Why a Cleric?

[learst]

You come with the attitude that a raid or an epic is somehow different... I play as a team in every quest... may be Tangleroot at level 4, Play as a team player all through the game, we're in the bloody quest together... I do not care if you're a noob and you're being a bloody eejit touching switches or what-not you should not be... you'll learn, but yes I'll still I'll heal stupid ... it eventually sinks in and they become more alert, more of a team player anyway, and they remember - This is a team. The attitude is taught socially... - when you persist in telling people - you're on your own and that's what they go with ... and come EPIC and Elite in ToD they take that same play style in there with and bloody do not know how to play as a team.

Another great piece from Emili which I totally agree, my emphasis on the bolded.

D&D to me, has always been a team game. A group of folks/characters coming together with different skills complementing each other. I hate soloing, and the only reason I do it is to experience a quest storyline or explore slowly because most folks are too in a hurry to just get it over and done with.

That's the main reason I play a bard, cos I wanna be support, a role I know that a lot of folks shy away from. I'll do whatever the party needs - buff, CC, heals, even melee. As long as we get through the quest.

[Dunfalach]

So I have read all 11 pages of this thread. And here's my take on it.

There are 3 types of cleric being discussed as if they are 2 types of cleric here.

1. Cleric who heals no one, period, ever.
2. Cleric who spot heals as needed but is also actively involved in combat.
3. Cleric healbot who stands back and just heals and buffs while others fight.

The OP seems to have complained about #1, and some people who were #2 jumped in on the belief that he was expecting #3 to defend why they weren't #3. The OP, assuming they understood he was complaining about #1 took their justification of #2 as a justification of #1. Eventually OP realized the misunderstanding and attempted to reiterate that he was talking about #1s. Initially, this was not understood by the #2s, who viewed him as attempting to escape a mistake by claiming to have been talking about something else. Eventually, #2s accepted to some degree that he was talking about #1s, but declared #1s irrelevant to their discussion of #2s vs #3s which is the current thread topic though not apparently the intended original topic.

Nonclerics, #2s, and #3s alike all seem to be agreed that #1s are bad players. Most #2s are of the opinion that #2 is superior to #3, but if you like playing #3 that's okay, it's your char. One #2 feels that #2s are superior to #3s and if you play #3s you're a disgusting incompetent not using your class properly. But we can generally exclude that as the extreme position, as most #2s consider the #3s to be a valid playstyle, just one that would be boring to them personally.

Self-sufficiency is another thread of the argument, which was somewhat muddled initially by the confusion that self-sufficiency was being argued to justify #1s when it was really being argued to justify #2s.

One difficulty when arguing over self-sufficiency is that nobody really level-specifies their arguments. Self-sufficiency for a level 2 or 3 is much different than for a level 16 or 18, as the higher levels can afford to take care of a lot more of their own needs than the low levels can. I'm hopeful that everyone in the debate recognizes that, but not certain.

I first started learning self-sufficiency due to reading up on warforged before playing my first one, and taking to heart the advice to prepare as if you wouldn't get any heals, because some clerics refused to heal WF. I haven't encountered that myself so far, but then I usually tell the clerics not to bother healing me unless I'm getting low in the midst of combat; I find they generally appreciate knowing I'm NOT going to be screaming for heals, and generally do a great job of hitting those spot heals when I really need it.

I did just yesterday with my new level 3 wf fighter meet a guy exactly like that #1 though. He didn't heal, didn't buff, didn't swing his mace, and didn't say a word. He just followed along like a passive hireling, doing nothing. Fortunately he lost connection about 1/4 of the way through and was immediately booted for another who both healed and fought, and did so very well.

I do think that if the LFG says need cleric/fvs or need rogue, then it's entirely reasonable for the group to assume that if you answer it from those classes you are able and willing to heal, or able and willing to handle the traps for a rogue. That doesn't mean those roles are all that class can do, it simply means that an LFG that advertises for just those classes is clearly looking for those roles. Therefore, it would be disingenuous to join that particular group with no intent to fill those roles. That's separate from any discussion over whether or not people should expect those roles. Any group that specifically asks for those classes almost certainly has those roles in mind.

If a group doesn't specify any special looking for, and a cleric joins, the party leader should probably ask and the cleric should probably volunteer whether they're okay being a primary healer. If neither happens, then both sides are failing to communicate rather than just one. But I do know it's an intimidating thing on both sides. The party leader is afraid of getting either a very rude no, or a very rude of course as an answer. The cleric who's not planning to be a primary healer for the group is afraid of getting kicked for one that is. But both sides are probably better off finding out they have different expectations before the quest than in the middle of it. This doesn't mean I don't still make the mistake of not asking sometimes as a party leader.

I keep saying cleric because I was actually on DDO for several months before I knew that a FvS could be a primary healer. I hadn't encountered many FvS, and all those that I did encounter were melee specs who almost exclusively self-healed. So I got used to treating a FvS as being essentially a fancy paladin. Good for a pinch heal here or there, but generally busy in the battle line. I first learned that they could do primary healing in reading a forum thread. :>

[Failedlegend]

So I have read all 11 pages of this thread. And here's my take on it.

There are 3 types of cleric being discussed as if they are 2 types of cleric here.

1. Cleric who heals no one, period, ever.
2. Cleric who spot heals as needed but is also actively involved in combat.
3. Cleric healbot who stands back and just heals and buffs while others fight.

Awesome summary...cut from quote for brevity...see previous post please

I've been follwoing this thread mostly just to lurk and hadnt planned to post again due to the hostile nature of the responses I got but I felt the need to thank you...nice summary I'm glad at least a few people got my point +1 to your sir

[taurean430]

I haven't read all of this 10 page thread, so I'll probably end up repeating things already said, but I'm going to say them anyway.

1. If you show up in a group with a cleric icon next to your name, and you don't heal, or you suck at it, people aren't going to like you very much.

2. No "battle cleric" will ever do as much damage as a barbarian, fighter, or paladin of their level. No way. No how.

3. I want someone to post a video of Shroud Part IV/Part V that's done WITHOUT a healer. Seriously, I want to see that. The only conceivable way this could be done is you've got a party full of harry-beating tanks that are just uber, or you've got a group with a bunch of UMD using rogues and bards with HEAL scrolls that make a fair substitute. The first isn't going to happen randomly, and the second would get wicked expensive after a while.

1. If you don't make a minimal effort to avoid taking heavy damage faster than my cooldowns, you will spend most of the quest in my backpack. Outside of a raid situation, it borders on insulting to me personally to expect everyone else to do everything for you. People will receive appropriate buffs and mass/spot heals dependent on the situation. However, requiring health pumped into you to the degree that I have seen in many pugs to date is not needed. It coddles poor play, and has been the main contributor regarding capped toons full of fail. They were carried and powerhealed to cap and know very little on how to keep themselves alive in a quest. And they are the very first to blame others for their own ineptitude.

2. It's funny that you mention that. I've seen Favored Souls or Clerics tank raid bosses alone. Can any of your uber dps toons do that? I have personally finished a boss fight in a raid with no mana left to heal myself following a near wipe. I've also led the infamous kill count in many a high level quest. It means nothing as it's a team effort. The amount of damage any toon can do does not entitle them to subjugating another player into merely following them around spamming cures/heals/buffs. Think about it for a minute... Do you honestly think that every player who has ever rolled up a class/multiclass with any healing capability did so for the exclusive purpose of babysitting you?


3. I think you'll have to come up with a much better example than Shroud. Nearly everyone posting in this thread agree that raids require dedicated heals. Incidentally, 'healer' is a role. It's not a class in this game. This slot can be filled by a large percentage of the classes available in this game. This is why one will see all (insert class here) Shroud/VOD/TOD/Abbot runs. Put frankly: if you honestly believe that the only purpose of classes with any healing capability is to sit back and watch red bars, you have some marked tunnelvision.

I have melee toons, arcane casting toons, healing toons. In addition I have some rather interesting multiclass experiments that I solo with only. It is expected and perhaps unwritten (really should be written): that if your primary goal is dps, and you are not in a raid setting, take steps to not be an drain on the resources of others. If you can't do that, expect to find yourself waiting around for a 'healer' And when you do find one and repeatedly get yourself killed by playing selfishly, expect to stay dead from one shrine to the next.

[Nezichiend]

/snips
2. It's funny that you mention that. I've seen Favored Souls or Clerics tank raid bosses alone. Can any of your uber dps toons do that? I have personally finished a boss fight in a raid with no mana left to heal myself following a near wipe. I've also led the infamous kill count in many a high level quest. It means nothing as it's a team effort. The amount of damage any toon can do does not entitle them to subjugating another player into merely following them around spamming cures/heals/buffs. Think about it for a minute... Do you honestly think that every player who has ever rolled up a class/multiclass with any healing capability did so for the exclusive purpose of babysitting you?

As a cleric with mainly cleric levels I would say your role is to keep the dps sustainable, which means keeping the dps alive, if that means healing someone who is doing cc, fine. I really couldn't care less if you are a battle-cleric or not. Your secondary role could be dps or crowd control, whatever you want. But you still must keep people alive. That is your role. You will not EVER do as much damage as a well-spec'd and geared fighter/barb/paladin or other dps classes. That doesn't mean you can't contribute, but when you want to melee and you let other people die who do more damage than you, you are greifing.

[Karavek]

Unbelievable, adequate healing is a major part of a balanced group, just like having an arcane, a melee and a rogue is too.

Not every player is TR'ed, geared up to the hilt or wealthy enough to be able to be self sufficient.

Having a group with all but one of the above and therefore asking for it is nothing to be ashamed of.

Imp is right. Saying NEED A HEALER is a warning to all real healers to stay away lest they meet the team that has them burning through wands. There is indeed no end to high end content that makes many feel a healer is essential, however that does not mean every healer is going to jump at it.

[Karavek]

As a cleric with mainly cleric levels I would say your role is to keep the dps sustainable, which means keeping the dps alive, if that means healing someone who is doing cc, fine. I really couldn't care less if you are a battle-cleric or not. Your secondary role could be dps or crowd control, whatever you want. But you still must keep people alive. That is your role. You will not EVER do as much damage as a well-spec'd and geared fighter/barb/paladin or other dps classes. That doesn't mean you can't contribute, but when you want to melee and you let other people die who do more damage than you, you are greifing.

letting others die as you put it is not griefing. Anyone is free to use heal pots, or buy res pots if they die and yes I expect people to just to support the game I want to see thrive. Actually nothing about a DPS specced non caster class actually outpaces the dps a caster/battle cleric can do. One can spec to be a caster/battle cleric, still heal pretty well, and nothing anywhere says they ahve to waste a point of mana on another player. Ive burned no few wands in my day getting groups through some hard things, not heard one tahnks nor recieved a coin to help recover my used up supplies.

I expect everone to do whatever it takes to take care of themselves if they cant do it purely through in game means then time to spend real cash. If your to cheap to do that you dont need to roll with me and expect me to burn my play time watching you do the fun stuff.

[vVAnjilaVv]

It's simple OP, clerics are a class that can heal very well, but they are not nor meant to be solely healers.

Any cleric that is only a healbot IMO is a disgrace to this awesome and powerful class, and I personally can't stand being in raids/quests where the dippy healbots can't even play a healbot because they don't know how to defend themselves and/or have adapted the philosophy that if they are not actually doing any offense that they are completely safe.

A REAL cleric is never going to join a "need a healer" group because there is nothing more annoying than only using 1/3 of your builds capabilities to keep alive a bunch of meatheads who have no tact.

[Dunfalach]

I expect everone to do whatever it takes to take care of themselves if they cant do it purely through in game means then time to spend real cash. If your to cheap to do that you dont need to roll with me and expect me to burn my play time watching you do the fun stuff.

Without regard to the issue of expecting the cleric to be nothing but a healbot, do please take into consideration when advising the spending of real money that with American unemployment at record levels, a lot of people have to watch every dollar they spend. I'm sure some of our European friends are experiencing the same thing. Buying stuff from the DDO Store is not feasible for every person playing. I've got a job, and thank the Lord I do, but the times I have spare cash for games are very rare and mostly saved up for adventure packs or other things more important to my longer term DDO enjoyment. That said, I do try to be as self-sufficient as my in-game cash allows for most of the time. One of the things that made buying warforged a good use of my points was that long list of immunities I don't have to buy fixes for.

[Karavek]

Last time I checked, a single bard/rogue level would unlock the skill. Just like the fighter will have to take rogue levels for his DD. To me, it is extremely simple: refuse to heal, deal with what you can't deal with.

I've done it some times in the past days and did not get any bad comments about this... Well, beside from the clerics who died this way, but it's a good thing they won't come with me in the group anymore

that was the point. A pure rogue can self heal quite well, a pure cleric cant disable traps though they can frequently walk past them as if they dont exist.

The other point is that you dont have a right to expect someone to waste thier resources on you like mana. A battle cleric or caster cleric has the right to do as they like for play. However a trap monkey is a trap monkey. If they are an assassin or a acrobat I dont even care if they cant trap that was as valid a choice to me as not being a healer as a cleric.

But if you can trap then trap. If you want someone else to use spells on you give thema stack of mana pots or some wands.

[Karavek]

Without regard to the issue of expecting the cleric to be nothing but a healbot, do please take into consideration when advising the spending of real money that with American unemployment at record levels, a lot of people have to watch every dollar they spend. I'm sure some of our European friends are experiencing the same thing. Buying stuff from the DDO Store is not feasible for every person playing. I've got a job, and thank the Lord I do, but the times I have spare cash for games are very rare and mostly saved up for adventure packs or other things more important to my longer term DDO enjoyment. That said, I do try to be as self-sufficient as my in-game cash allows for most of the time. One of the things that made buying warforged a good use of my points was that long list of immunities I don't have to buy fixes for.

Not saying if your broke or jobless to go beg on the street to feed your game habit. But if like me and many gamers I have known, actually have quite a surplus of cash for whatever reason, then throw some bones the way of the DDO dog.

Buying advent packs is the smart way to invest for sure and I am thankful to anyone who does choose to do that.

[PopeJual]

The other point is that you dont have a right to expect someone to waste thier resources on you like mana. A battle cleric or caster cleric has the right to do as they like for play.

They have a right to run with a 6 con, 80 HP at level 20 turn-undead specced drow gimpatron if they want to. That doesn't mean it's a good choice and I'll probably let them know what I think of them if they make that choice, too.

I don't expect anyone to "waste" their consumeable resources. I don't expect them to chug mnemonic pots to keep me alive. I don't expect them to wand whip the entire party in between fights. I don't expect them to drain their entire blue bar to keep a 0% fortification Death Frenzied Warforged Barbarian with no healing amp alive.

I do expect them to burn just a little of their renewable resources so that I don't have to spend a thousand plat and 10 minutes per quest chugging pots when they could have thrown a heal and a mass cure or two to do what I needed a full stack of pots to do.

I want *everyone* to use their renewable resources efficiently and effectively so that no one has to use their consumeable resources except in extraordinary circumstances.

[biggin]

But if you can trap then trap. If you want someone else to use spells on you give thema stack of mana pots or some wands.

Do you give a rogue Thieves Tools everytime you want him to pick a lock?

[Karavek]

Do you give a rogue Thieves Tools everytime you want him to disarm a trap?

actually whenever I find stacks of good rogue tools I immediatly send them to any rogue I know who has mentioned lacking the favor needed to access buying +4s from the free agent vendor.

However the cost of tools and thier frequent drop rate really makes that comparison to costly healing items seem very slanted and lack any real impact as a point being made.

[biggin]

actually whenever I find stacks of good rogue tools I immediatly send them to any rogue I know who has mentioned lacking the favor needed to access buying +4s from the free agent vendor.

However the cost of tools and thier frequent drop rate really makes that comparison to costly healing items seem very slanted and lack any real impact as a point being made.

Actually that's exactly the point. If you've been playing since 06 and you can't easily cover the cost of wands and scrolls you're doing something wrong. I easily spend less on my cleric on wands/scrolls than I do damage on my Barbs gear from tanking raids.

Any cleric worth anything can keep any decent PUG battle healed with little to no resources. If you can't then maybe it's not everyone elses fault.

[taurean430]

As a cleric with mainly cleric levels I would say your role is to keep the dps sustainable, which means keeping the dps alive, if that means healing someone who is doing cc, fine. I really couldn't care less if you are a battle-cleric or not. Your secondary role could be dps or crowd control, whatever you want. But you still must keep people alive. That is your role. You will not EVER do as much damage as a well-spec'd and geared fighter/barb/paladin or other dps classes. That doesn't mean you can't contribute, but when you want to melee and you let other people die who do more damage than you, you are greifing.

My 'role' is to have fun playing. And I've made it very clear in other posts I have in these forums how negatively I feel about healbot only divine builds. Some people have fun playing them, I don't. I am still of the opinion that it's as interesting to play a healbot as it is to watch grass grow. Roles, as you define them work very well for most raid settings and perhaps three or four quests in this game to date. For the overwhelming majority of content in this game, it's reasonable to expect people to play the game intelligently. It's also reasonable to come to the understanding that if you are playing badly and die that blaming the 'healer' is pretty sad. Regardless of what character I'm on, I'll contribute and take steps not to die in a quest. The same cannot be said for many, many players out there.

I could care less what type of damage numbers I do compared to a frenzy barb outside of most raids. I've never griefed anyone ever. Yet I have no problem letting people learn that repeatedly taking heavy damage from mobs/traps/enviornment effects will leave you dead. The whole argument consisting of I am a max dps whatever so you should follow me around spamming heals is bunk. In the game proper, the majority of people I have encountered that knee jerk to that argument are the same ones who showed up to the quest with little to no health/don't know how to back out of a fight/run rooms ahead of the party for kill count bragging rights/run repeatedly through traps etc...

I've seen plenty of cases bad healing and made comment about most of them. I've seen far more bad dps. There is nearly always a shortage of people willing to roll up toons that heal. Ever wonder why that is?

[Calebro]

I've seen plenty of cases bad healing and made comment about most of them. I've seen far more bad dps. There is nearly always a shortage of people willing to roll up toons that heal. Ever wonder why that is?

^this^
.... kind of.

There are plenty of Clerics and Favored Souls out there. Tons of them, in fact. But they run with guildies and/or solo because they don't want to deal with the common PUG mentality that their blue bar is one giant band-aid.
It's specifically the mentality that taurean spoke of that causes them to not pug, go anon, and therefore not "exist" for the puggers to pike with.

Every single "healer" that I've ever played is set to anon. There's a reason for that.
None of my other toons are anon....

[Entelech]

I think a big part of the bitterness in this debate is the resource-intensive nature of Epic content.

There's nothing like burning 30,000 plat worth of scrolls and potions to keep some pugger group alive, only to have them ninja all the epic scrolls and log out.


I also think that the lack of XP available to TR'ed characters at high level contributes greatly to the problem. Some guy working on Life 5.17 gets really upset when a newbie, or a guy on an experimental build, costs them that 10%. The screaming that results turns a lot of players off to the 'elitist a-hole mentality' and causes them to avoid seeking advice or from taking it when offered.

And let's face it. NOBODY on their first toon to cap is going to be able to keep up with a multiple-TRed hardcore zergathon.

[Entelech]

By the way...has anyone also been noticing a shortage of tanks?

I see a lot of VoD's and Hounds that sit waiting ages for a chew toy.

If none of the Clerics want to be bothered with healing, how long is a tank going to be able to do his job? I suspect the problems are related.

[DrNuegebauer]

I haven't read all of this 10 page thread, so I'll probably end up repeating things already said, but I'm going to say them anyway.

1. If you show up in a group with a cleric icon next to your name, and you don't heal, or you suck at it, people aren't going to like you very much.

2. No "battle cleric" will ever do as much damage as a barbarian, fighter, or paladin of their level. No way. No how.

3. I want someone to post a video of Shroud Part IV/Part V that's done WITHOUT a healer. Seriously, I want to see that. The only conceivable way this could be done is you've got a party full of harry-beating tanks that are just uber, or you've got a group with a bunch of UMD using rogues and bards with HEAL scrolls that make a fair substitute. The first isn't going to happen randomly, and the second would get wicked expensive after a while.

I think you're confusing a few things - and the points you make pretty clearly show your confusion.

On point 2: correct. However "ubaaaa DPS isn't needed to complete a quest - the amount a cleric or FvS can put out (if specced) is plenty enough. You are attempting to suggest that a cleric or FvS NEEDS a barb/fighter/pally (you left out rogue/ranger btw) - but not equalling the DPS and NEEDING the DPS is a different thing altogether.

On point 3: you contradict your point 2 here. You might be right that you can't do a Shroud part IV or V without a 'hJealer' - however 12 FvS/ clerics could quite easily complete a Shroud part IV or V. IE - they don't NEED the melee to do it. (it might not be optimal - but absolutely doable)


And that comes back to the point being argued by so many in this thread: who wants to follow gimps around and top up their red bars WHEN THEY JUST DON'T NEED TO?

I still say anyone who thinks there needs to be more HJealers on their server should just roll one and get on with it.