Why a Cleric?

[cpito]

I have a question: What's the consensus (if there is one) on people who enjoy playing a "healbot" type of character? Someone who enjoys focussing solely on party support?

I have two clerics. Joious is my healbot and then there's Jusste, the combat caster. I love playing Joi, she's my second baby and older than Jusste by almost two years but, without a doubt she is more work to play. She requires a different mindset and demands much more of my attention and there have been many evenings playing through some difficut dungeons that have left me simply exhausted. It was during the vast, mysterious, dark days, when most of the people playing got really good at DDO's limited number of quests that healbotting got really boring (omg, somebody please at least break a nail and give me something too do!) so I started playing around with some of Joi's potential. She has all those other really cool spells but is not as effective as she could be with them since she is healing specced. I like her that way. She's my money-maker and (when I'm on my game) my miracle worker but I knew I had to try a different type of cleric.

Jusste is a blast to play! Yea, she heals when she has to and tries to do most of it off scrolls (which I'm lucky enough to be able to afford) but not nearly effectively as Joi does. Instead she commands almost at will, banishes, destructs, chops, knocksdown and holds just about everything in her path. She all but gift wraps the mobs for the rest of the party. I'm gleefully looking forward to implosion! It has been my observation though that when she steps back to strictly heal, things tend not to get any better. The party really is better off if I spend my mana preventing them from getting hurt in the first place.

I know that in end-game raids, her role will change and she will be expected to heal more and I'll make sure she gets the gear to switch out to make her a better healer for those times but I'm also looking forward to my turn kiting the orthons in a VoD speed run and being back-up in ToD2

[Failedlegend]

OK there's obviously been a misunderstanding...first off yes I am a somewhat of a new player and my opinion is based off what I've experienced so far.

Anyways I am NOT saying that all Cleric,etc. should be healbots...actually they shouldn't be because their seriously lowering their usefulness...when I'm complaining about a Cleric,etc. that refusing to heal I mean AT ALL. Here's an example that I've seen frequently...

....We start off a quest we have 2 WF and 4 Fleshies...WF = Wiz/Rog (Me) and a Barbarian Fleshies = Cleric, Another Barb, A ranger and a Fighter...We start the quest and after a few battles I notice that while The WF Barb Me and the ranger (who is handling herself) are kept mostly filled HP wise the Barb and Fighter are struggling with potions Mid-Battle, So I take a look at the Cleric's Mana bar it's full... maybe 10 or 20sp used if any at all. I ask why he's not healing and he replies I'm a Battle Cleric besides they should be self-sufficient.

Now that was NOT one occasion I just made up the classes,etc. but it seem to be the attitude of alot of the clerics ""I group with"" except my guildies...maybe I just have bad luck with PuGs. So when some of the people who replied saying that's a perfectly good cleric I couldn't understand why you could even think that. I'm actually going to try to Make My Own Cleric as a secondary character

Oh but even with the reasons given it's still kinda bad practice not to join party's that say looking for healer...party's say looking for arcane or rogue all the time and I don't refuse to join because of that quite the opposite.... sure SOME saying that might be looking for a babysitter but that's just the nature of PuGs but I guess that's your decision.

Oh and just so you don't ask yes I carry around status removing wands/pots as well as repair wands and even a few divine wands (referring to Kraite) that my UMD can handle so I can get by without a Cleric,etc. things are just ALOT easier with one it makes things alot quicker and less resource draining.

Lastly I will NEVER expect a cleric,etc. to use wands or scrolls once their mana is gone it's gone (mind you the few good clerics I've run with have little trouble conserving SP) although I won't complain if they do.

[guardianx2009]

You know, clerics like those are the ones that gives "battle cleric" a bad rap. You just ran into a bad egg, I've run into one once myself too - my cleric was out of SP and the favored soul has 90% left, group leader asks him if he can heal plz, he said "sure" and that's it...

I don't know why some ppl when they make a melee specced cleric they think they're exempt from providing heals.

All clerics should provide healing. Battle Clerics should still have enough SP to provide healing, and they should be carrying wands to supplement their SP too.

[Failedlegend]

You know, clerics like those are the ones that gives "battle cleric" a bad rap. You just ran into a bad egg, I've run into one once myself too - my cleric was out of SP and the favored soul has 90% left, group leader asks him if he can heal plz, he said "sure" and that's it...

I don't know why some ppl when they make a melee specced cleric they think they're exempt from providing heals.

All clerics should provide healing. Battle Clerics should still have enough SP to provide healing, and they should be carrying wands to supplement their SP too.

Well that example was just made up I was referring to multiple occasions...maybe I'm just not high enough for the bad ones to get weeded out....and while I haven't played My Battle Cleric yet it looks quite capable of healing ALMOST as well as a so-called "healbot" without sacrificing too much...but thats just in theory and from my own assumptions (which aren't based on much).

[justagame]

I can't speak for others, but I think the now-overused quip "if you don't want to heal, why did you roll a cleric?" is a complete misrepresentation of what this issue is about.

For one, most good clerics I know don't mind healing, and even enjoy healing. I love the satisfaction of pulling a party's arse out of the fire now and then. Of course, helping said arses from getting into the fire in the first place is an equally fun part of the job. The complaint by clerics has nothing to do with "not wanting to heal" -- it's not wanting to play constant nanny to players who refuse to do the slightest thing to look out for themselves.

Secondly, the class is called cleric, not healer. Yes, clerics heal, and heal well. But it's not ALL they do. The analogy the OP used "... that's like a wizard who won't use spells" is a patently false one. Believe it or now, clerics actually get six spells per level, not just one. Expecting your cleric to do nothing but simply mash the heal hotkey over and over to make up for your lack of responsibility is actually like saying to the wizard "just stay back and keep me hasted and stoneskinned, and let me do the quest." Now, in some quests, like parts 4 and 5 of Shroud, clerics pretty much ARE healbots. But there are many, many quests in which they aren't, or at least shouldn't be. If you're not running a tough raid or endgame quest, yet need a constant healbot, YOU are the problem, not the cleric. As others have said, I try to avoid such players whenever possible. To many good clerics, an LFM for an ordinary-difficulty quest that states "need healz" is like a big neon sign that says "stay away."

[Phidius]

... Expecting your cleric to do nothing but simply mash the heal hotkey over and over to make up for your lack of responsibility is actually like saying to the wizard "just stay back and keep me hasted and stoneskinned, and let me do the quest."...

You haven't heard this yet? It's the reason a friend of mine shelved his sorceror...

[sirdanile]

Let's look at the rest of the clases then, shall we?

Cleric: can heal
Favored Soul: can heal
Paladin: Lay on Hands, cure spells, and cure wands, easy to get UMD high
Bard: UMD, cure spells, and cure wands
Ranger: cure spells and cure wands
Monk: (light path) Fists of Light, Healing Ki, Wholeness of Body
Rogue: UMD
Wizard: bugged to use cure wands, self heal if WF
Sorcerer: self heal if WF, easy to get UMD high
Barbarian: screwed
Fighter: plenty of feats if halfling to take Dragonmarks, otherwise screwed

So that's 2 out of 11 classes with no self healing, one of which can get it easily if the right race is played.

What exactly do you need a healer for?

Don't forget silver flame potions, my barb can solo amrath easily with them (combination dr and missive heals, as well as the fact -10 stats don't hurt a barb if you plan for it)

Fighter has a little bit harder time soloing due to the lack of X/- dr but remains effective at soloing with flame potions.

[Failedlegend]

For one, most good clerics I know don't mind healing, and even enjoy healing. I love the satisfaction of pulling a party's arse out of the fire now and then. Of course, helping said arses from getting into the fire in the first place is an equally fun part of the job. The complaint by clerics has nothing to do with "not wanting to heal" -- it's not wanting to play constant nanny to players who refuse to do the slightest thing to look out for themselves.

This paragraph I agree with but the rest..well read on


Please read the entire thread before responding...here's one point I said somewhere up there ^^^ that nulls alot of your complaints.

I am NOT saying that all Cleric,etc. should be healbots...actually they shouldn't be because their seriously lowering their usefulness...when I'm complaining about a Cleric,etc. that refusing to heal I mean AT ALL.

Also I said this in the OP...I know this isnt their ONLY job but it's their unique thing that other classes can't do (or cant do as well).

There was quite a misunderstanding about what I was complaining about and alot of posters assumed I wanted a nanny bot (and I got defensive about it because I thought they read the same thing i thought I wrote) but I was only talking about players who ignore the fact the have healing spells (Which IIRC are auto-slotted anyways) or any spells at all and just melee.

As far as the word healer = cleric I'm sorry I try to avoid using that word as it seems kinda taboo here In DDOland.....if it makes you feel better sometimes I say Wiz = caster or Fighter = The Tank or DPS.

[Impaqt]

This paragraph I agree with but the rest..well read on


Please read the entire thread before responding...here's one point I said somewhere up there ^^^ that nulls alot of your complaints.

I am NOT saying that all Cleric,etc. should be healbots...actually they shouldn't be because their seriously lowering their usefulness...when I'm complaining about a Cleric,etc. that refusing to heal I mean AT ALL.

Also I said this in the OP...I know this isnt their ONLY job but it's their unique thing that other classes can't do (or cant do as well).

There was quite a misunderstanding about what I was complaining about and alot of posters assumed I wanted a nanny bot (and I got defensive about it because I thought they read the same thing i thought I wrote) but I was only talking about players who ignore the fact the have healing spells (Which IIRC are auto-slotted anyways) or any spells at all and just melee.

As far as the word healer = cleric I'm sorry I try to avoid using that word as it seems kinda taboo here In DDOland.....if it makes you feel better sometimes I say Wiz = caster or Fighter = The Tank or DPS.

And there is still one thing you fail to understand through all of this....

This isnt about bad "Clerics" or Bad "Healers" at all.

This is about bad Players.

You wound up in a couple bad pugs. It happens... Since DDO:U, it happens a LOT even.

You want to waste your breath complaining about bad players, knock yourself out. all kinds of threads and general chat about that all the time. Its not gonna change anything.

You wanna Complain about "Clerics" and "Healers" not doing their job, thats where I(And others) have an issue. THe issue involes YOU and some BAD players you ran with. NOT "Clerics" or "Healers".

A Good player, regardless of what their Icon is will work with the team. A Bad player will play selfishly. Its got very little do do with their class, build, or icon.

[Calebro]

Don't forget silver flame potions, my barb can solo amrath easily with them (combination dr and missive heals, as well as the fact -10 stats don't hurt a barb if you plan for it)

Fighter has a little bit harder time soloing due to the lack of X/- dr but remains effective at soloing with flame potions.

The average Barbarian has neither the ability points to stay functional after drinking that pot, nor the favor required to get them to begin with.
You have to remember that most players are now in the f2p/premium category and simply don't have all of Necro to get that much SF favor.
So while in theory Barbs can use these pots to keep themselves healed, in a practical sense it's unlikely that they have that option. Plus, but the time that they do have that option, you're running in groups that usually have a healer rather than running BYOH quests..

[joaofalcao]

Hi,

I play with my wife. We have many couples of characters that interact and complement each other. I got this drow cleric and she got his partner, a drow defender. We built the couple to be able to defeat the Demon Queen. Girl got AC 60 and can shield block the demon queen, while my cleric would garantee eventual damage. Flagged casters are easy to find, so firewall her would not be a problem.

I like healling my wife. Its kinda silly, but its a way to care for her when she is in danger or protecting players, wich she does a lot. Thats what a defender does best after all.

And this is reflected at other party members. I heal the guys I like, the folks that are teamplaying and contributing to the party. The liabilities, wich so often are "self suficient", that goes ahead of the party, that get stray from the defender and get silly damage, I dont heal. Those guys are often called "Squarepants Bob Sponge". Theyre a sponge, they dry up you sp. Not to speak of the spoil. Girls dont like it quick. A quest is an experience to enjoy, not a means to get xp or loot. Why players want to do things so fast? Rushing and dying usually takes more time than a little preparation. A simple neutralize poison can avoid certain death at the casters next corner, but people simply dont listen. And when players dont talk to each other on an online game, I am not having fun.

Everything is explained. When I post LFM, I always specify whats wanted. When we enter a dungeon, I always make some statements. Still, theres always liabilities.

So, a cleric may not heal party members that rush, that dont listen, that sort of stuff.

On the other hand, I ve been in a party with a cleric... that doesnt wants to be a cleric. He is always busy meleeing, getting tripped or forgetting whatsoever to heal other party members. He never dies tough. Your health going down is so much easier to realize than the other party members, I suppose. The guy is there because he wants to heal himself and likes melee. Sometimes, a cleric is just a selfish person.

Who knows whats happening? Anyone got a cristal ball? Maybe you should just ask. Have you ever tryed that? I find so funny why people are not talking to each other. Its an online game after all.

[Calebro]

The liabilities, wich so often are "self suficient", that goes ahead of the party, that get stray from the defender and get silly damage, I dont heal. Those guys are often called "Squarepants Bob Sponge". Theyre a sponge, they dry up you sp.

There is a big difference between a self sufficient player that runs ahead and an ill prepared zerger that does the same.
If they're being a sponge, they are the latter. Not the former.
A self sufficient player, by definition, is not a sponge.

[ninjaeli]

Wrong.
Look at my list above. Barbarians have to give something up to be self-sufficient, and most fighters.
Everyone else simply SHOULD BE self-sufficient.
And even those Barbs and Fighters should carry some potions, so where's the problem?

having alot of the aggro most of the time, and CS pots only healing for 20-30 of their 500-600+hp.
(pls give us cure critical wounds pots/wands)

[bunitchu]

ok guys, here is thedeal i got so far:

I know many classes can find a way to self heal, some will use heal scrolls, some will use their class habilities, and some others...wand and pots.

i for example, have my lvl 13 paladin. I have good charisma, 4 lay on hands that go for 130-140(something around that, dont remember very well the numbers) right now, unwielding sov, and a huge pack of wands. If the cleric by my side, wants to comet fall the mobs, or bb them, or crowd control, all fine, everybody deserves his fun =3, and as long as i can self heal with EFFECTIVE stuff, i wont bother asking for heal. Problem is, when i run out of LoH and my unwielding is still recharging. If paladins could recover LoH use just like they do with smite, or if US had a faster recovery, all good, problems is, once the loh are done, they are done all the way to a shrine, and US recharges pretty slow, and if the cleric do not have a reliable way to help me finish fast the mobs, or if he is running low on mana and the shrine is still sort of far, i would most appreciate it, if he could spare his remaining mana for heals, at least till we reach a shrine.

I dont want a cleric that will sit on his a$$ and do nothing but heal or buff, thats a waste of potential and i would b offended by it, but a cleric must know that when a shrine is far, and his mana is already below the 50%, the time to play is over and he must work hard for keeping the group alive untill we reach shrine an b ready to go kicking stuff around again , unless he has confidence that his offensive spells or melee potential will b able to clear a path better than some dpsers beating on stuff and tearing a path open to the shrine.

i also have a cleric, and i do know how irritating it is to have a stupid punk running to his death and u have to run after him to avoid it, to in the end hear something like "the healer s.ucked, he didnt heal meee!!!", but sometimes, if the melees can do a faster job than ur spells to kill mobs, the best thing to do is to give them support so they pry the way to the shrine open with less difficulty. Clerics can help in many ways, but if they refuse to heal just because the dps could pull a wand out of his butt and start healing instead of attacking, he is just being lame and jeopardizing the group.

Point is, cleric can help in many ways, but healing will never cease to b one of them. whatever you want to do for helping your party, do it, but b sure that you can also keep an eye for ur buddies health bar, because a good cleric is not the one who sits back and heal, but the one who know when its necessary to stop doing whatever he was doing before and land a heal on a dying comrade

[Volaxis]

You guys are right, if a group has a healer in it, then there all gimps who dont know how to play.

I understand the need to show your superiority by showing you can complete a quest without a 'nanny', but I dont see why a healer would not join an LFM that was advertising for FVS or CLR. In fact thats about 99% of groups. Perhaps your trying, in an extreme way, to show there are different play styles, but a cleric healing 4 melees will run a quest faster than 5 melees standing around waiting on the wand whip, and speed is very desirable. It also depends on context, clerics are not so vital playing heytons rest.

IMHO I'd take 5 barbs and a cleric over 6 rangers anyday.

[Phidius]

You guys are right, if a group has a healer in it, then there all gimps who dont know how to play.

I understand the need to show your superiority by showing you can complete a quest without a 'nanny', but I dont see why a healer would not join an LFM that was advertising for FVS or CLR...

Usually it's because a quest LFM that is advertising for FvS/Clr only is composed of people who need their healbot to watch their red bar and not let it get too low. That's not fun for a majority of the clerics that I've run with, although I suppose there are a few who enjoy that playstyle.

... In fact thats about 99% of groups. Perhaps your trying, in an extreme way, to show there are different play styles, but a cleric healing 4 melees will run a quest faster than 5 melees standing around waiting on the wand whip, and speed is very desirable...

Not when you factor in the amount of time you have to wait to get that cleric. I've run the same quest twice in a row watching the LFM that's waiting for a healer.

[Entelech]

Sigh...

I LOATHE the term "Battle Cleric".

There was this one Shroud run with a straight Cleric 20 on it. The group leader asked her if she was a healer and, knowing she'd have been dumped from the group in a heartbeat, she said "yes."

She then proceeded to die FOUR TIMES IN PART ONE.

Yes, that's right, somehow she managed to die in Part one. Repeatedly.

She was NOT 'self sufficient'. She was just pathetic. She would charge off and start trying to solo some troglodyte piece of trash in melee, and would flail away at it enthusiastically after she had dragged it off into a corner away from the arcanes. And then, when she'd beat it down to 80% or so, it killed her because she was too freaking stupid to even heal herself.

Then, after whining at me for a Res, she did it again. And again. And again. She died 5 seconds into Part 2 and I left her dead.

Needless to say, Part Four was over quickly.

I don't expect *any* Cleric to play as a pure nannybot. I let the zergtastic Warforged barbarians with AC 8 die when they don't take Healer's friend when playing mine. But let's face it, if you have some major beef with casting healing spells to benefit the group, WHY THE HECK ARE YOU PLAYING A CLERIC?

Most competent Clerics learn quickly to avoid the "PLZ PLZ N33D H34L3R!!!!1111" LFM's. But I believe they should also avoid referring to themselves as a "Battle Cleric". Most everyone who is NOT a Battle Cleric has learned to read "Battle Cleric" as "Window-Licking ******".

Better to not say anything and let them think you foolish than to open your mouth and remove all doubt.

[GBantaR]

...maybe I'm just not high enough for the bad ones to get weeded out....

Hehehehehe...you said "high" and "weed" in the same sentence. Naughty naughty...

[justagame]

Sigh...

I LOATHE the term "Battle Cleric".

There was this one Shroud run with a straight Cleric 20 on it. The group leader asked her if she was a healer and, knowing she'd have been dumped from the group in a heartbeat, she said "yes."

She then proceeded to die FOUR TIMES IN PART ONE.

Yes, that's right, somehow she managed to die in Part one. Repeatedly.

She was NOT 'self sufficient'. She was just pathetic. She would charge off and start trying to solo some troglodyte piece of trash in melee, and would flail away at it enthusiastically after she had dragged it off into a corner away from the arcanes. And then, when she'd beat it down to 80% or so, it killed her because she was too freaking stupid to even heal herself.

Then, after whining at me for a Res, she did it again. And again. And again. She died 5 seconds into Part 2 and I left her dead.

Needless to say, Part Four was over quickly.

I don't expect *any* Cleric to play as a pure nannybot. I let the zergtastic Warforged barbarians with AC 8 die when they don't take Healer's friend when playing mine. But let's face it, if you have some major beef with casting healing spells to benefit the group, WHY THE HECK ARE YOU PLAYING A CLERIC?

Most competent Clerics learn quickly to avoid the "PLZ PLZ N33D H34L3R!!!!1111" LFM's. But I believe they should also avoid referring to themselves as a "Battle Cleric". Most everyone who is NOT a Battle Cleric has learned to read "Battle Cleric" as "Window-Licking ******".

Better to not say anything and let them think you foolish than to open your mouth and remove all doubt.

What on earth does this have to do with battle clerics? What you just described is a bad cleric, period.

[GBantaR]

So...

The cleric telling you to heal yourself, which is something you're quite capable of doing...

...is equivalent to telling the cleric to remove the traps, which is something he's NOT capable of doing.

...

I question your intelligence.

Depends on which viewpoint you take.

The cleric refusing to heal, which would help the rogue and is something he's more than capable of doing...

IS equivalent to a rogue refusing to disarm traps, which would help the cleric and which is something he's quite capable of doing.

Logic, my friend. Logic.