Why a Cleric?

[Emili]

I wish you good luck trying to explain this, I personally gave up.

Oh, am not explaining anything to him... he's being silly, emotional over nothing.

[Anthem]

A tweaked max empowered Potency critting BB is nice ... on rare occasions breaching 500 on a mob... one thing should note also - some mob evade it too... Kiting on a cleric works well but is not all the best of DPS. This is caster style as a FW but slightly less potent at times... Melee DPS varies by class/build.

But we don't cast them on one mob. We run blades to take down the four or eight or eighteen mobs at once that melees can't handle. It's how we prevent total party wipes when healing won't cut it.

[Kyrn]

A tweaked max empowered Potency critting BB is nice ... on rare occasions breaching 500 on a mob... one thing should note also - some mob evade it too... Kiting on a cleric works well but is not all the best of DPS. This is caster style as a FW but slightly less potent at times... Melee DPS varies by class/build.

Slightly less at time, much more at times.

1) I believe Kheldon was the first one to use the 500 damage blade barrier argument. Even if we assume non-crit...
2) Blade Barrier is not affected by any damage resistances that I know of, making it reliable on almost any melee-type mobs.
3) A fully max/emp/pot bladebarrier not counting crits deals 225 - 337.5 (average 281.25) which is still a respectable figure.
4) But the most important thing is that it's AoE and it involves kiting (aka not staying in melee range to get hit). Against single targets, melee is probably a better solution. Against multiple targets, barring evasion, teleport, ranged, bladebarrier is probably better. The melee can take on those targets instead.

[PopeJual]

Completely missed our point you did.....

No one ever said the Main tank on horoth needs to be completely self sufficient. I dont understand why people need to go to the extreme to try to disprove things...

"Of course it totally acceptable for a group of Level 4's running Waterworks to wait around to 38 Minutes with a LFM up that says "NEED UBER HEALER", what do you expect? a 900HP Barbarian tanking the Demon Queen on Epic to drink Pots?"

There's a very big area in between where a Cleric/FvS makes life so much easier that it's worth waiting 10 minutes for one. Let's say you're going to do Prey on the Hunter. Do you want the melee to step out of the fight for long enough to heal themselves? Even if it's a group of all Paladins and Rangers who brought a stack of Cure Moderate and Cure Serious wands - do you want them to stop beating on the giants for long enough to heal themselves in the middle of a fight?

I understand that it's completely reasonable to expect folks to top themselves off in between fights when there isn't a healer around. In fact, a pocket cleric works just fine for that, so if you can 5-man the quest, then you can bring a pocket cleric and get your healing for just about free.

There are a whole lot of quests in the game where you have some big fights that are going to take more than your total HP if you don't get some mid-fight healing.

Healers should be doing more than just healing in a quest and Rogues/Bards/Arcane casters should be helping out on the WF healing when possible, but quests go a WHOLE LOT more smoothly and a whole lot faster when there's a healer in the party. If you're going to spend 10 minutes quaffing and a gajillion gold on cure pots to keep yourself afloat in a quest, why not spend the 10 mintues waiting for a healer?

Should you be able to take care of yourself in most circumstances? Absolutely! Should you be taking care of yourself in most circumstances? NO. You should be taking care of EACH OTHER. That's why you brought a party into the quest in the first place. So you could support each other.

[jarlaxle_dourden]

Ever notice how those "self sufficient" groups attract three members top at most and dissolve almost immediately unless they are doing low level favor quests or there is a healer amongst them that totally nullifies the headline when they start nursing the egotists back to health?

If you are self sufficient you don't need a party. Stay in Korthos.

I have a couple clerics and a FS...and I am not stupid. If you don't heal or buff others you don't win. If you think you can without doing so...do it away from me. I don't want to help you level, your ego can stay where it is.

Join Date ... Feb 2010 ... give it some time mate

[Failedlegend]

I somehow believe some of you had forgotten what we were like five plus years ago scraping by in threnals or XC for our first times on our first characters with no haggle and but 3-10k in our pocketbooks? Well you know what? There are people out there in DDO very much like that today... and they do not become self-sufficient alone - If you think we did you bloody fooling yourself ...we did it together.


Now all the people who jumped at the OP... have you read it?


Ok first off I am well aware that relying 100% on the groups healer will get you killed its why I love me some UMD and/or Arcane WF (or other self-healing classes) but at the same time why do so many Clerics either refuse to heal or refuse to join a group asking for a healer.

Translates - bring some healing, be self-sufficient... but hey why is that Cleric not casting a heal my way occssionally while am hit hard?

I know this is gonna get me truck loads off neg-rep (because apparently disagreeing with people is discouraged here) but why did you make a cleric in the first place if you didnt want to heal...it would be like a wizard who ignores the fact that he has spells and only melees things or a Rogue who refuses to do traps...I know this isnt their ONLY job but it's their unique thing that other classes can't do (or cant do as well).

Translates - Yes cast other spells even melee but your healing is better than other classes and quicker then another class may do, yet you're not watching for for being a little proactive.

I may be wrong but I'm guessing you went cleric for to be a self-healing char...BUT there's many options for this....A ranger, A Paladin, A Rogue w/ UMD, a WF Wizard, A Bard, etc. not to mention multitude of possible Multiclasses.

Translates - He feels you're out there only for you ... your not there for the team effort.

No other class gets to refuse to do what they were designed to do (except some Multiclasses where they have to explain WHAT they do...but thats another story) so what makes Clerics so special...I've never heard a pure/mostly pure rogue not join a group because their looking for a trapmonkey (Never Met a rogue past the harbor without trapskills) or a Barbarian refuse to rage.

Translates - Many rogues can disable traps and while not all is reasonable to ask... and never heard a melee not swing a weapon?

Note: I know other classes can heal to too...but ya know I've never had a Bard complain about healing

Translates - He's come across Bards and other classes who slip into occasional support and toss a heal yet some clerics complain to do such?

Thank you...finally some who actually read my post (and translated it to normal human speech :P). +1 to you...also the rest of your post was also quite true

@ Impaqt: I am ashamed for you sir...your advice/posts are usually so good and have gotten alot of +rep from me...Maybe your just used to defending your playstyle... maybe try not to assume things...I dunno

[Lorien_the_First_One]

The healer can't waste mana when he's HEALING since it is his role lol. He will be wasting mana only when the group is taking unecessary hits.

Want to make a healer who's still worth to bring without healing with him? Make him outDPS the DPS. But as long as the DPS will outDPS him, he'll be better at making sure these DPS stay alive.

There is no "healer" class. If by that you mean FvS and Cleric, their "roll" isn't to heal. Their roll is to be effective casters and/or melee. Some of that casting includes healing. And my FvS often outkilled the melee while levelling.

[Lorien_the_First_One]

What I've seen though, is mages casting wail of the banshee and have better results than melee DPS. However, by doing so we're not wasting SP on DPS [mage, job is to deconstruct stuff ]

No, a mage's job is to heal the WF. Anything else is failing to do their roll. Isn't that your logic for clerics?

If it is ok for a mage to wail, why not for a cleric to use Implosion.

Really, you need to learn this game.

[Lorien_the_First_One]

Better to be full of overconfidence... Than full of emptyness

Btw, I've always wondered how people like you do in life... I can pretty much think of the picture... No gf, no real studies, low income, is life good for you? Wonder how much you could make... 30 000 per year? Lol, this is what your definition of "intelligence" brings you?

So now you've dropped to personal insults?

Married, 1 kid, Masters degree, multiple professional degrees, I've taught at University, and I make $150K/year.

I guess your guess on those that disagree with you are about 100% off base.

Oh, and /reported for the multiple forum violations in your last couple posts.

[Lorien_the_First_One]

Here we go with more Jumping to extreme idiotic conclusions......

Yes, a Barb should be Raging in EVERY end game quest that requires significant DPS. ANd SOMEONE should be assigned to take care of those rages.. Buf If I'm in a Inspired Quarter quest with some Dex ROgue that "Needs to madstone", he might find himself on the short end of Remove CUrse line.

Agreed. Plus of course the cleric/fvs isn't the only one that can use a remove curse wand. This task is often assigned to someone else.

[Impaqt]

@ Impaqt: I am ashamed for you sir...your advice/posts are usually so good and have gotten alot of +rep from me...Maybe your just used to defending your playstyle... maybe try not to assume things...I dunno

Your ashamed of ME? lol, who do you think you are? your're the one that decided they needed to make a general post about clerics rather than post about a specific issue. I happen to be one of those clerics, and I heal.....

I dont need to defend my playstyle. Nobody does.

I wouldnt have to assume things if you were more clear with your presentation. I'm still not understanding why you have decided to lump all clerics into this imaginary group of evilness. No one is forcing you to play with poor players. Many clerics are quite good at healing. Many are quite good at doing multiple tasks. and some are just plain aweful.

Complain about the things you dont like.

Complain about poor players.

DONT complain about "Clerics" in General.

[MeliCat]

Your ashamed of ME? lol, who do you think you are? your're the one that decided they needed to make a general post about clerics rather than post about a specific issue. I happen to be one of those clerics, and I heal.....

I dont need to defend my playstyle. Nobody does.

I wouldnt have to assume things if you were more clear with your presentation. I'm still not understanding why you have decided to lump all clerics into this imaginary group of evilness. No one is forcing you to play with poor players. Many clerics are quite good at healing. Many are quite good at doing multiple tasks. and some are just plain aweful.

Complain about the things you dont like.

Complain about poor players.

DONT complain about "Clerics" in General.

Sheeesh. Settle petal.




When I am on my cleric as a good party member I will buff, heal (not necessarily to max as I hope they do their own top ups between fights), remove 'hats', rebuff, break enchantment to remove destructive things, debuff enemies so that my party members can smack them harder, heal, top up party members caster/pally/bard/whatever sp with my DVs, do some basic CC so that my party members can smack harder, heal, rebuff, handle levers that my party members keep getting aggro interrupted on, heal, rebuff, kite if needed to remove trash from my party members, stand still and block if needed so that my party members can do smackdowns, heal, rebuff, kill the enemy cleric/caster as fast as possible, heal.

Oh... and at the moment I only have a Nannybot. Love my nannybot.

[Failedlegend]

Your ashamed of ME? lol, who do you think you are? your're the one that decided they needed to make a general post about clerics rather than post about a specific issue. I happen to be one of those clerics, and I heal.....

I dont need to defend my playstyle. Nobody does.

I wouldnt have to assume things if you were more clear with your presentation. I'm still not understanding why you have decided to lump all clerics into this imaginary group of evilness. No one is forcing you to play with poor players. Many clerics are quite good at healing. Many are quite good at doing multiple tasks. and some are just plain aweful.

Complain about the things you dont like.

Complain about poor players.

DONT complain about "Clerics" in General.

Wow you really are ignoring EVERYTHING I say except what you think I'm saying.

Never ONCE did I say ALL clerics...I used words like "some" or "many" on purpose and tried other ways to walk on eggshells for sensitive people because I knew I'd get ripped into for daring to suggest somebody might be wrong.

Emili even simplified what I said for people and you STILL claim I said ALL or IN GENERAL

Also just to clarify I'm NOT claiming to be anyone special but I do usually trust that your advice is right so I didn't expect this from you.



Thank you again to Emili and the other people that have been discussing the topic maturely and by actually reading what people say and responding in kind

[Anthem]

Never ONCE did I say ALL clerics...I used words like "some" or "many" on purpose and tried other ways to walk on eggshells for sensitive people because I knew I'd get ripped into for daring to suggest somebody might be wrong.

Anyways if you can name me another class that refuses to do their unique thing go ahead...find me a Barb that refuses to rage or a Bard that refuses to sing. Really if people did this you wouldn't group with them so why are clerics so special.

See. You most clearly lumped us all together, and picked on the class rather than the player.

Your backpedaling hasn't gone un-noticed though, and we appreciate that. However, I'm sure you can see why you still owe Impaqt specifically, and clerics in general, an apology rather than a denial.

[Failedlegend]

Originally Posted by Failedlegend
Anyways if you can name me another class that refuses to do their unique thing go ahead...find me a Barb that refuses to rage or a Bard that refuses to sing. Really if people did this you wouldn't group with them so why are clerics so special.

See. You most clearly lumped us all together, and picked on the class rather than the player.

Wow I can't believe I missed the fact that I said every single cleric EVER refuses to heal...oh wait that's because I didn't ; Actually I specifically said I'm referring to the ones who ignore the fact that they even have healing spells or ONLY use them for themselves...I really hope that's NOT all clerics.

Once again I refer you to Emili's Post..it sums up my words well (The second quote)

http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p...&postcount=111

Oh and I owe an apology? Once again, apparently there's no room for opinions or disagreeing here..so yes I'm sorry...I'm sorry that you can't see reason and can't be civil about things just because someone disagree with you.

[Lorien_the_First_One]

Wow I can't believe I missed the fact that I said every single cleric EVER refuses to heal...oh wait that's because I didn't ; Actually I specifically said I'm referring to the ones who ignore the fact that they even have healing spells or ONLY use them for themselves...I really hope that's NOT all clerics.

Once again I refer you to Emili's Post..it sums up my words well (The second quote)

http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p...&postcount=111

Oh and I owe an apology...like I said apparently there's no room for opinions or disagreeing here..so yes I'm sorry...I'm sorry that you can't see reason and can't be civil about things just because someone disagree with you.

You picked a good name for yourself.

[Anthem]

Anyways if you can name me another class that refuses to do their unique thing go ahead...find me a Barb that refuses to rage or a Bard that refuses to sing. Really if people did this you wouldn't group with them so why are clerics so special.

Anyways if you can name me another class that refuses to do their unique thing go ahead...find me a Barb that refuses to rage or a Bard that refuses to sing. Really if people did this you wouldn't group with them so why are clerics so special.

Wow I can't believe I missed the fact that I said every single cleric EVER refuses to heal...oh wait that's because I didn't [...]

No you just made gross generalizations. I know there's a difference, but do you know that difference is vanishingly small?

Again we appreciate your backpedaling, this time removing the flaming red emphasis of your original post. That's some solid revisionist re-packaging of yourself.

We totally get it, and if you don't like clerics played to their full potential, nobody's forcing you to group with them. There are plenty of one-trick nannybots in the game who will be more than happy to do nothing but babysit your health bar for you.

[Chai]

Veteran group time completion: 26mins
Newbie group time completion: 22mins

Total cost with veterans: 24000g
Total cost with newbies: 6000g

I dont believe your example to be 100% self sufficient vets completing in more time than new players would, and the key indicator is if it was, no one would have to spam "use your wands" etc. regarding healing. That group was at least half noobs. What ou outlined is more along the lines of how not being self sufficient when playing with vets who are will hold the entire group up.

Many vets will spend more money and resources to be self sufficient to get get the job done faster. While I dont think they should necessarily force that playstyle on new players, it helps new players to learn both, because there are times where they will need this even with a dedicated healer in the group.

This translates all the way up to running epics quests, sans dedicated healer.

I myself will spend more money to be at least somewhat self sufficient if the other choice means waiting 90 minutes for a healbot to get into the group. Even if this isnt your the "preferred" method of play, why would someone not learn to be self sufficient, when being so opens so many more doors?

[cpito]

Why do so many clerics refuse to heal? Because so many players make it an overly difficult job. Because too many party wipes have been blamed on a cleric's inability to follow/heal 5 different characters going 3 different directions. Because there's NOTHING a cleric can do about a toon with 120 hp getting critted for 200+ damage. I could go on and on...

Why did I make a cleric if I don't want to heal? Because very often "Sit, Ubu, sit... good dog" (ie: the command spells) is cheaper on my mana pool that 7 or 8 cure spells and as an added side bonus, it lowers melee's repair bills. Because bringing a comet down on mobs is FUN! Because I love my Voldemortesque skull of death. Because my purple lightening is way cool! Because bb+fw=stirfry! Because there's no save on searing light...

I have two clerics... a straight healbot and a combat caster and I can say without a doubt that most quests are easier to get through, with fewer resources used, with my combat caster than with my straight healbot. My healbot does just that... she heals and she is rather one dimensional. My combat caster, on the other hand, specializes in keeping the party from taking damage that needs to be healed and when all else fails and party members scatter to the four winds and get themselves in over thier heads, she can keep herself alive, kill mobs and still be available to raise the dead.

[Anthem]

Wait wait, all this time we've been discussing this, and the OP has three 4th level characters, and one level 10. He's played less than 3 levels of cleric, and gave it more Dexterity than Wisdom. Not one of his toons has over 100 HP, and can all be brought from zero to full health with three lousy potions.

And he has an opinion he'd like to share on healing.

Impressive.