What's the function of constitution in paladin TWF DPS builds?

[brillent]

Looks like most of the TWF builds take Constitution to the 10-to-14 range while leaving the ultra-handy Wisdom languishing down at 8. And then slap Toughness onto the character into the bargain. This seems like backwards thinking to me--surely being able to throw even a Cure Light Wounds or two would rapidly far exceed the HP benefit from a few points of Con. Is there a feat dual-wield paladins take that requires it? I can't think of a way to check that wouldn't involve manually checking each feat in some of the guide builds.

[Jay203]

survivability?
wisdom isn't a high priority for a pally since with a +6 item and a +2 tome you can get to 16 wisdom, which will allow you to cast up to lvl 6 spells
any higher would net you a bit more sp that isn't worth the ability points spent in there

[Cashiry]

survivability?
wisdom isn't a high priority for a pally since with a +6 item and a +2 tome you can get to 16 wisdom, which will allow you to cast up to lvl 6 spells
any higher would net you a bit more sp that isn't worth the ability points spent in there

Pallys only get lvl 4 and lower spells... Wis required is 14.

[Dunklerlindwurm]

Got hit by Horoth for 500 damage recently? Well then you know why you need your Constitution.

[Shaftronics]

Would you elaborate on your question? Its like the arguement of whether you can survive the onslaught of powerful attacks before you can even think about healing. Why bother about healing when you can't even survive to heal in the first place? Paladins have 4 spell levels. They only need 14 Wisdom. Why would they waste valuable, already-stretched points into wisdom? They need a minimum of 15 Dex with a +2 Tome, then there comes the high Cha and Str required after those considerations.

Constitution is important in all builds. Even as a sorcerer. Your point is as arguable as the "dex vs con" Arguement for casters, whether the extra HP to survive or the reflex saves would be more important. In all actuality, it depends on what you prefer and how the person would want to play like; Negating half/all the damage via a save, but having a chance of dying when it fails, or failing more saves, but being significantly more survivable against all odds, with or without saves.

[kelemvelor]

As mentioned, con > wisdom as a base of 8 and a +6 items already guarantees a paladin all the spells that he can cast. Additional wis modifier only gives minimal gains on sp and a paladin's main healing contribution comes from their 'lay on hands' which comes from cha modifier rather than wis modifier.

Basically for melee non-tanks with no evasion, try aiming for 300 ~ 400 HP. Tanks w/o evasion try for 400 ~ 500 HP. Each constitution modifier adds 20 hp to a character by level 20 which goes a long way into helping a character get the health it needs.

[Kriogen]

Got hit by Horoth for 500 damage recently? Well then you know why you need your Constitution.

This.

[Ayseifn]

14 wis, 8 con vs 14 con, 8 wis:

+3 listen/spot
+ ~90 SP
+3 will saves

-60 HP
-3 concentration
-3 fort

The SP gain isn't worth the HP hit because of items like the Torc, concordant opposition greensteel, baubles, wizadry items, spell storing rings, etc. as 90 SP will become a pretty trivial amount of the SP you can spend between shrines.

[Wyrmnax]

If you are dead, you are not doing any damage.


Doesnt matter how much INT you have, how much disable traps, how much wis or how many spellpoints. If you are dead you are not contributing.

What protects you from death?

- Deathblock
- Hit Points


Anything else just makes hitpoints work better ( things like DR, Heavy fortification, better saves, evasion... they just make Hit Points last longer )


Constitution gives you Hit Points. Do you see now why CON is so important?

[Butterknifeninja]

So apparently I`m the only one that thinks this is a joke topic?

[Shiler]

If you are dead, you are not doing any damage.

Word.

But hey. Ive seen 140-200 hp toons at lvl 20, they got owned by beeing hitted once in vod on hard or any other spot, but you are all welcomed to show us were wrong to have hi COn
I dont see any fun in playing toon that cant go melee, / shield block for a while because couple hits make her dead. but if you do, HF

[Angelus_dead]

Looks like most of the TWF builds take Constitution to the 10-to-14 range while leaving the ultra-handy Wisdom languishing down at 8.

Wisdom is not handy at all, except as a low-level convenience to wear fewer items.

This seems like backwards thinking to me--surely being able to throw even a Cure Light Wounds or two would rapidly far exceed the HP benefit from a few points of Con.

You're making a standard mistake, and using a viewpoint which is valid in some other games but not here.

It is incorrect to look at hitpoint total as a resource- they only occasionally have a notable impact in that regard (and mostly when you're doing easy quests solo). The right way to view it is that hitpoints are something that comes from the cleric/healer characters, and each person's hitpoint total is the number he can borrow at one time.

For example, suppose the game got a potion you could buy for a 30-minute buff that gave you +20 hp, but made it so you'd be at 1 hp when entering a dungeon or after resting. Using that potion would frequently be a good idea, because how high your hp can go is a lot more important than whether they're full to start with.

[lord_of_rage]

A dead pally does no DPS. The reason why alot of people are TRing TWF KOTC pallys is to get more hp at endgame. I know I burn 90% of my sp on keeping dps buffs up, ie zeal, divine favor, and self buffed resists. Unless you have specificly set your pally up to self heal via the torc, and conc opp items its not worth it. And its never worth it to sacrifice con for wisdom.

[DoctorWhofan]

Sorry...you just asked why CON is important?

When is it NOT important?

[sirgog]

DPS players take much more damage in this game than they do in other games (like, say, WoW). As such it's worth sacrificing a smidgen of possible DPS in order to pump Constitution even if you'll never be tanking.

In some encounters (particularly Shroud part 4), it's best for all DPS to be able to survive six seconds of the raid boss's attacks without receiving any healing at all (which in that encounter means having Heavy Fortification, 450+hp or 350+ hp and Improved Evasion on Normal, add 100/200 hp for Hard/Elite).

[vVAnjilaVv]

Constitution is probably the most important stat in the game.....weigh your build carefully around it or u will be sorry in most cases.

Not saying it has to be the highest......but it needs to be sufficient, ESPECIALLY for any melee build.

[Trunk-Monkey]

I think HP's in general are way over rated. For that matter, so are Spell points, saves, and the mother of them all... DPS. DPS is WAY overrated.

hey, btw... join Disavowed's pugs

[brillent]

Good answers! Satisfied.

This wasn't a challenge, it was an "I got no idea what DDO combat looks like at higher levels so this choice doesn't make sense to me, explainitplz." Most games would give funny looks to any damage-output character choosing HP buffs over any other stats at all, however marginal, but I spose tanking is less absolute in D&D than it is in most MMOs.

Sooo thanks! The nerdrage factor in somea the replies made me giggle too.

[sirgog]

Good answers! Satisfied.

This wasn't a challenge, it was an "I got no idea what DDO combat looks like at higher levels so this choice doesn't make sense to me, explainitplz." Most games would give funny looks to any damage-output character choosing HP buffs over any other stats at all, however marginal, but I spose tanking is less absolute in D&D than it is in most MMOs.

Sooo thanks! The nerdrage factor in somea the replies made me giggle too.

The biggest differences are that high level bosses rely very heavily on area-of-effect attacks where you can't rely on having them only hit a specific player.

Arraetrikos attacks in melee with a 210-270 degree Cleave attack centered on whoever has his threat (so being behind him is safe) - but his aggro is quite random, making him (almost) untankable. His attacks come quickly and hit fairly hard (~70 damage) and have devastating crits (210 or 280 damage, not sure as I've never tested it). Plus he throws Fireballs at random players for >250 damage.

Plus, in this game some of the most efficient Healing spells hit multiple players. The pinnacle is Mass Heal, but even before you get that expect to use your Mass Cure *** Wounds spells a lot - Mass Cure Moderate costs 20 SP more that single-target Cure Moderate and heals each target for quite a bit more than CMW.

For these reasons, high level melees are *expected* to be immune to critical hits (relatively easy to achieve in this game compared to, say, WoW) and to have defenses allowing them to survive those few seconds between heals. HP are the easiest of these defenses to come by and often the most reliable too.

[Kriogen]

In DDO "frontline" and "backline" doesn't really exists. As Sigrog said, monster have AoE attacks that can hit anyone, even so called "backline caster". Many times you fight in a small, closed space where you can't "hide". On top of that some monsters have "teleport" ability. They like to port behind squishie casters and whack them. ALL builds need HP buffer. Low HP build, any build, is just "dead".

If you do Desert Queen raid, at one point there will be lots of flying blades all over the place. Single hit from those blades is not high, but theres lots of them.

Arraetrikos for example can hit you with 250+ damage. And he can hit anyone. You can't "hide". He even has "teleport player into melee range" ability. You try to hide and he ports you close enough to chop you in small pieces. It's rare, but he does that.

That Horoth can hits for 500 damage.

Even so called "trash" can hit hard. Beholders really like to spam 300+ Disintegrate spell.

This is where those "must have XYZ hit points or reroll" posts come from. It's not braging or something.

Long time ago i was also one of those "I can self-heal so i can get away with less HPs". Until I did some high level quests on Elite. The first time I started to respec was when I did Titan raid on Elite and max level was 12. When I was 1-shoted by some electrical environmental effect in Stormreavers, I visited Fred and took my first Toughness feat ... and this is actually "mid level".