Why a Cleric?

[Khelden]

I see you've missed the point yet again. In this MMO, a healing icon does not translate into a healbot. They are two entirely different things. Even in that example you've given you'd find many players that would simply avoid whatever trap it is that you are referring to. That's not the point of the discussion.

Just like a rogue or bard icon doesn't translate into a trap monkey.

Some traps just can't be avoided.

[Zachski]

A cleric could do it, he'd have to take the disable device as cross-skill.

...Uhh, no, no he can't take disable device as a cross skill.

He'd had to have a level of Rogue to do that.

A Rogue doesn't need a level of Cleric to whip out a wand and start healing himself.

I take back what I said about questioning your intelligence. You just answered my question for me.

[Lorien_the_First_One]

A cleric could do it, he'd have to take the disable device as cross-skill. Will it work? Probably not.

He can't use the skill without a level of rogue. You on the other hand as a rogue can take full ranks in UMD.

By the way, most clerics won't really care if you disable traps. Taps in this game rarely matter. Most can be timed and/or offset with resistances.

But welcome to the game and enjoy learning it

Some traps just can't be avoided.

Which ones? Certainly not very many...

[Phidius]

I gotta disagree with this...
Although a solid group will never NEED a cleric, it makes things MUCH easier with less resources. Why would you want to run a quest using more resources just because you don't want to get a cleric?...

Because I hate waiting... I'd rather spend my gaming time actually gaming. If the cost of resources concerns someone, it may be that they've spent more time waiting for a healer than playing.

[Khelden]

...Uhh, no, no he can't take disable device as a cross skill.

He'd had to have a level of Rogue to do that.

A Rogue doesn't need a level of Cleric to whip out a wand and start healing himself.

I take back what I said about questioning your intelligence. You just answered my question for me.

Last time I checked, a single bard/rogue level would unlock the skill. Just like the fighter will have to take rogue levels for his DD. To me, it is extremely simple: refuse to heal, deal with what you can't deal with.

I've done it some times in the past days and did not get any bad comments about this... Well, beside from the clerics who died this way, but it's a good thing they won't come with me in the group anymore

[Anthem]

I personally avoid running with battle clerics, unless we already have a good healing cleric. Something quite fun I started to do recently is to refuse to disable traps [My disable device is high enough for every quest I've ran into, I don't know yet about epic].

So when I group with a cleric who tells me to heal myself instead of doing it, I tell him to remove the traps by himself. Having an active evasion allows me to avoid enough damages to get on the other side without huge harm and then heal myself while the jack have to go through the traps (now that the traps are striking for 200 it's really fun to see ^^), heal himself (if he did survive...), whine then leave, to get replaced by a hireling which often turns out to heal way better.

Evil? Maybe, but it makes things SO much more fun ^^

People need to keep in mind that if we really can heal ourself, we won't bring a healer with us, a DPS would be quite better.

That would be funny, except it's not materially different from running without a rogue, which is pretty much the norm anyway.

Heal up, rez up if needed, and carry on. Pretty standard fare.

[Khelden]

That would be funny, except it's not materially different from running without a rogue, which is pretty much the norm anyway.

Heal up, rez up if needed, and carry on. Pretty standard fare.

Oh it happens easily Ant. I did it yesterday in Monastery of the Scorpion. The cleric was running everywhere, saw a shrine on his map, bam dead. Are they smart? Well, I'll just say this:
He died more than once before realizing the trap should've been removed.

A single level of BARD would unlock the skill? Are you freaking kidding me?

Oh noes, I did a mistake, what a shame. Does it matter? Not really, doesn't change the fact that adressing the clerics the same way they do to others is a very fun thing to do and I strongly recommend doing so. However, I strongly suggest that you take a break from this game boy, having such nerdrages is really bad for your health.

[taurean430]

Just like a rogue or bard icon doesn't translate into a trap monkey.

Some traps just can't be avoided.

A rogue or bard icon doesn't translate into a trap monkey to me. If I've started a party for a quest, I oftentimes ask in the lfm for what is needed. Trapsmith/Arcane/DPS very welcome or some such. As for traps in the game leading up to lvl 20; I've yet to see one that can't be avoided.

But the example I think is an aside issue. I've noticed on my trip back to level 20 this time around on my main, (as well as on my alts), that the expectation of players to behave only as their icon denotes has not diminished. It's actually gotten much worse.

This only appeared to be present in Korthos and the Harbor, and was a non issue following that. Players who thought that way either didn't make it past that area, or picked up that this MMO is unique in that aspect. One of the things I like the most about this game is that your icon doesn't denote all that you can do. And I get just as annoyed as anyone else when someone completely ignores the strengths of their class. But many builds utilize Multiclassing or UMD to expand playability/surviveability and they bring this to any parties they are part of.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Let's look at the rest of the clases then, shall we?

Cleric: can heal
Favored Soul: can heal
Paladin: Lay on Hands, cure spells, and cure wands, easy to get UMD high
Bard: UMD, cure spells, and cure wands
Ranger: cure spells and cure wands
Monk: (light path) Fists of Light, Healing Ki, Wholeness of Body
Rogue: UMD
Wizard: bugged to use cure wands, self heal if WF
Sorcerer: self heal if WF, easy to get UMD high
Barbarian: screwed
Fighter: plenty of feats if halfling to take Dragonmarks, otherwise screwed

So that's 2 out of 11 classes with no self healing, one of which can get it easily if the right race is played.

What exactly do you need a healer for?

Yep!

And the rest of the group can help the Ftr and Brbs out.

Barbarian rage causes problems, and their huge amount of HP makes potions seem trivial. Add in the increased damage they take. Ftrs at least might have an AC option to not need as much healing.

Yep. I'll try to forgive Barbarians when I can. And I also understand the desire they have to rush to the next fight while their rage is still going. But everyone else shouldn't be so needy IMO.

For those who say healing is too expensive, CLW wands are dirt cheap. They just require you to stand still for awhile to use them. Again Barbarians have a valid reason for not wanting to stand still long enough.

[Chai]

Oh it happens easily Ant. I did it yesterday in Monastery of the Scorpion. The cleric was running everywhere, saw a shrine on his map, bam dead. Are they smart? Well, I'll just say this:
He died more than once before realizing the trap should've been removed.

Traps are an obstacle to be overcome for sure, but dealing with traps does not always = a rogue disabling them.

Even in PnP, a fighter that jumps a pit trap to deal with other circumstances gets xp for dealing with the trap. In DDO you may not get xp for this, but dealing with traps in a dungeon does not solely = a rogue taking them down.

The person you are talking about in Monastery could have slapped a resist buff on themselves and got through the trap, while self healing.

It is this simple. In DDO your class icon does not = you playing one specific role in a group, like it does in other games.

[Ystradmynach]

The only two classes aside from clerics and favored souls who can efficiently heal, even on a limited basis without interrupting their primary job in a party or expending large sums of money are bards and paladins. And even they aren't half as good at healing as clerics and favored souls. Rangers can cast weak healing spells with a limited SP pool, but that would mean they likely aren't buffing the rest of the parts with barkskin, elemental resists or freedom of movements and the like. And while most classes can wand whip, it is slow going, expensive, and you can't fight with a wand in your hand. Plus, bards are the only non-divine class that can even take enhancements to improve their wand and scroll use.

Can divine casters do more than heal and buff? Of course they can, they can melee, cc, nuke and so on. But other classes can fulfill those roles just as well if not better than clerics and favored souls. So honestly, if a cleric or favored soul doesn't heal at all, what reason would you have to take them over, say a wizard or a bard or any other dps character?

Of course this doesn't make it right for divine casters to be yelled at for doing something other than healing, in fact they should be encouraged to do more than heal, just like rogues should be encouraged to do more than disable traps. But that doesn't mean that everyone looking for a healer is looking strictly for a nanny healbot who gets barked at for doing anything other than healing. Most requests for healers are looking for someone to make the quests easier because of the composite of a cleric and favored souls abilities, the most important of which is their ability to heal quickly and efficiently while still being able to fulfill other roles in the party.

[Zachski]

The only two classes aside from clerics and favored souls who can efficiently heal, even on a limited basis without interrupting their primary job in a party or expending large sums of money are bards and paladins. And even they aren't half as good at healing as clerics and favored souls. Rangers can cast weak healing spells with a limited SP pool, but that would mean they likely aren't buffing the rest of the parts with barkskin, elemental resists or freedom of movements and the like. And while most classes can wand whip, it is slow going, expensive, and you can't fight with a wand in your hand. Plus, bards are the only non-divine class that can even take enhancements to improve their wand and scroll use.

Err, yeah, Clerics and FVS have to do a lot of wand whipping, too, so why do they have to spend money on it that no other class should?

Also, Sorcs and Wizards get wand and scroll enhancements, too...

[Phidius]

...Plus, bards are the only non-divine class that can even take enhancements to improve their wand and scroll use...

... and wizards with 23 ranks in UMD

[Antheal]

If there's so much focus on being self-sufficient, why bother playing in a party?

[Anthem]

Oh it happens easily Ant. I did it yesterday in Monastery of the Scorpion. The cleric was running everywhere, saw a shrine on his map, bam dead. Are they smart? Well, I'll just say this:
He died more than once before realizing the trap should've been removed.

I didn't say it doesn't happen. I said it's no different than running without a rogue, as most of us regularly do.

[Impaqt]

If there's so much focus on being self-sufficient, why bother playing in a party?

and If you refuse to play within your capabilities and take care of basic necessities, why would I bother playing in your party?

being self sufficient has nothing to do with being anti-social or working as a TEAM to get things done.

[Zachski]

If there's so much focus on being self-sufficient, why bother playing in a party?

When you are self-sufficient, you able to help your teammates.

Not to mention a group of self-sufficient players means the load gets distributed, whereas soloing means you have to deal with all yourself, and on Elite, I doubt very few people are THAT self-sufficient.

When you are not self-sufficient, it means you're relying heavily on one or more teammates, which is a detriment to them. In other words, it's being selfish.

The exception being when you CAN'T be self-sufficient (See: Barbarians, Fighters). Generally, though, you make up for it in other ways. Like killing the boss quicker so the Cleric/FVS/Bard/Paladin/Ranger/Rogue doesn't have to use additional wand charges on you. At least carry some potions to remove status ailments.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

If there's so much focus on being self-sufficient, why bother playing in a party?

More people working together in any way are more powerful than one person by himself. (usually)

I'm not a good soloist. I need people to help me. They do not need to help me with healing, but if that is the way they can help best, great!

And we help each other. We heal those who cannot heal themselves, or who are doing another important job, or have too much agro.
We buff each other when needed, we take agro from each other. There are a thousand things we can do to help each other without needing a constant healer in the group.

I admit that roles work. And they are the key to popular raid tactics.

But roles are not required. Cooperation, in tough quests, is required, or at least desireable.
It may not need to be organised cooperation, but alert players who have the experience to recognise when someone needs help and who know how to best use their own char's abilities to assist in some way.

[Chai]

Well, theres a gray area in DDO that definately does not exist in other games to the degree it exists here with divine casters. However, I am definately seeing alot of extremist absolutism on both sides.

On one side I see people saying dont play a divine if you are not going to heal.

On the other side are people who think you are on your own when in a quest with 5 other people.

The other 98% understand doing what is needed in order to complete the quest when it is inside the capabilities for how you built your toon.

[Zachski]

On the other side are people who think you are on your own when in a quest with 5 other people.

...Except that's not what they are saying at all... in fact, the three posts before yours just addressed this very point -_-