Why a Cleric?

[Chai]

...Except that's not what they are saying at all... in fact, the three posts before yours just addressed this very point -_-

Perhaps, they too make up a portion of the 98%

[Ystradmynach]

Err, yeah, Clerics and FVS have to do a lot of wand whipping, too, so why do they have to spend money on it that no other class should?

Also, Sorcs and Wizards get wand and scroll enhancements, too...

Spell points are free, so in theory you shouldn't have to do much wand whipping. If you do run out of spell points, nobody should be obligating you to heal anymore than anyone else. Personally, I do take note of where a divine casters blue bar is and adjust my strategy to compensate.

But a couple of things to keep in mind is that the other major cost in a quest besides healing is repairs, which pile up both for engaging in melee and for dying. The second is that as mentioned above, a cleric/favored soul (or bard or arcane caster with enough ranks in UMD, thanks for the correction) with the right enhancements will be better at wand whipping than anyone else. If a divine caster needs resources and I have healing wands on me, I will give them so for free knowing they will make better use of them than I would. All they have to do is ask, and I've given away healing resources unprompted before as well.

[Calebro]

Spell points are free, so in theory you shouldn't have to do much wand whipping. If you do run out of spell points, nobody should be obligating you to heal anymore than anyone else. Personally, I do take note of where a divine casters blue bar is and adjust my strategy to compensate.

That's a great strategy.
Take it a step further though, and always pretend that their bar is empty.
You'll be first on their list at all times if you play with this philosophy, I guarantee it.

[Phidius]

If there's so much focus on being self-sufficient, why bother playing in a party?

There is a guild on Sarlona who is well known for putting up an LFM for Shroud that says something along the lines of "buff yourself, fast run"... I get into their runs every chance I get because

1. they will complete,
2. they will complete fast, and
3. they will have fun doing it.

Being self-sufficient means being able to contribute to a party more than just typing into party chat "fire resist pls", "HJEAL pls", and "raise dead pls"

[Anneliese]

On my cleric/fvs I will join groups as a healer and invest resources when its a:

- guild/friend run
- raid/preraid
- (epic)
- story arc quest that I need to complete for various reasons (like flagging)

Else I will usually solo or find a group that does not need a healer per se but welcomes one more party member for a more efficient/faster completion.

[Impaqt]

Spell points are free, so in theory you shouldn't have to do much wand whipping. If you do run out of spell points, nobody should be obligating you to heal anymore than anyone else. Personally, I do take note of where a divine casters blue bar is and adjust my strategy to compensate.

So you play Recklessly when the cleric has Mana, and play smarter when they run out? oh boy, thanks...

But a couple of things to keep in mind is that the other major cost in a quest besides healing is repairs, which pile up both for engaging in melee and for dying. The second is that as mentioned above, a cleric/favored soul (or bard or arcane caster with enough ranks in UMD, thanks for the correction) with the right enhancements will be better at wand whipping than anyone else. If a divine caster needs resources and I have healing wands on me, I will give them so for free knowing they will make better use of them than I would. All they have to do is ask, and I've given away healing resources unprompted before as well.

repair bills hardly "Pile up" for general hack and slash. and if you die because you are attempting to do something that is above and beyond what you are capable of, that repair bill is on YOU and YOU alone. Clerics have repair bills too, whether it be from deaths or from meleeing. Its essentially the same expenses.

[Ystradmynach]

So you play Recklessly when the cleric has Mana, and play smarter when they run out? oh boy, thanks...

I mean that if the cleric has no mana, then I often have to divide my time between killing things and wand whipping and/or running away just to survive, which usually ends up causing my teammates to be slaughtered instead, such as the divine caster who ran out of mana.

repair bills hardly "Pile up" for general hack and slash. and if you die because you are attempting to do something that is above and beyond what you are capable of, that repair bill is on YOU and YOU alone. Clerics have repair bills too, whether it be from deaths or from meleeing. Its essentially the same expenses.

Divine casters do have other options other than engaging in melee, even melee oriented clerics will probably spend some time doing other stuff, and thus I very much doubt that their repair bill is quite as high as the raging barbarian, even if you assume everyone dies at an equal rate. My point is that everyone has costs associated with doing quests, whether it is lock picks, repair bills, pots, wands or scrolls.

But yeah, you probably shouldn't bite off more than you can chew. Of course the problem there is often the only way people learn what they can handle is through experience, which usually requires some dying along the way.

I mean, I suppose you can choose to only engage in content below your level so nothing poses mortal danger to your character, but it wouldn't be a very interesting game to play in that case.

[GhoulsTouch]

Because a solid group of players will never "Need" a cleric to complete anything.

Advertising "Need Healer" is kinda the same thing as putting "can someone please come do the quest for me while I sit back and pike"

Its funny.. You list a whole bunch of characters than can be "Self sufficient" but then in the same breath you want to know why people dont like playing healbots....

I play Clerics and FvS's mostly because I enjoy the flexibility of doing whatever needs to be done to get the quest completed.

I dont play them because I like to sit around starting at red bars.

Ever notice how those "self sufficient" groups attract three members top at most and dissolve almost immediately unless they are doing low level favor quests or there is a healer amongst them that totally nullifies the headline when they start nursing the egotists back to health?

If you are self sufficient you don't need a party. Stay in Korthos.

I have a couple clerics and a FS...and I am not stupid. If you don't heal or buff others you don't win. If you think you can without doing so...do it away from me. I don't want to help you level, your ego can stay where it is.

[Calebro]

Ever notice how those "self sufficient" groups attract three members top at most and dissolve almost immediately unless they are doing low level favor quests or there is a healer amongst them that totally nullifies the headline when they start nursing the egotists back to health?

If you are self sufficient you don't need a party. Stay in Korthos.

That may be the most idiotic post in this thread so far. And that's saying something, because there have been some doozies in this thread.

Perhaps I should elaborate.
Those groups don't dissolve. They complete the quest and move on.
Having someone with the capacity to heal in a party with "BYOH, or Be Self-Sufficient" doesn't give the people who joined a free ticket to NOT follow the LFM's instructions. If there's a healer, you SHOULD have some help, but it's not guaranteed by any means. The specifications of the LFM supersede the party make-up.

Say in Korthos? The people that put up LFMs like that can solo most content, not just Korthos.

[GhoulsTouch]

That may be the most idiotic post in this thread so far. And that's saying something, because there have been some doozies in this thread.

Pfft...whatever man, if you are a divine caster and cant heal you are a gimp point blank...stay in Korthos. And if you are that cleric/Fs tons of threads have been made in your honor. You aren't "L33T" because you deny heals..in fact man, the rest of us see you as a poor excuse of a cleric. And you know a FS has all the cure spells because do you really think he would let himself die? Of course not, and the sad thing is he has more sp then the cleric does.

Okay gimp you are telling me you took a divine caster and can't heal at all...see ya *remove* send tell/AnonymousFavouredHole "come back when you know the game."

Most casters have more then enough mana to see a job done, the ones that don't drop a blade barrier on every trash mob that grits it's teeth. There could be five firewalls up cast on accident by a sorcerer and wizard independently and for some reason there are some divine casters that feel like having a three ring blade barrier circus is going to make them look good by casting over them in order to try to top the arcanes in kills instead of healing.

Wrong...dead wrong. Much like the arcanes that try to get the kills and wait for the hp of creatures to drop before casting. People arent looking at the kills, they are observing your actions in quests. If you are looking to get the kills you are casting to make up for lack of skills and point to the board and say..."see I was doing my part".

Come on, you are going to cast a Death spell on a Gnoll that's a doghair away from the grave? No wonder you can't heal, you are in a competition with your own ego.

All clerics should be combat clerics who can heal, if you can't do that...do something else and stop causing party wipes. It's a complicated role but if you give up on it, give up on the whole character too. "I don't heal people...because I can't, I am a bad cleric" Admit it, and things will get better for you.

[Calebro]

Pfft...whatever man, if you are a divine caster and cant heal you are a gimp point blank...stay in Korthos.

I explained above.

[Lorien_the_First_One]

Ever notice how those "self sufficient" groups attract three members top at most and dissolve almost immediately unless they are doing low level favor quests or there is a healer amongst them that totally nullifies the headline when they start nursing the egotists back to health?

If you are self sufficient you don't need a party. Stay in Korthos.

I have a couple clerics and a FS...and I am not stupid. If you don't heal or buff others you don't win. If you think you can without doing so...do it away from me. I don't want to help you level, your ego can stay where it is.

Actually as I've levelled my last three characters, and especially the TRs, I've noticed that self sufficient groups fill the fastest, and are most likely to attract good players. Where new players without a clue join they do leave after one quest, but the seriously solid 3 hour straight with no deaths type parties tend to have started that way. I certainly was quick to join such parties on my TR FvS because I knew I was free to have fun with offensive magic and no one would get whiny and that the players were probably competent players. And of course, once in party I did heal as well.

As for not being able to win withotu a cleric/fvs buffing/healing, that's nonsense. I've seen that from other new players like you who panicked when I just took the first 5 people to join my LFM and they were all melee. "How will we complete <whateverquest> without a caster and healer?" Sometimes such people drop, other times at the end of the quest they just are amazed with the realization that in this game any 6 players who are half competant can complete any quest at level.

[akla_thornfist]

dont call them healers call then divine casters, sure we heal you when the mobs are kicking your ass and we will bring you back from the dead before they start eating your corpse. but we can take you out just as fast cmon destruction, cometfall, blade barrier, implosion who wouldnt want a cleric in there group.

[Failedlegend]

Wow you guys totally missed my point...let me reiterate some things I said that you guys just ignored (also I highlighted things for yeah)

- I am well aware that relying 100% on the groups healer will get you killed

- Why did you make a cleric in the first place if you didn't want to heal...I'm guessing you went cleric for to be a self-healing char....I know this isn't their ONLY job but it's their unique thing that other classes can't do AS WELL

- I may be wrong but I'm guessing you went cleric for to be a self-healing char...BUT there's many options for this....A ranger, A Paladin, A Rogue w/ UMD, a WF Wizard, A Bard, etc. not to mention multitude of possible Multiclasses.' (A point I might add that you actually use in YOUR defense)

- I know other classes can heal to too...but ya know I've never had a Bard complain about healing besides I'd rather the Bard be using his mana for Bard type things like haste or spending his time killing things not worrying about doing the healing that the cleric refuses to do at all.

Now that you've actually read my post instead of assuming I said "durrr me need hjeals svae me cerlic" (which for some reason you always misspell when your imitating other people) I can add a few more points.

Anyways if you can name me another class that refuses to do their unique thing go ahead...find me a Barb that refuses to rage or a Bard that refuses to sing. Really if people did this you wouldn't group with them so why are clerics so special.

My point was NOT that healers she stand there and do nothing except hit the "Heal" key my point was its dumb not to join a group thats looking for a cleric or to outright refuse to heal.

Now the highest Cleric I have is only Lvl 4 so I don't claim to know your so called "plight" but I seem to keep my WF buddies alive just fine with my Wiz/Rogue so whys it so hard for a cleric.

Oh and stop totting the expense of Wands if your running out of mana that quick your either in a really bad group (I will not deny pugs can blow SOMETIMES) or your screwing up....if my wiz runs out of mana its my own **** fault...probably because i was screwing around with useless spells or i left extend on but If I use a little strategy I'll make it to the shrine (or finish the quest) just fine and that's INCLUDING if I'm heal a bunch of WF.

In short while DDO is different than other MMOs (which is why I love it) each Class does have a major strength over the others (Another thing I love about DDO) and a Cleric or FvS just happens to heal a hell of alot better than the others and really every time another class needs to chug a potion instead of relying on the cleric that refuses to heal is less time their doing what their good at.

Edit: Lastly I'd like to say I have grouped with some great Cleric/FvSs that can do it all...healing,meleeing,tanking you name it and not once did they whine about the healing part...sure they weren't topping the kill list but they were holding their own without forsaking healing. Actually alot of the times they complain about healer's they've grouped with on alts

[Aashrym]

That's a great strategy.
Take it a step further though, and always pretend that their bar is empty.
You'll be first on their list at all times if you play with this philosophy, I guarantee it.

I like how you think

[taurean430]

I mean that if the cleric has no mana, then I often have to divide my time between killing things and wand whipping and/or running away just to survive, which usually ends up causing my teammates to be slaughtered instead, such as the divine caster who ran out of mana.





Divine casters do have other options other than engaging in melee, even melee oriented clerics will probably spend some time doing other stuff, and thus I very much doubt that their repair bill is quite as high as the raging barbarian, even if you assume everyone dies at an equal rate. My point is that everyone has costs associated with doing quests, whether it is lock picks, repair bills, pots, wands or scrolls.

But yeah, you probably shouldn't bite off more than you can chew. Of course the problem there is often the only way people learn what they can handle is through experience, which usually requires some dying along the way.

I mean, I suppose you can choose to only engage in content below your level so nothing poses mortal danger to your character, but it wouldn't be a very interesting game to play in that case.

Tell ya what:

The next time you wipe in a quest and pay your repair bill; following that go buy 50 heal scrolls, 10 neutralize poison pots, 10 remove curse pots, 2 remove blindness pots, 10 raise dead scrolls.

Then compare the cost of that to what you just paid for repairs. Then you might actually have something to say about that. There is a reason that healing classes who dig too often into resources are broke constantly. And also a reason that the party actually wiped in the first place.

[Aashrym]

Ever notice how those "self sufficient" groups attract three members top at most and dissolve almost immediately unless they are doing low level favor quests or there is a healer amongst them that totally nullifies the headline when they start nursing the egotists back to health?

If you are self sufficient you don't need a party. Stay in Korthos.

I have a couple clerics and a FS...and I am not stupid. If you don't heal or buff others you don't win. If you think you can without doing so...do it away from me. I don't want to help you level, your ego can stay where it is.

I gotta say, nope, I have not noticed that.

[Failedlegend]

Tell ya what:

The next time you wipe in a quest and pay your repair bill; following that go buy 50 heal scrolls, 10 neutralize poison pots, 10 remove curse pots, 2 remove blindness pots, 10 raise dead scrolls.

Well first off you should be getting curse,poison and blindness (and other ailments) wands not pots far less detrimental to the wallet

Second we need to buy those pots too...usually more since we don't have spells to fix it. Stop acting like Clerics,etc. are the only class that needs to buy things.

Oh and here's a quick GUESS as to who's repair bills are the highest...try playing a Barb and see how much spare change you have

1 Barbarian
2 Fighter
3 Paladin
4 Monk
5 Ranger
6 Rogue
7 Bard
8 Cleric
9 Wizard & Sorc

[Impaqt]

Wow you guys totally missed my point...let me reiterate some things I said that you guys just ignored (also I highlighted things for yeah)

- I am well aware that relying 100% on the groups healer will get you killed

- Why did you make a cleric in the first place if you didn't want to heal...I'm guessing you went cleric for to be a self-healing char....I know this isn't their ONLY job but it's their unique thing that other classes can't do AS WELL

OK, hold on a Second... So you ran into a couple poor examples of clerics and now you are assuming EVERY cleric is like that? I think your the one that needs to stop and think a second. A Cleric who refuses to heal anyone except themselves under any circumstance just plain sucks. Feel free to kick them from your groups, add them to your blacklists, and move on.

- I may be wrong but I'm guessing you went cleric for to be a self-healing char...BUT there's many options for this....A ranger, A Paladin, A Rogue w/ UMD, a WF Wizard, A Bard, etc. not to mention multitude of possible Multiclasses.' (A point I might add that you actually use in YOUR defense)

You are Wrong if youa re applyign this theory to every cleric you meet. I know many clerics are are very happy to even play the "Healbot" role, not to mention dozens that play the traditional Melee/Offensive caster/healer role.

- I know other classes can heal to too...but ya know I've never had a Bard complain about healing besides I'd rather the Bard be using his mana for Bard type things like haste or spending his time killing things not worrying about doing the healing that the cleric refuses to do at all.

Oh, so your ok with a character like a bard being multi-faceted, but clerics should only heal?

Now that you've actually read my post instead of assuming I said "durrr me need hjeals svae me cerlic" (which for some reason you always misspell when your imitating other people) I can add a few more points.

Thats how your OP came accross.. and let me tell ya, your not chaning that impression much.

Anyways if you can name me another class that refuses to do their unique thing go ahead...find me a Barb that refuses to rage or a Bard that refuses to sing. Really if people did this you wouldn't group with them so why are clerics so special.

I've seen barbs CHOOSE not to rage in situations that might require them to use Potions... Same thing....

no one is telling you you NEED to group with bad clerics. DONT DO IT.

My point was NOT that healers she stand there and do nothing except hit the "Heal" key my point was its dumb not to join a group thats looking for a cleric or to outright refuse to heal.

Depends on the quest..... Many quests.. Most even... Simply dont require a cleric to complete. You should not take much damage. You should be able to burn though it quick with little issue. If you "Need" a cleric for those quests, you are advertising that you are poor players. Thats how we read it. and most of the time, its true.

Now the highest Cleric I have is only Lvl 4 so I don't claim to know your so called "plight" but I seem to keep my WF buddies alive just fine with my Wiz/Rogue so whys it so hard for a cleric.

get back to us when you cap out your cleric and can actually speak from experience then.

Oh and stop totting the expense of Wands if your running out of mana that quick your either in a really bad group (I will not deny pugs can blow SOMETIMES) or your screwing up....if my wiz runs out of mana its my own **** fault...probably because i was screwing around with useless spells or i left extend on but If I use a little strategy I'll make it to the shrine (or finish the quest) just fine and that's INCLUDING if I'm heal a bunch of WF.

Generally, a cleric runs out of spell points because hes healing a bad group or hes overhealing. Its got litte to nothing to do with "Other" spells

In short while DDO is different than other MMOs (which is why I love it) each Class does have a major strength over the others (Another thing I love about DDO) and a Cleric or FvS just happens to heal a hell of alot better than the others and really every time another class needs to chug a potion instead of relying on the cleric that refuses to heal is less time their doing what their good at.

Here you go again.. Putting "Classes" into "Roles" they are NOT one and the same. If I Choose to make a Clerics whos "Role" is DPS, thats my perogative inthis game. i CAN do that. and you have the right to Not let me join your groups. I can make a rogue that doesnt do traps.(Yes, they are out there) I can make a Ranger that specialized in ranged Combat... I can make a Wizard that Specilizes in ranged COmabt.... I can make a Paladin that focus's on DPS or Defense.... The Class Icon is only PART of the role the character CAN do... its not the end all be all.. I can even make a "Wizard" that can tank Suulomades if I want....(And I did)

Edit: Lastly I'd like to say I have grouped with some great Cleric/FvSs that can do it all...healing,meleeing,tanking you name it and not once did they whine about the healing part...sure they weren't topping the kill list but they were holding their own without forsaking healing. Actually alot of the times they complain about healer's they've grouped with on alts

So why are you now whining in general about "Clerics". Guess what. Some people Suck. DOnt play with them if ya dont want to.

[Khelden]

I find it funny that many people say "oh a group totally self-sufficient is sooo better than a well organized group". Tell ya what, I've ran with self-sufficient veterans TR and new players. While the veterans kept spamming "use your wands" etc, the new players were quite undergeared but were playing their role almost flawlessly.

Guess what? While the first very easy quests were run faster by veterans who knew the place & had better gear, it did not take long for the group full of new player to catch up and become quite faster. Instead of spamming "use your wand", we were progressing with strategic use of shrines, not losing time standing and spamming heal charges. Indeed, we did have to spam wands sometimes, for exemple, when the cleric was oom [which never lasted anyway, this game seems to place shrines right before a boss quite often...]

Veteran group time completion: 26mins
Newbie group time completion: 22mins

Total cost with veterans: 24000g
Total cost with newbies: 6000g

Teamplay can be done with a full group of self-sufficient players, or by a group full of players specializing at what they do best. Basic economy rule can be applied here to tell which path is the best