Why a Cleric?

[GBantaR]

By the way, most clerics won't really care if you disable traps. Taps in this game rarely matter. Most can be timed and/or offset with resistances.

You realize that completely validated his point? If the cleric refuses to heal him, and he should do it himself, he is completely justified in refusing to disarm, because the cleric should just handle it himself.

[Shaftronics]

Sigh...

I LOATHE the term "Battle Cleric".

There was this one Shroud run with a straight Cleric 20 on it. The group leader asked her if she was a healer and, knowing she'd have been dumped from the group in a heartbeat, she said "yes."

She then proceeded to die FOUR TIMES IN PART ONE.

Yes, that's right, somehow she managed to die in Part one. Repeatedly.

I love the term "Battle Cleric", because it allows me to play past a stigma that most people are afraid of and prove them wrong. I have had a level 11 Cleric /2 Fighter, shelved because he was on an alternate account with no adventure packs, who has outkilled melee DPS, and kept the entire party alive pretty fine and currently playing a level 9 Warforged FvS (because I can finally pay for things) who continues the "legacy" of me being a battle cleric, except as a Warforged FvS. Most people ironically don't see that as an issue.

As Impaqt has repeated time and again, you have just met a bad PLAYER, that's all. As far as I know, a "melee wizard" or something along the same line could be doing the same thing. Now all Melee-based wizards/sorcs suck now? Not really.

For any "Battle Cleric" or melee-based FvS out there, they simply need to do 2 things; "Heal good, Kill good."

Most of -anything- people complain about, be it shortcomings or whatever, are at the part of the player behind that character. If they decide not to heal, or can't multi-task or fail miserably at melee just because their strength is lower than 18 at high levels, oh well. Nothing much you can do about it.

I could whine about the Barbs who -EXPECT- heals or die all the time. I could whine about Warforged Melee who rush in, expect heals but can't have 2 AP in Healer's Friend, I could whine about the Sorcerer at level 9 who still swings a greatsword, and has absolutely no contribution to the party (self-buffed only) and at the end of the day, so what?

The noobs behind these toons are the ones that have made these choices. I don't see the CLASS being at fault. I'm so very sorry that just because Clerics and FvS are more "Required" or "needed" by parties than other classes, that they have to face a higher standard of such behavior.

[hermespan]

why do so many Clerics either refuse to heal

Dunno, maybe they are an offensive caster, not specced for healing, and need their SP for damage. Did you ask them if they were a healer before you let them in?

or refuse to join a group asking for a healer.

This one's easy. They'll get spammed with "HEEEEALLL ME" in party chat, and probably end up using 4x more gold than they make from the quest, on wands, because the group is mentally challenged. I'd avoid PuGs like this like the plague unless it's some kind of raid, if I didn't play a cleric that only groups with my guild.

Rogue who refuses to do traps...

Maybe they aren't a trap mechanic because their int is low and they need skillpoints for UMD, balance, diplomacy, jump etc. I could see this happening with a min-max DPS build. Another possibility is they are out of tools and embarrassed to ask if someone in the group has any.

A rogues primary function, and what they are Really Good(tm) at, is DPS. Some people build them accordingly and max out DPS. Often they don't care about handling traps. There's so many people playing multiclass builds that can handle traps just as good as a trap smith rogue (everywhere but Cabal), that I wouldn't think twice about it if I did a rogue that was purely dps.

so what makes Clerics so special...

nothing. But like every other class, there's more than one way to play the class. "Healer" is just one way.

The trouble with some people that lead groups is they ask for classes, not roles, in the LFM. "Need healer and trap mechanic" is much better than "Need cleric or fvs, and rogue", because people get an accurate idea of what you are looking for and know what roles you are trying to fill.

Role != Class

This is a very important concept. Understand it, embrace it, or continue to lead horrible PuGs. DDO *is not* WoW.

In WoW, the game and your class decide your role. In D&D you and your build decide your role and what you decide your role is, is neither right nor wrong based solely on the class you play. There are only people that play their role well or badly. A battle cleric that doesn't kill much of anything is playing his role badly. A battle cleric that has a 4:1 kill ratio with the nearest party member, or is getting/holding/tanking all of the aggro so the party doesn't take any damage, is playing his role well.

There are good players and bad players.

This is one of the aspects of PnP D&D that translated utterly perfectly into the video game version. Thank you Turbine!

Just about the only version of D&D rules where this wasn't true is the original D&D box set (sold before and in parallel with AD&D first edition) that only had 3 classes, fighting man, cleric and magic user. There was no multiclassing (or thieves a.k.a. rogues) in that rule set. That was a lot more like WoW than DDO is, despite being only available on paper. It was considerably dumbed down compared to AD&D. At 64 pages, the entire ruleset was smaller than some sections in the player's handbook. It was for people that were new to role playing games. The same might be said of WoW and other class=role games, which would explain their popularity. They're easier to understand and putting groups together is more straightforward.

The price of this flexibility is that people come in from other MMOs and assume D&D is the same way. They get the impression that the player base is stupid and a good portion don't play their role, when in reality, they are the ignorant ones for not understanding D&D before they try to lead groups and mouth off about classes not playing their roles. There isn't a class in this game that has a set role.

The rabbit hole runs deep. There are always at least 3 ways to skin a cat.

"Role Playing", in the D&D sense, is more about getting into character and acting the way someone would act playing that character. It's like theater. It has nothing to do with your party role.

Then again, don't listen to me. I've only been playing D&D for 30 years.

IMHO they should remove the class buttons from the LFM screen and replace them with role buttons:
Melee DPS
Caster DPS
Crowd Control
Healer
Trap Mechanic
Tank
Party Buffer

would just about cover it and completely solve this problem. Class buttons are a bad way to do it and that idea was taken from other MMO's that aren't like DDO. Most competent players can cover 1-3 of these roles.

[PopeJual]

Maybe they aren't a trap mechanic because their int is low and they need skillpoints for UMD, balance, diplomacy, jump etc. I could see this happening with a min-max DPS build. Another possibility is they are out of tools and embarrassed to ask if someone in the group has any.

If they put some of their gajillion skill points into Search and Disable Device (I'll even leave out Spot) and get a decent +skill item for each, they'll be able to disable every trap that they'll ever need to when they toss on a buff or two.

Level 10
+13 Search from skill points
-1 from 8 Int
+1 from Voice of the Master
+10 Skill item
+2 Heroism Potion or clicky (also helpful for DPS)
+2 from Fox Potion
That's +27 on their Search check without spending ANY AP or feats or even ability score points on any trap-related skills.

You can still spot a whole lot of traps with a +27. Add on another +5 to +7 for Thieves' Tools and you have your number for Disable Device with essentially no investment. Even at 8 Int, a nonhuman Rogue gets 7 skill points per level. They'll pick up trap busting abilities unless they put active effort into avoiding them.

I agree with pretty much the entire rest of your post, though.

[der_kluge]

I haven't read all of this 10 page thread, so I'll probably end up repeating things already said, but I'm going to say them anyway.

1. If you show up in a group with a cleric icon next to your name, and you don't heal, or you suck at it, people aren't going to like you very much.

2. No "battle cleric" will ever do as much damage as a barbarian, fighter, or paladin of their level. No way. No how.

3. I want someone to post a video of Shroud Part IV/Part V that's done WITHOUT a healer. Seriously, I want to see that. The only conceivable way this could be done is you've got a party full of harry-beating tanks that are just uber, or you've got a group with a bunch of UMD using rogues and bards with HEAL scrolls that make a fair substitute. The first isn't going to happen randomly, and the second would get wicked expensive after a while.

[PopeJual]

I haven't read all of this 10 page thread, so I'll probably end up repeating things already said, but I'm going to say them anyway.

1. If you show up in a group with a cleric icon next to your name, and you don't heal, or you suck at it, people aren't going to like you very much.

2. No "battle cleric" will ever do as much damage as a barbarian, fighter, or paladin of their level. No way. No how.

3. I want someone to post a video of Shroud Part IV/Part V that's done WITHOUT a healer. Seriously, I want to see that. The only conceivable way this could be done is you've got a party full of harry-beating tanks that are just uber, or you've got a group with a bunch of UMD using rogues and bards with HEAL scrolls that make a fair substitute. The first isn't going to happen randomly, and the second would get wicked expensive after a while.

This isn't exactly what you're looking for, but here's a few similar accomplishments.

How about a 2-man ToD with no Cleric or FvS?
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=263172

Shade solo'd Sins of Attrition on his Barbarian. I know it's not exactly what you're asking for, but it's a Barbarian, for crying out loud. A lot of them fall over dead just from their own self-damage if they don't have a nannybot to shepherd them.
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=244051

Here's a fleshy Wizard who solod SoS.
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=243659

Capped Barbarian who solo'd Havedasher ON ELITE and even managed to get an Onslaught bonus for killing so many enemies.
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=244411

Saw an All-Ranger Shroud screen shot on the forums recently. Everyone in the group had the Ranger icon, so that means that they at least had fewer Cleric/FvS levels than Ranger levels. Can't find the link to that.

[Phidius]

...
2. No "battle cleric" will ever do as much damage as a barbarian, fighter, or paladin of their level. No way. No how.

You should play the game more - Stryde does it all the time.

You need to consider player skill and gear in your declaration there.

...
3. I want someone to post a video of Shroud Part IV/Part V that's done WITHOUT a healer. Seriously, I want to see that. The only conceivable way this could be done is you've got a party full of harry-beating tanks that are just uber, or you've got a group with a bunch of UMD using rogues and bards with HEAL scrolls that make a fair substitute. The first isn't going to happen randomly, and the second would get wicked expensive after a while.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9iJUO18r0jg

Notice what level they are?

[SINIBYTE]

Only my barb really "needs" a healer. Everyone else is pretty self-sufficient.

[Calebro]

Capped Barbarian Who Solo'd Havedasher On Elite And Even Managed To Get An Onslaught Bonus For Killing So Many Enemies.
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=244411

Lol!

[der_kluge]

You should play the game more - Stryde does it all the time.

You need to consider player skill and gear in your declaration there.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9iJUO18r0jg

Notice what level they are?

They're 20th.

That's pretty impressive, I have to admit. I also noticed that the sorcerer pretty much does nothing but heals the barbarian in the last two stages. Seems like it sure would have been a lot more efficient with a cleric!! I also hate to imagine how many Heal scrolls he burned through doing that. One wonders if the money they spent on scrolls and potions was more than they acquired in loot from the quest. Not to mention the hours of time they spent on it.

[der_kluge]

Capped Barbarian who solo'd Havedasher ON ELITE and even managed to get an Onslaught bonus for killing so many enemies.
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=244411

My, my - that certainly IS impressive!

[Fenrisulven6]

Oh and just so you don't ask yes I carry around status removing wands/pots as well as repair wands and even a few divine wands (referring to Kraite) that my UMD can handle so I can get by without a Cleric,etc. things are just ALOT easier with one it makes things alot quicker and less resource draining.

I dont mind joining LFMs that say "need healer".

I often switch over to a cleric when I see such a group. Usually its a decent PUG trying a quest that challenges their limits, and they want a little insurance as backup. Gywlan's Elite, Von 3 Hard, Tear Elite (before the nerf).

But I dont play a healbot. I demonstate what can be done with spec'd Greater Command or spec'd Soundburst. Divine Healing. Holy Smite and Searing Light (cs undead). I focus mainly on crowd contol and some melee, but I also think my #1 priority is Burst Heals in combat. If I'm doing that well, then I can do whatever else I want.

[ElfedLied4]

Seems like it sure would have been a lot more efficient with a cleric!! I also hate to imagine how many Heal scrolls he burned through doing that.

They are toasters. Reconstruct heals them. (Also any other repair spell)

[PopeJual]

They're 20th.

That's pretty impressive, I have to admit. I also noticed that the sorcerer pretty much does nothing but heals the barbarian in the last two stages. Seems like it sure would have been a lot more efficient with a cleric!! I also hate to imagine how many Heal scrolls he burned through doing that. One wonders if the money they spent on scrolls and potions was more than they acquired in loot from the quest. Not to mention the hours of time they spent on it.

They were either 15th or 16th leel when the video was made. Look at the XP bar in the video. I couldn't tell if it was 15th or 16th because it was a bit blurry, but it was one of those two.

[Phidius]

They were either 15th or 16th leel when the video was made. Look at the XP bar in the video. I couldn't tell if it was 15th or 16th because it was a bit blurry, but it was one of those two.

They were 16th level. This was one of the many interesting twists people put on the Shroud back before DDO:Stormreach became DDO:EU.

I couldn't find the screenshots of the all-wizard Elite Shroud.

[Phidius]

They're 20th.

That's pretty impressive, I have to admit. I also noticed that the sorcerer pretty much does nothing but heals the barbarian in the last two stages. Seems like it sure would have been a lot more efficient with a cleric!! I also hate to imagine how many Heal scrolls he burned through doing that. One wonders if the money they spent on scrolls and potions was more than they acquired in loot from the quest. Not to mention the hours of time they spent on it.

You didn't notice him moving Polar Ray and Force Missles to a better spot on his hotbar at the end of part 4?

Too bad Oddlived didn't make a video of his WF Wiz soloing up to part 5.

The point is, a "healer" (defined as a cleric/FvS who does nothing but keep red bars full) isn't needed by the game, just by the people who play it... and not all of them, either.

[Irinis]

If someone yells HEAL ME ... HEAL ME ... and they are capable of healing themselves ... I inform them that the wand and scroll vendor is in House J.

Because 20 hp from cure serious on a 4 second timer will really protect against the next -200 hp after you've already taken -400 worth of those... yup. Also especially good to wand or pot yourself while incap, held, etc.

But of course a veteran player never gets held or incap. They know the secret source to get FOM pots!

[Bloodlance]

You realize that completely validated his point? If the cleric refuses to heal him, and he should do it himself, he is completely justified in refusing to disarm, because the cleric should just handle it himself.

i play a cleric (1monk/2rogue/17cleric) (lvl 11 atm)

if mana is tight and i know i need the mana to upcoming bossfight and there is a player who cant heal himself up, i say to him to fix his stuff up so he can do it, its not like its Clerics job to heal people up all the time. Healing potions is a great way to get HP 100% or healing wands if you have the UMD.

And before you say it, i can open all the locks and disarm all the traps also. so yea, in DDO you can do almost everything if you put some effort to it and plan in advance.

IF the cleric has healing aura, the after combat time can be used to aura heal people up, if the group is not speed running the quest and if they r a group they should speed run it

but ye, dont say if x then y, as some players can do X and Y.

[sisterjinx]

If someone yells HEAL ME ... HEAL ME ... and they are capable of healing themselves ... I inform them that the wand and scroll vendor is in House J.

First off if someone yells "HEAL ME HEAL ME" in any party I'm in they go on my list. Partly because our "healer" types are played by either one of our close friends or my husband and I know darn well they are getting healed as it is possible to do so.

Second off if we ever do have to pug a Cleric/FVS spot (it has happened on occasion) and I see them doing a darn good job I will tip them, if I see them using resources (ie wands or scrolls) to do it I will often even mail them a stack of scrolls or a couple of wands (depending on lvl) later in the day/evening or give it to them if they stick around long enough for me to do so.

And as far as lfm's with "need cleric" I don't think we've ever put "need" in there but we have put cleric/FVS preferred and will often leave it closed to other classes and go without a sixth at all if we have to.

(forum threads like this just remind me why I so appreciate our dedicated group that we usually run with.)

[learst]

I can take near any character and solo much the game... question comes down to this? Do I want some company to play - together - or am I out only to do it myself.

Where I and many people come from - level 20 - this is the game ... all that other **** is but a fragment - a blink of a character's eye - of the time to get here.

I agree. +1 virtual rep ("You have to spread some reputation around before..)