barb isn't wrong, but it doesn't produce the best results if it isn't done right.

I was angry that I got denied a group just because I was a multi-class build. That person did have a prejudice against all multi-classes and didn't have a reason for disliking multi-class builds, other than his lack of knowledge of the game and the classes in it.

I don't have a problem with being denied a group if someone doesn't understand my build, as long as they are polite about it and tell me that's the reason. I will probably ask about builds I don't understand, but seem like they might work. Any builds that appear to have no reasonable logic behind making them, like the Cleric above, will be denied outright. That is not prejudice.

[diamabel]

I read through the whole thread. At first it looked like a thread about the impression that multiclass builds get rejected more often from joining parties than pure classes. Then it changed into debating an optimized build.

Do you really need an optimized build for aproximately 95% of the game's content (by number of quests)? Even a truly gimped build can be useful when blocking a door at the right time so a wizard can scorch things. ,)
The quests are static anyway. Same monsters. Same old traps. If you're prepared (have potions/wands, know when you need appropriate resists, a set of different weapons - melee, as well as ranged weapons and a full quiver) then there should be no problems, even with a gimped toon. There exist more tactics than just charge into an ambush and trying to melee everything in sight (hence maybe the wish for powerfuul melee builds?). ,)

Even an all star team will loose a match if they don't play together. Just something to think about.


@OP
From your opening post it seems that you and the other party leader are like-minded. Going for a party of optimized toons. How should he judge your build? By reading your mind?

[GhoulsTouch]

According to the dictionary, prejudice is: an unfavorable opinion or feeling formed beforehand or without knowledge, thought, or reason.

I have knowledge, thought, and reason behind not wanting certain class combinations in my groups. For example, this build:



It makes no sense to take a single level of Cleric in any build. Mixing Fighter and Barb isn't wrong, but it doesn't produce the best results if it isn't done right.

I was angry that I got denied a group just because I was a multi-class build. That person did have a prejudice against all multi-classes and didn't have a reason for disliking multi-class builds, other than his lack of knowledge of the game and the classes in it.

I don't have a problem with being denied a group if someone doesn't understand my build, as long as they are polite about it and tell me that's the reason. I will probably ask about builds I don't understand, but seem like they might work. Any builds that appear to have no reasonable logic behind making them, like the Cleric above, will be denied outright. That is not prejudice.

One level of cleric allows you to use any Divine wand (not scrolls however) 100% without having to spend anything on UMD, gives better will saves and a few points to self heal on downtimes and incap heal without having to disrupt combat in order to whip out your wand or scroll which is worth more then many feats you can choose from when taking a fighter class not to mention taking wand and scroll mastery to boost existing UMD or class granted device useage. Do you see a "use all clerical wands with 0 chance fail" feat anywhere? Of course you could shake that CSW/ or Resist Energy 9th wand you found until it either works or runs dry if you want.

Why do you think you see alot of WF melee types with odd levels of arcane? Just for that reason of course, self sufficiency...esp. since alot of newb healers avoid healing WF like the plague.

So yeah, you didn't give that much thought.