Why a Cleric?

[Zachski]

I find it funny that many people say "oh a group totally self-sufficient is sooo better than a well organized group".

I find it funny that you're the only person that's said that, considering that a well-organized group would be self-sufficient.

[Kyrn]

So that's 2 out of 11 classes with no self healing, one of which can get it easily if the right race is played.

2 and a half. Not all monks are light path.

[Khelden]

I find it funny that you're the only person that's said that, considering that a well-organized group would be self-sufficient.

Two very different things.
A group can be composed of self-sufficient players to reach self-sufficience. But it can also be composed of specialized players to reach the GROUP self-sufficience.

[Zachski]

Two very different things.
A group can be composed of self-sufficient players to reach self-sufficience. But it can also be composed of specialized players to reach the GROUP self-sufficience.

Or by being self sufficient, they can make the group sufficient. Everyone's job in the party becomes easier. The healer doesn't have to waste mana or wand charges when the tank chugs status-cleansing potions or tops himself off with healing potions.

Sorry, Khelden, this isn't WoW. Please stop trying to make it WoW.

[Khelden]

Or by being self sufficient, they can make the group sufficient. Everyone's job in the party becomes easier. The healer doesn't have to waste mana or wand charges when the tank chugs status-cleansing potions or tops himself off with healing potions.

Sorry, Khelden, this isn't WoW. Please stop trying to make it WoW.

The healer can't waste mana when he's HEALING since it is his role lol. He will be wasting mana only when the group is taking unecessary hits.

Want to make a healer who's still worth to bring without healing with him? Make him outDPS the DPS. But as long as the DPS will outDPS him, he'll be better at making sure these DPS stay alive.

[Kyrn]

Actually, with bladebarriers, Clerics will often outdamage the DPS (at least until all the DPS are geared/enhanced out at end-game levels)

Secondly, it's not always about DPS: The cleric which commands everything ensures better survivability than a frenzied bezerker.

[Zachski]

The healer can't waste mana when he's HEALING since it is his role lol. He will be wasting mana only when the group is taking unecessary hits.

Want to make a healer who's still worth to bring without healing with him? Make him outDPS the DPS. But as long as the DPS will outDPS him, he'll be better at making sure these DPS stay alive.

Which, according to you, ONLY consists of healing.

I'd bring up Blade Barrier, but it's already been brought up.

Listen, Guy-Who-Thinks-Bard-Gets-Disable-Device, you're been consistently proven wrong, yet your only method of defense is "Well I haven't seen it."

Here's a tip: Just because you're level 19 or 20 doesn't mean you know absolutely everything about the game. You just have one character up there. Most of the people you're talking to have more than that. Not myself included, but I generally listen to those who know what they are doing.

[Anthem]

Anyways if you can name me another class that refuses to do their unique thing go ahead...find me a Barb that refuses to rage or a Bard that refuses to sing. Really if people did this you wouldn't group with them so why are clerics so special

A. Now you're just trolling. You've moved your argument and now the whole class of clerics refuse to heal? I can confirm I've seen many players who would not or could not fill their "role". But a whole class? No. And neither have you.

B. Healing is not unique.

C. We clerics aren't so special. Who told you we were?

[Khelden]

Actually, with bladebarriers, Clerics will often outdamage the DPS (at least until all the DPS are geared/enhanced out at end-game levels)

Secondly, it's not always about DPS: The cleric which commands everything ensures better survivability than a frenzied bezerker.

There are many things to consider: Bladebarrier outDPS .. Very situational. More often than not, it is a misconception due to high tick damage. However, things must be considered: time required to kill things with BB + Spell Points required to cast the spell. The cleric can run out of SP. Some very good clerics I know do cast BB from times to time to help with the DPS. But, once again, it is to HELP the DPS. Not to DPS, they stick with their primary role: healing. When they cast BB, I know that they already planned out that their current SP vs the content left is enough (they never do in 1st run though)

Secondly, you are quite right. But I personally consider this survivability, which is pretty much the cleric job. If the cleric knows that the mobs can be commanded and that it would make him use less SP than Healing, well this cleric is a good one and I already like him!

[Zachski]

There are many things to consider: Bladebarrier outDPS .. Very situational. More often than not, it is a misconception due to high tick damage. However, things must be considered: time required to kill things with BB + Spell Points required to cast the spell. The cleric can run out of SP. Some very good clerics I know do cast BB from times to time to help with the DPS. But, once again, it is to HELP the DPS. Not to DPS, they stick with their primary role: healing. When they cast BB, I know that they already planned out that their current SP vs the content left is enough (they never do in 1st run though)

Secondly, you are quite right. But I personally consider this survivability, which is pretty much the cleric job. If the cleric knows that the mobs can be commanded and that it would make him use less SP than Healing, well this cleric is a good one and I already like him!

Too bad you're already on almost every GOOD Cleric's blacklist :P

[Khelden]

Too bad you're already on almost every GOOD Cleric's blacklist :P

Lol, if they do think like you, they are probably bad... And would get kicked quite fast... I really hate how we can't kick people inside the quests... Would be really handy to replace baddies with hirelings

[Kyrn]

There are many things to consider: Bladebarrier outDPS .. Very situational. More often than not, it is a misconception due to high tick damage. However, things must be considered: time required to kill things with BB + Spell Points required to cast the spell. The cleric can run out of SP. Some very good clerics I know do cast BB from times to time to help with the DPS. But, once again, it is to HELP the DPS. Not to DPS, they stick with their primary role: healing. When they cast BB, I know that they already planned out that their current SP vs the content left is enough (they never do in 1st run though)

Actually, if against melee enemies, bladebarriers are usually a better option, both because less damage is taken overall, and you can attack more than one at a time. It's only with ranged/stationary/teleporting mobs, or those which needs to be neutralized ASAP for whatever reason (like beholders), or timing-critical mobs, or single-mob situations where focused DPS work better. (excluding raid/elite/epic situations where HP bloat causes efficiency to be a core requirement)

To put simply: if the cleric uses more SP to heal than to cast BB, BB is obviously a better choice.

[taurean430]

Well first off you should be getting curse,poison and blindness (and other ailments) wands not pots far less detrimental to the wallet

Second we need to buy those pots too...usually more since we don't have spells to fix it. Stop acting like Clerics,etc. are the only class that needs to buy things.

Oh and here's a quick GUESS as to who's repair bills are the highest...try playing a Barb and see how much spare change you have

1 Barbarian
2 Fighter
3 Paladin
4 Monk
5 Ranger
6 Rogue
7 Bard
8 Cleric
9 Wizard & Sorc

The example was theoretical... If you prefer, I can lay out an exact figure for you, which will far exceed anything you've EVER spent on repairs on a barb. How do I know this... I have one on another account.

[Khelden]

Actually, if against melee enemies, bladebarriers are usually a better option, both because less damage is taken overall, and you can attack more than one at a time. It's only with ranged/stationary/teleporting mobs, or those which needs to be neutralized ASAP for whatever reason (like beholders), or timing-critical mobs, or single-mob situations where focused DPS work better. (excluding raid/elite/epic situations where HP bloat causes efficiency to be a core requirement)

To put simply: if the cleric uses more SP to heal than to cast BB, BB is obviously a better choice.

This has not happened to me yet. Pretty much each time, the melee DPS would get mobs down faster than BB. As I said previously, a big misconception of BB is his big tick damage. Those are ticks which must fire, while melee always swing their weapon.

If a BB tick for 500 but in the meantime a melee do 600-700, the DPS is better on the melee side, so the cleric should simply assist the DPS. (Doesn't mean he can't cast BB, BB is often a great help, but he should consider the situation before doing so. A cleric out of SP due to BB spam will never get reinvited by me again)

What I've seen though, is mages casting wail of the banshee and have better results than melee DPS. However, by doing so we're not wasting SP on DPS [mage, job is to deconstruct stuff ]

[Zachski]

Lol, if they do think like you, they are probably bad... And would get kicked quite fast... I really hate how we can't kick people inside the quests... Would be really handy to replace baddies with hirelings

Ahahaha, I really hate you.

No, seriously. You haven't even been on the forums that long, yet you're touting yourself as the "Elite DDO player"

Here's a tip. You're not. You're not even that intelligent. Hell, you don't even know that much about the game itself, yet you think you somehow have the right to come in here and start telling Clerics and FVS to get back and heal, and you are labouring under the delusion that battle clerics are somehow inferior.

Here are your personal failings just today.

1. You think that a telling a Rogue to heal himself with a wand (UMD is a class skill) is equivalent to telling a Cleric to handle traps (which isn't even a cross-class skill, it needs to be unlocked by getting a level in rogue)

2. You think that bards get Disable Device, which quite frankly, astounds me. I actually thought you were more intelligent then that.

3. You think that self-sufficiency and team play are somehow polar opposites.

Mistakes that not even a novice like me could make. I'll admit, I don't know that much about the game. But it's time for you to admit that you don't either. You got to level 20 on ONE CLASS and somehow you think you're king of the game. You're just further proof that there's noobs in high-level play.

There's a reason your reputation is in the negatives, and it isn't because your opinion is unpopular. It's because it's flat-out wrong. And yes, opinions can be wrong.

So please, learn some humility or GTFO. You've been consistently proven wrong and yet you still perpetuate your garbage. I actually had hope for you in one thread, but you disappointed me in this thread.

By the way.

This has not happened to me yet.

Predictable argument. So it hasn't happened to you, so therefore, it must not exist.

Sorry, that's just lame.

[k0ukla]

I consider myself to be a pretty darn nice cleric most of the time and heal anyone when possible although lag sometimes gets in the way of it but a couple of times ive found that ppl arent healing themselves between battles and it is really irritating me ofcourse it's when i join pugs that im not sure of to join in the first place but despite my better judgement i do it anyway so i do understand it is my fault..

and on a side note can ppl stop callin me healer.... "wait for the healer" or "healer heal me" i dont say "warforged fight for me" or "rogue disable trap" or "sorc fw" :| call me by my toon name is it so hard?

anyway moral to that is: now i will rarely join a group "looking for a healer"

[Khelden]

Wall of text...

Lol, you make me laugh. 1st and 3rd mistake are not mistakes at all. 2nd one, yeah I never played bard whoops, shame on me.

You talk alot about intelligence, I can easily say you don't even know what intelligence is. If you lack the logical skills & knowledge to make your own idea, it's pretty much your own fault and should reconsider who's lacking intelligence. Go get some economy class to learn about optimisation. Oh, some maths class would help you too.

[Kyrn]

This has not happened to me yet. Pretty much each time, the melee DPS would get mobs down faster than BB. As I said previously, a big misconception of BB is his big tick damage. Those are ticks which must fire, while melee always swing their weapon.

If a BB tick for 500 but in the meantime a melee do 600-700, the DPS is better on the melee side, so the cleric should simply assist the DPS. (Doesn't mean he can't cast BB, BB is often a great help, but he should consider the situation before doing so. A cleric out of SP due to BB spam will never get reinvited by me again)

What I've seen though, is mages casting wail of the banshee and have better results than melee DPS. However, by doing so we're not wasting SP on DPS [mage, job is to deconstruct stuff ]

And speaking of misconception...
1) Bladebarriers don't tick like firewalls. They do damage whenever mobs move either in or out of them. Depending on the speed of mobs, this can either be fast or slow.
2) Bladebarriers need the mobs to be moving. Unfortunately, this also means that melee should NOT aggro the mobs unless they want to help to kite. If you grab aggro and just stand there letting the mobs wail on you, yes, the bladebarrier is mostly useless. And you are a drain on efficiency.

Also, I've yet to see any melee with 600-700 DPS, and especially not in AoE style.

[Kyrn]

This is a tick.



So you admit BB is a tick-based spell [not all ticks are similar], which require the DPS to keep moving around. As I said, 600-700 is NOT DPS, but more likely the time required to activate the BB tick (which can be not effective at all sometimes). I've done the grab aggro, run in-out game for testing purpose in some quest. First, it was not very efficient. Sometimes I would run out to get the monster out, then back in to make him get back and he would get no damages. It happened a couple of times, and we did not find why exactly yet, but it was enough for us to continue with the normal DPS way. Sure, we use BB sometimes, but we don't rely on it for our DPS at all. It is more likely... Hit the monsters, BB is up, bring the monster in slowly, out, in, out but we stay on the monster and keep DPSing him, instead of simply running around without hitting him.

1) Fine, that's your definition of tick, which is not the usual definition, given that firewall has both duration tick damage, and the damage when mobs move through them.
2) If you can't get a melee mob to move in and out of a bladebarrier effectively, don't penalize the good clerics who know how to. It's more than just running in and out yourself, it's also that the mob itself must be in and out. (which is why people throw bladebarriers near (but not overlapping each other) to get them to move in/out faster, since they'll be moving in one direction).

EDIT: Just making sure, you are NOT overlapping the BBs right?

[Khelden]

1) Fine, that's your definition of tick, which is not the usual definition, given that firewall has both duration tick damage, and the damage when mobs move through them.
2) If you can't get a melee mob to move in and out of a bladebarrier effectively, don't penalize the good clerics who know how to. It's more than just running in and out yourself, it's also that the mob itself must be in and out. (which is why people throw bladebarriers near (but not overlapping each other) to get them to move in/out faster, since they'll be moving in one direction).

I specifically said we were making sure the mob was moving inside and outside... We're not dumb lol. But like I said, it was not working properly each time... Might be latency or idk, we'll prolly do some testing later.