Multiclass Prejudice?

[Jakarr]

I do agree that a 10 Rogue/10 Cleric could do some decent DPS and a little healing on the side. The problem is that a group is frequently looking for a healer and this character could never fill that role. The 17 cleric/2 Monk/1 Fighter build mentioned above could fill the role of a healer even though it is built for fighting as well. If I'm trying to fill the role of a Bard, those multiclassed levels are not taking anything significant away from my Bard role and they are adding a lot to what my character can do.

Whether we want to admit it or not, everyone is categorized into one of four roles: Healer, Tank, DPS, or Utility. Some builds can fill two or more roles well. Some builds sacrifice too much in one of their roles when multiclassing and can't contribute to a group. Some prejudice is ok and helps to avoid completely bad builds, but expecting pure class builds limits how well your party can perform as individuals contributing to a team.

Ahh but you are assuming that this 10Rogue/10Cleric is tryin to fill a Healers shoes, when very well he is most likely a "rogue" type as main but took cleric to help heal(not main heal) and for the buffs. Granted its not a great build but it will do just as good if not better then 75% of these rogues on the market.

[Eladiun]

Wrong this char can do traps just as good as a pure Rogue, Plus they can do a little healing on the side. And if played right/built right, can DPS melee wise very well.

Granted a rogue shouldn't just be a rogue for the traps(worthless rogues....)

But really you just presented us with a very good example of what the OP is talking about.

Edit: I just noticed you are the OP........yea.....

That's quite a stretch... Rogue/Cleric are two classes with 0 synergy except spot. It's a multiclass that would be not good enough at either role. It's a multiclass without a purpose. Yes. Multiclass discrimination is bad but some are just mistakes or silly. Especially 10/10 since there is no great reason to go past 8 Rogue.

[Cyr]

There's a lot of multi-class prejudice on Sarlona, so I deliberately play obscure builds to avoid grouping with these people.

I don't know if it's worse on Thelanis or not, as I've never played there, but let me just ask you this.

Do you really want to play with these people?

/rolls eyes

You mean the server that had pretty much every splash monk build within two weeks of their release? The server with intimidating sorcs and wizards? The server with a good number of 12 cleric/6 ranger/2 monk splashes? The server with tons of 18/2 combo's of a wide variety. It's amazing I can count on one hand the number of pure builds I have played on Sarlona since a few months after release and yet I have never been denied a group due to multi classing.

[Chai]

There is prejudice against every single build possible other than the 5 or 6 accepted min maxer builds that work well using the same cookie cutter formula in raids and epics. Multi class builds are no different, LOL.

[Jakarr]

That's quite a stretch... Rogue/Cleric are two classes with 0 synergy except spot. It's a multiclass that would be not good enough at either role. It's a multiclass without a purpose. Yes. Multiclass discrimination is bad but some are just mistakes or silly. Especially 10/10 since there is no great reason to go past 8 Rogue.

Guess ya dont get it. If you have 1 lvl of rogue or 20 lvls of rogue you can still be a good trap monkey enough to get 95% of the traps and locks in the game, a 10/10 Rogue/cleric would beable to do traps along with extra stuff. I am not sayin its a good build its a example.

Flip side to this what would ya rather have in your party a worthless lvl 20 "trap focused" rogue(which 75% of the rogues are) or this 10/10 Rogue/cleric who can still do the traps and add a little something extra. Now this is a example its not a good build but in the hands of a good player this build can fill these "rolls" ppl talk about.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

I think Thelanis is actually less prejudice than some of the other servers. But yes, there it does exist.

In your case it may be the desire to have one full Bard (Warchanter) in a group for raid DPS buffs. And not seeing that a Bard can do anything else but buff the real melees.

Prejudice of all sorts exists for many people forming raid groups.

But there are many people who will accept you. Just move on to the next LFM and try not to worry about it too much.

I'll add that probably my favorite guild to run raids and high lvl content with is the Storm Lords. They have usually accepted my mutt build with no questions asked, and have done elite raids with no Bard at all without hesitation. These guys tend to be very solid players who do not seem to worry about perfect party makeup very much. And despite being very good, are generally lots of fun to run with and do not give the feeling of being elitists.

But there are many other people and guilds on Thelanis that don't care so much about build either.

[Eladiun]

Guess ya dont get it. If you have 1 lvl of rogue or 20 lvls of rogue you can still be a good trap monkey enough to get 95% of the traps and locks in the game, a 10/10 Rogue/cleric would beable to do traps along with extra stuff. I am not sayin its a good build its a example.

Flip side to this what would ya rather have in your party a worthless lvl 20 "trap focused" rogue(which 75% of the rogues are) or this 10/10 Rogue/cleric who can still do the traps and add a little something extra. Now this is a example its not a good build but in the hands of a good player this build can fill these "rolls" ppl talk about.

No, I get it. Your trying to bring your personal trap monkey quest into any thread you can. I definitely get it...if your advocating a 10 Rogue/10 Cleric build have fun with that. I wouldn't take you...

[Phidius]

/rolls eyes

You mean the server that had pretty much every splash monk build within two weeks of their release? The server with intimidating sorcs and wizards? The server with a good number of 12 cleric/6 ranger/2 monk splashes? The server with tons of 18/2 combo's of a wide variety. It's amazing I can count on one hand the number of pure builds I have played on Sarlona since a few months after release and yet I have never been denied a group due to multi classing.

I know - weird isn't it? I've got an intimidating wizard, a tempest cleric, and a tempest wizard that I play 95% of the time (occasionally play my forum named player). I get denied all the time, and by members of respected and established guilds... except most don't actually hit the Decline button, but instead let the auto-fill-notification do their declining for them

[Emili]

My you may be right… and not just the multi-classed but the mutli-raced. Why just the other day was walkin’ bout house J when a gang of little ones done ganged up upon some sweet little ole half-forged. Called his father a pop dispenser machine they did.

[GhoulsTouch]

That's quite a stretch... Rogue/Cleric are two classes with 0 synergy except spot. It's a multiclass that would be not good enough at either role. It's a multiclass without a purpose. Yes. Multiclass discrimination is bad but some are just mistakes or silly. Especially 10/10 since there is no great reason to go past 8 Rogue.

I thought sneak attack and trap sense bonuses come every 3rd level? 9/12/ or a 15th level halt on rogue would be more logical maybe it's just sneak though.

In all honesty I see alot of multi-classed on Thelanis. I think the bigotry is against bard not MC.

Everytime I start to make one, I trash it at creation. It has some benefits, but the OP was right in that aspect, you need to MC a bard just to have some fun playing one. That doesn't excuse his bigotry for other MC builds however.
Most people put thought in their builds and know their strengths and weaknesses. Just because you have a couple levels of melee on a rogue for example doesn't mean you have to forget you are a flank not a tank. All in all if you know how to play your build to the best of it's abilities to the point where everyone forgets you aren't pure...all the better.

[Cyr]

I know - weird isn't it? I've got an intimidating wizard, a tempest cleric, and a tempest wizard that I play 95% of the time (occasionally play my forum named player). I get denied all the time, and by members of respected and established guilds... except most don't actually hit the Decline button, but instead let the auto-fill-notification do their declining for them

That's not a decline. That's a the group filled up already. And do you actually get declined all the time where the stated reason is that you are a multi-class build? Otherwise, it's all assumption on your part. I know I most certainly do not get a spot in every group I hit to join. I don't assume it's because someone is biased against my build. I assume it's because they wanted another class, had friends log in, or just plain hit someone else in the lfm window since we both hit to join around the same time.

I've grouped with you before, I certainly don't remember any issues. That said I've probably been in a group that has declined you before, due to one of the above things I assume when I have been declined.

[Syntax42]

I think the bigotry is against bard not MC.

Really? What's wrong with having one Bard in the party? I can understand not wanting a second Bard, seeing as how pure Bards usually only buff people then watch the fight.

[Eladiun]

I thought sneak attack and trap sense bonuses come every 3rd level? 9/12/ or a 15th level halt on rogue would be more logical.

In all honesty I see alot of multi-classed on Thelanis. I think the bigotry is against bard not MC.

Yes, you would get a trap sense and sneak attack at 9. Improved Uncanny at 8. I would take the extra cleric level but I guess it's a matter of choice between 8 and 9 but you get zilch for 10 which was more my point a 10/10 rogue/cleric shows me poor planning which likely means poor play.

I would take 1 extra 4, 5, 6th level spell plus the SP for the extra Cleric level.

[Montrose]

Wrong this char can do traps just as good as a pure Rogue, Plus they can do a little healing on the side. And if played right/built right, can DPS melee wise very well.

Granted a rogue shouldn't just be a rogue for the traps(worthless rogues....)

But really you just presented us with a very good example of what the OP is talking about.



Edit: I just noticed you are the OP........yea.....

It really depends on how many levels we're talking. A 10/10 cleric/rogue is not as useful as a 18/2 clogue.

And pretty much a 10/10 anything is sub-optimal.

[Phidius]

That's not a decline. That's a the group filled up already...

When the party-full message comes 15-20 minutes after I requested a join, I consider it a passive decline.

... And do you actually get declined all the time where the stated reason is that you are a multi-class build? Otherwise, it's all assumption on your part. I know I most certainly do not get a spot in every group I hit to join. I don't assume it's because someone is biased against my build. I assume it's because they wanted another class, had friends log in, or just plain hit someone else in the lfm window since we both hit to join around the same time.

I've grouped with you before, I certainly don't remember any issues. That said I've probably been in a group that has declined you before, due to one of the above things I assume when I have been declined.

One of the 2 times I remember getting an outright decline the party leader sent me a tell explaining that my build was unorthodox, and since he didn't know me personally he was reluctant to take a chance. I thanked him for the decline, and wished him luck - no hard feelings.

The other time I sent a thank-you-for-the-decline tell, and the party leader responded with "Thank yourself for gimping your toon" - he thought I was being sarcastic. I feel it's pretty safe to presume he was prejudiced against my particular multiclass.

You are correct, though - I can't read their mind to see why they declined me, and I never send a tell asking why.

[Cyr]

When the party-full message comes 15-20 minutes after I requested a join, I consider it a passive decline.

hehe, I really wouldn't when it comes from my guild in particular. Very slow at forming upon occasion and we might leave that screen up until we figure out who all is coming.

As for the other two people who declined you it hardly sounds like the picture of large scale prejudice against multi-classes. You run tons of quests 2/1000's maybe 10,000's isn't so bad after all

[Kyrn]

Guess ya dont get it. If you have 1 lvl of rogue or 20 lvls of rogue you can still be a good trap monkey enough to get 95% of the traps and locks in the game, a 10/10 Rogue/cleric would beable to do traps along with extra stuff. I am not sayin its a good build its a example.

Flip side to this what would ya rather have in your party a worthless lvl 20 "trap focused" rogue(which 75% of the rogues are) or this 10/10 Rogue/cleric who can still do the traps and add a little something extra. Now this is a example its not a good build but in the hands of a good player this build can fill these "rolls" ppl talk about.

I understand the trap part but...

1) why 10 levels of rogue instead of 2?
2) why 10 levels of cleric instead of 18?

[Jakarr]

I understand the trap part but...

1) why 10 levels of rogue instead of 2?
2) why 10 levels of cleric instead of 18?

Someone posted before me said something about a 10 cleric/10 rogue not being able to do traps and being worthless. I have said in my few posts this is NO THE BEST OR EVEN A GOOD BUILD. I am just defending that a well build/well played 10 cleric/10 rogue can fill a rogues spot and help with some heals dps and buffs. Again I AM NOT SAYING THIS IS A GOOD BUILD OR EVEN A BUILD I WOULD PLAY, I WAS USING IT AS A EXAMPLE.

And personal trap monkey quest?!?



Really it comes down to the person behind the Char not really the char itself.
That is all.

[Uamhas]

On multi-classing:
-I'm a purist. Of all my characters, I only have two multi-class, one of which was specially tailored for me, at my request, by someone that not only knows scads more about D&D than I do, but that knows me well enough to make a fun, durable, damage-dealing, repeater archer that I enjoy playing.
Outside of my personal preferences, I don't care what you do with your character. There are a few head-scratchers that I just plain don't get (for example: why would you multiclass wizard and sorc?) but for the most part, if you don't get me killed or slow me down when I feel like zerging, I'm fine with it.

On Bards:
-My bard (warchanter) is relatively new. I've tried several times before to make a bard, and lost interest by lvl 6, if not far sooner. With a friend's help, (Thanks again Clay) I found a build (Uma <3 Inspire) that sounded interesting, and am having great good fun with her. Mesnee just hit enough xp for lvl 12.
I did mention I'm a purist. She will not be multi-classed, either. While she's not suited for main tank, what she can do is hold her own in melee, especially after the (many juicy extra tasty crispy) bard buffs have been laid down. Oh, did I mention she is fully capable of keeping the crack rolling, AND can cast other spells, too? It's spiffy to make em dance so she can whittle the tougher ones down w/o taking too many hits to the face. She has more songs than she uses in the course of a long quest, let alone the average-sized ones. The lack of sp can be a tiny bit of a crunch, but judicious budgeting of mana usually keeps that from being an issue. You can take what I'm saying as 'you are full of soft brown squishy stink' when you say you can't make a fun, pure-bred bard that can fight worth a dime. You can, so, too, neener neener so there.
-

[Kyrn]

Someone posted before me said something about a 10 cleric/10 rogue not being able to do traps and being worthless. I have said in my few posts this is NO THE BEST OR EVEN A GOOD BUILD. I am just defending that a well build/well played 10 cleric/10 rogue can fill a rogues spot and help with some heals dps and buffs. Again I AM NOT SAYING THIS IS A GOOD BUILD OR EVEN A BUILD I WOULD PLAY, I WAS USING IT AS A EXAMPLE.

And personal trap monkey quest?!?



Really it comes down to the person behind the Char not really the char itself.
That is all.

Personally? A 10 cleric/10 rogue would only be helpful against traps. Like every other build with 2 points into rogue (unless they went UMD instead). What does this class bring other than traps, which almost any other build with 2-splashed rogue classes can do better?
(base assumption: if you MC into rogue instead of monk, you're either a barbarian or do it for trapping/UMD, no gaps in between. Bard has enough skillpoints to throw at trapping skills if they plan to get rogue for evasion)

2 rogue 18 paladin: Better DPS, better heals.
2 rogue 2 fighter 16 bard: Better DPS, better heals, better buffs.
2 rogue 18 FvS/Cleric: Better DPS, better heals, better buffs.
1 rogue 1 X 18 Ranger: Better DPS.
18 rogue X anything: Better DPS (regardless of spec)

Let me just put this another way: By not going 11 cleric, he doesn't even have Heal or Blade Barrier. What exactly is so special about rogue 10 that he had to skip that?

[EDIT] Also, a trap-focused lv 20 rogue would still be far better DPS than a 10 rogue 10 cleric, assuming both are built at equal skill.[/EDIT]