Multiclass Prejudice?

[Phidius]

Someone posted before me said something about a 10 cleric/10 rogue not being able to do traps and being worthless. I have said in my few posts this is NO THE BEST OR EVEN A GOOD BUILD. I am just defending that a well build/well played 10 cleric/10 rogue can fill a rogues spot and help with some heals dps and buffs. Again I AM NOT SAYING THIS IS A GOOD BUILD OR EVEN A BUILD I WOULD PLAY, I WAS USING IT AS A EXAMPLE.

And personal trap monkey quest?!?



Really it comes down to the person behind the Char not really the char itself.
That is all.

Personally? A 10 cleric/10 rogue would only be helpful against traps. Like every other build with 2 points into rogue (unless they went UMD instead). What does this class bring other than traps, which almost any other build with 2-splashed rogue classes can do better?

2 rogue 18 paladin: Better DPS, better heals.
2 rogue 2 fighter 16 bard: Better DPS, better heals, better buffs.
2 rogue 18 FvS/Cleric: Better DPS, better heals, better buffs.
1 rogue 1 X 18 Ranger: Better DPS.

Let me just put this another way: By not going 11 cleric, he doesn't even have Heal or Blade Barrier. What exactly is so special about rogue 10 that he had to skip that?

Here, let me answer for him... and I even highlighted the main point in red.

... I have said in my few posts this is NO THE BEST OR EVEN A GOOD BUILD. I am just defending that a well build/well played 10 cleric/10 rogue can fill a rogues spot and help with some heals dps and buffs...

[Kyrn]

Here, let me answer for him... and I even highlighted the main point in red.

And I'm saying that there is not such thing as a well-built 10 rogue/10 cleric, nor would it be useful in adding to the DPS or healing department.

[Mecholi22]

I'm level 10. My build is based on Axesinger. Someone denied me a group and at least had the decency to tell me it was because I'm playing a "mutt" build, according to him. Is this kind of prejudice common on this server? Is there a lot of prejudice against multiclassing at 20? Was the leader just a moron who doesn't know classes very well, or some hardcore min/maxer who thinks his way is the only right way?

In my opinion, my build is much more effective than a pure bard. I have my Warchanter enhancement, so my song buff is quite good. I can do decent DPS in a fight, unlike pure bards who I usually see just standing back and either doing nothing to contribute or casting small heals and running out of SP long before we get to a shrine. My build can also do traps and locks almost as well as a rogue. I can understand not wanting someone who multiclasses something like Cleric with Rogue or Wizard with Fighter, but Bards almost have to multiclass to do anything more than standing back during a fight.

Looking at your join date I would think you would know bards better than that... pure bards rock.. you just saw some bad players behind the controls of the bard.

[Mecholi22]

My new fav thing to do is run quests without a healer.....really boogles there mind.

Specially when I do it on my WF Fighter/Barb that way they have no excuse of why I finished the quest without dieing and having full hp and they died 3 times.

I love seeing the panic on new players faces when I run quest without a healer.. it makes rolling new toons interesting and less sleep inducing

[Yajerman01]

10/10 rogue cleric is doable and can handle itself well in the hands of a good player. But a saftey button at least I would have opted 9/11 rogue/cleric. That at least tells me you thought of aquiring level 6 spells, i.e. heal, banishment, blade barrier and wand usage enahncement iv.

Then at least with the right gear you could be a decent backup healer or secondary healer (Or primary if your truly gifted), and if you go that route just convert your rogue into a heavy repeating crossbow user so you stay out of the fray, and perhaps go dex build to mask up your ac a bit minimizing self healing and focus on the party more. Still get sneak attack damage at 30 feet with a x-bow (and there are some nice damagers out there).

i dont know, just a thought.

Edit - and go Elf and pick up range enhancments and/or arcane stuff

[Syntax42]

Looking at your join date I would think you would know bards better than that... pure bards rock.. you just saw some bad players behind the controls of the bard.

You're probably right. I haven't been playing very long, though. My highest level is my 10 bard. You are also reinforcing my point of view on this.

To reiterate, people need to not assume a character is bad just because it is multiclassed. They need to carefully evaluate what that character can do, based on the class choices. If the character brings more than one role to a party, make sure it can do them well. The Cleric/Rogue example is a character that CAN NOT heal and fight at the same time. You have to stop DPSing to heal. No matter what, it is only performing one of those roles at a time. My Bard build, on the other hand, can buff before fights and fight well during fights, bringing the entire party's DPS up without taking something else away.

The Tempest Spine "pure builds only" party that I did not get into took two hours to complete. I joined another group 30 minutes later and finished long before I saw the leader out of the raid instance in the character search panel. He didn't allow anyone in his party to be even a single level out of their main class.

People should be just as wary of players who are NOT multiclassed as those who are. From what I have seen, new players click on a path at the beginning and many of them end up being bad players. The paths keep them from messing up a build, but the player behind the keyboard makes it a bad character. When forming parties, look out for bad players, not just multiclassed builds.

[Phidius]

hehe, I really wouldn't when it comes from my guild in particular. Very slow at forming upon occasion and we might leave that screen up until we figure out who all is coming.

As for the other two people who declined you it hardly sounds like the picture of large scale prejudice against multi-classes. You run tons of quests 2/1000's maybe 10,000's isn't so bad after all

+1 for making me think - no easy task.

I do so much multiclassing that I think of an 18/2 as a "pure" build - keep in mind that 2 of my favorite builds involve 6 levels of ranger and 2-3 in monk on a casting class.

Last night I tried something I rarely do - request a spot in a non-raid pug. Once on my tempest cleric, and the other on my tempest wizard.

Both accepted within 20 seconds, each run went smooth with everyone taking care of themselves and no "know your role" nonsense.

I think I'm just getting crotchety and bitter in my old age

[Krag]

Someone posted before me said something about a 10 cleric/10 rogue not being able to do traps and being worthless. I have said in my few posts this is NO THE BEST OR EVEN A GOOD BUILD. I am just defending that a well build/well played 10 cleric/10 rogue can fill a rogues spot and help with some heals dps and buffs. Again I AM NOT SAYING THIS IS A GOOD BUILD OR EVEN A BUILD I WOULD PLAY, I WAS USING IT AS A EXAMPLE.

This made me chuckle.
Well build 10cleric/10rogue, seriously?

Really it comes down to the person behind the Char not really the char itself.

Put Schoemacher(spelling?) in a wheelchair and he will fail to cross 20km/h barrier.
Good player can make decent build shine, but even best players won't contribute much behind a crippled char.

[Phidius]

This made me chuckle.
Well build 10cleric/10rogue, seriously?
...

Sure - a well built 10 cleric/10 rogue will still be a gimped build, but it's better than a poorly built 10 cleric/10 rogue.

For example, which is the better-built 10/10?

Str:18
Dex:15
Con:14
Int:8
Wis:10
Cha:8

or

Str:8
Dex:8
Con:10
Int:16
Wis:18
Cha:12

I wouldn't level either one, but which of these in the right hands will contribute more to the party than "nothing".

[Phidius]

Dang double-posting...

[Yajerman01]

Sure - a well built 10 cleric/10 rogue will still be a gimped build, but it's better than a poorly built 10 cleric/10 rogue.

For example, which is the better-built 10/10?

Str:18
Dex:15
Con:14
Int:8
Wis:10
Cha:8

or

Str:8
Dex:8
Con:10
Int:16
Wis:18
Cha:12

I wouldn't play either one, but one of these in the right hands will contribute more to the party than "nothing".

hahaha sorry thats a trick question, they both suck. even if we have to pressume which one will contribute more to a party, suffice to say I see equality here. But i guesss. (eyes roll) the strength Con build could at least hit something and survive.

hahaha, still <cringes> at the sight of both those options. I would have to DDO the guy first to get an idea of his stats at this point

[Kyrn]

Answer: neither, since the contribution to dungeon scaling offsets their potential benefits.

[Leucius]

I have to admit to being a bit prejudice when it comes to multi-class, although am also willing to admit that this comes out of my ignorance of skills across the builds.

When I'm looking for members for a party, I tend to be looking for particular skills or types: trap monkeys, tanks, casters (and within that, damage-dealing or crowd-controllers depending on the quest), etc. I inherently tend to assume that a rogue/ranger/cleric mix won't be as good at traps as a 'pure' rogue. In reality, I've got no idea how good that build (and, more specifically, that player) is with its search and disable device; my player mindset is just programmed to think 'more rogue levels = better at traps. Maybe that is a kind of prejudice.

I guess I also tend to assume that multi-class players are more specced out for solo play, whereas a good mix of 'pure' types gives you the best group profile.

Let my education begin...?

[Shaftronics]

Depending on their multi-classing, I'd usually love to hear as to why they have their classes split that way. Sometimes, with good players, the weird builds shine out.

I know a player who is currently 7 Wiz/2 Rog/4 fighter. Sure, its a weird mix but with the way the guy behind the keyboard plays it, knowing his strengths, weaknesses and buffing up the nearby melees with haste while helping with the DPS with TWF is pretty alright. He can handle traps as good as a rogue of his level would as well, with decent evasion and the occasional firewall if we run into a pinch.

And then there's the not-so-well-played old-school batman. Paladin/Rogue builds.

Aiyayai.

[Syntax42]

I have to admit to being a bit prejudice when it comes to multi-class, although am also willing to admit that this comes out of my ignorance of skills across the builds.

When I'm looking for members for a party, I tend to be looking for particular skills or types: trap monkeys, tanks, casters (and within that, damage-dealing or crowd-controllers depending on the quest), etc. I inherently tend to assume that a rogue/ranger/cleric mix won't be as good at traps as a 'pure' rogue. In reality, I've got no idea how good that build (and, more specifically, that player) is with its search and disable device; my player mindset is just programmed to think 'more rogue levels = better at traps. Maybe that is a kind of prejudice.

I guess I also tend to assume that multi-class players are more specced out for solo play, whereas a good mix of 'pure' types gives you the best group profile.

Let my education begin...?

It only takes a level of Rogue to be able to disable traps. The rest is up to the player in obtaining +5 tools (adds +7 disable skill) and the best disable device bonus item they can find. Those two alone separate a bad Rogue from a multiclassed character, from what I have seen while leveling. For example, at level 10, my base trap skill is only 13. I get 4 more from Int, putting it at 17. Add +10 from the best disable item (level 9 item) and another +7 and you have 34 disable skill now. I can get 3 more points from skill buffs, another from a luck item, and 2 more from Fox's Cunning buff. Without using a Rogue Action Boost, I have 40 disable skill. If the trap has a DC of 20, the Rogue with bad tools and no disable skill item has a chance of failure, while I can disarm it even if I roll a 1.

Again, taking my Bard build as an example, some multiclassed builds are made for group play instead of solo play. I don't have good healing, HPs, or AC. My build is based around contributing as much as I can to a team in every situation. Pre-combat, I can buff everyone to do more damage. During combat, I'm contributing a significant amount of damage. Post-combat, I can wand people if the main healer needs to conserve SP. Between fights, I can disarm traps if we don't have a Rogue. A pure Bard build would give out slightly better buffs, assuming they are Warchanters. They wouldn't do nearly as much damage due to missing feats. They may contribute more to healing, but they would never be able to disarm traps without taking a level a Rogue.

It takes a lot of experience and game knowledge to know what someone can or can't do with a build. A lot of it depends on gear available to a player, but most of it depends on the person behind the keyboard.

[superdestructo]

Have you tried just sending a tell? I multi-class most of my guys.There's been a few times I know I can fill the role that is wanted but am still not accepted. If I want in the group, I just send a tell that I can do it and they let me in.


And how many really bad multi-classed characters have you seen? I can't even remember...


Personally, I almost always mutli-class my characters because most of the time I play with a few friends or run missions solo. I like to have a level or two of rogue on most of my builds, and i will make sure I can do the rogue's job for that mission before i sign on to do it. And plenty of times i've seen full rogues blow boxes up that i'm sure i could of disarmed on a 1 with the right gear on...

From my experience, the truly horrible players are almost always pure class melee characters. It's very common to see a pure class "tank" who takes constant damage and uses up all the healer's mana, or takes all the healer's attention so some other guy takes 2 critical hits in close succession and then dies without a heal. And it's not just barbarians who run through traps slashing at everything that lights up, i've seen plenty of horrible zergdie monks too.

And despite many of you guys talking about pubs like some lethal disease, almost every pub i've run with has been successful. Rarely perfect, but i've seen very few wipes. Maybe it has something to do with my mission selection, but 90%-95% of the time the party makes it through without a re-entry. And a lot of those are one newbie dying and re-entering or going to repair and then re-entering. LOL.

Oh well!

[GhoulsTouch]

It only takes a level of Rogue to be able to disable traps.

Not every trap...two won't even do that. That's why you need feats and enhancements. You might be able to do all the easy traps. Otherwise you are asking for serious abuse.

[Krag]

From my experience, the truly horrible players are almost always pure class melee characters. It's very common to see a pure class "tank" who takes constant damage and uses up all the healer's mana, or takes all the healer's attention so some other guy takes 2 critical hits in close succession and then dies without a heal. And it's not just barbarians who run through traps slashing at everything that lights up, i've seen plenty of horrible zergdie monks too.

Sad but true.
Pure classes can be just as poor built as weirdest multiclasses.
Ranged rangers, trapsmith rogues, S&B paladins, 6 Con sorcerers, you-can't-heal-me warforged barbarians, no-fortification "tanks", etc. etc. etc.

[Kyrn]

Not every trap...two won't even do that. That's why you need feats and enhancements. You might be able to do all the easy traps. Otherwise you are asking for serious abuse.

The only traps which you need feats and enhancements to be able to disable, are the traps which most rogues wouldn't be able to disable to begin with.

Frankly, most rogues don't spend that many feats or enhancements on disable, because those feats/enhancements don't help with the core gameplay of beating stuff up. Likewise, people often call trapsmith rogues gimped compared to melee rogues.

Also for reference? Those traps only appear on epic. And I think that is also before they adjusted the trap DCs, so that may not even be the case now.

[LugnutEU]

Again, taking my Bard build as an example, some multiclassed builds are made for group play instead of solo play. I don't have good healing, HPs, or AC. My build is based around contributing as much as I can to a team in every situation. Pre-combat, I can buff everyone to do more damage. During combat, I'm contributing a significant amount of damage. Post-combat, I can wand people if the main healer needs to conserve SP. Between fights, I can disarm traps if we don't have a Rogue. A pure Bard build would give out slightly better buffs, assuming they are Warchanters. They wouldn't do nearly as much damage due to missing feats. They may contribute more to healing, but they would never be able to disarm traps without taking a level a Rogue..

You seem to be as prejudiced towards single class bards as you are complaining about the prejudice towards your multi class build. You seem to think that your build is better than any pure bard. There are numerous situations where a pure bard can do the job that is required of them better than you.