Bard Multiclassing

[kilo23]

OK, so i know i want to have an arcane cannon mixed with some bard song buffs (mostly just for me), but at what level should i take sorc? i'm starting out as a customized bard y'know, normal beginning buffs and the beginning crowd control spells and songs. I was thinking making it a 2bard/18sorc. Would that work? or should i change something in this?

[blitzschlag]

(even if people say "never do this you stupid fkn idiot!" i will still do it, and just go 2/18.)

so what is this thread good for if
you say that even if ppl post advise (useful or not) you won't listen and do what you planned anyway?

[Kriogen]

Bards get 1 song per class level. So your bard2/sorc18 gets 2 songs per rest.

Some bards songs get more powerfull with more Bard levels. Bards also get new songs with different effects with more levels.

[kilo23]

ahh, but there are enhancements that i get use to get me more songs per rest.

[Kriogen]

ahh, but there are enhancements that i get use to get me more songs per rest.

One song. 1 (one).

[unbongwah]

So lemme get this straight: you're willing to water down your sorcerer spellcasting (inc. sacrificing the capstone) for 2 or 3 weaksauce bard buff / CC songs per rest - and you're gonna ignore anyone who tells you NOT to do it?

Then **** the torpedoes and full speed ahead!

[You'll be soooorryyyyyyy...]

[kelemvelor]

I'm curious, what bard song buffs at bard level 2 would help an arcane canon? The possible songs as that level are:

Inspire Courage --> More for melees
Fascinate --> Possible a very high DC crowd control but a sorcerer already has access to CC at higher levels which doesn't require him to be right in the center of the action.

Do note that the low levels of bard means that it is unlikely any of the bard's CC spells are effective (low SR, low DCs with no chance in heightening) and that most of the bard's spell buffs at the level can be obtained as a sorcerer.

With 2 levels in bard, your sorcerer loses
(1) two level 9 spells and one level 8 spell
(2) 2 in check when defeating SR
(3) Sorcerer capstone

[Shishizaru]

I'm curious, what bard song buffs at bard level 2 would help an arcane canon? The possible songs as that level are:

Inspire Courage --> More for melees
Fascinate --> Possible a very high DC crowd control but a sorcerer already has access to CC at higher levels which doesn't require him to be right in the center of the action.

Do note that the low levels of bard means that it is unlikely any of the bard's CC spells are effective (low SR, low DCs with no chance in heightening) and that most of the bard's spell buffs at the level can be obtained as a sorcerer.

With 2 levels in bard, your sorcerer loses
(1) two level 9 spells and one level 8 spell
(2) 2 in check when defeating SR
(3) Sorcerer capstone

Fascinate's DC is: Perform +1d20. It does not factor in any bonuses to skills/perform, only the base ranks taken. So it's highly doubtful that it'll be high DC on a Sorcerer.

[Aashrym]

Fascinate's DC is: Perform +1d20. It does not factor in any bonuses to skills/perform, only the base ranks taken. So it's highly doubtful that it'll be high DC on a Sorcerer.

Fascinate is the perform check. It does add all the pretty bonuses, not just base ranks. Getting new songs is based on the number of ranks, not the perform check.

Just thought I'd clear that up

[Shishizaru]

Fascinate is the perform check. It does add all the pretty bonuses, not just base ranks. Getting new songs is based on the number of ranks, not the perform check.

Just thought I'd clear that up

And there I thought I was being thorough by checking the wiki. You are indeed correct. XD
Misreading ftw...

[sigtrent]

Fascinate is the perform check. It does add all the pretty bonuses, not just base ranks. Getting new songs is based on the number of ranks, not the perform check.

Just thought I'd clear that up

I think we need to clear up your clear up.

"Getting" new songs is really based on bard level, being able to use them is based on ranks in perform. The DC to save against them is based on a perform check.

I can't think of a good reason to splash 2 bard on a sorcerer. 1 bard... I suppose if you just want UMD without as much mana hit as 1 rogue would be. The songs are not worth while beyond the early levels for this kind of character.

Its not that you would suck, 18 sorc is still pretty beefy, but you would not be getting much for the splash that you will find as useful as more mana, better damage and spell penetration being a full sorcerer. Trading the capstone for full UMD is a valid way to go but thats just one level of a full UMD class.

[kilo23]

ok, so what you're saying is that the highest level sorc spells will be wasted by some small bard buffs and UMD? hmmmmmmmm....i might have to rethink this whole thing. I was under the impression that as i get higher in levels, my bard songs would be more difficult to resist.

[Shishizaru]

ok, so what you're saying is that the highest level sorc spells will be wasted by some small bard buffs and UMD? hmmmmmmmm....i might have to rethink this whole thing. I was under the impression that as i get higher in levels, my bard songs would be more difficult to resist.

Taking only two levels of bard gives you at most 2 songs. Only one can be "resisted" as the other is a buff. As mentioned in the muddle above, Fascinate's DC depends on your perform skill, so it is unaffected by how many bard levels you have (except for the fact that Perform is a Bard-class skill).

If you meant that you thought your Bard songs would get better and better as you leveled, then you'd be correct that they won't if you stop taking levels of Bard. Bard songs get upgraded via Enhancements, many of which are not available to Bard 2. If you want good songs, 18 Bard can be considered a "minimum."

In essence, that's what everyone is trying to tell you. If you want buffs, stick to the ones that Sorcerer's have access to. If you want good Bard songs, you'd better be a Bard (or mostly one). Bard splash for songs isn't worth the losses elsewhere (i.e. pure caster).

[Aashrym]

I think we need to clear up your clear up.

"Getting" new songs is really based on bard level, being able to use them is based on ranks in perform. The DC to save against them is based on a perform check.

I can't think of a good reason to splash 2 bard on a sorcerer. 1 bard... I suppose if you just want UMD without as much mana hit as 1 rogue would be. The songs are not worth while beyond the early levels for this kind of character.

Its not that you would suck, 18 sorc is still pretty beefy, but you would not be getting much for the splash that you will find as useful as more mana, better damage and spell penetration being a full sorcerer. Trading the capstone for full UMD is a valid way to go but thats just one level of a full UMD class.

I stand corrected. Not from lack of understanding, more from lack on communication skills early in the morning here

Thanks for clearing up my clear up tho. I'd hate to mislead someone.

[kilo23]

Well, thanks guys.

[Humperdink]

The most common multiclass is 1bard/19 sorcerer. This allows you to spend 1 full skill point each level into UMD instead of .5 of a point. This allows you to quite easily reach a UMD of 40 which highly increases the self sustainability and utility of your caster by allowing you to use all kinds of scrolls like Raise Dead and Heal. For example my pure Human lvl 20 sorcerer combines Wand/Scroll Mastery with Human racial healing amplification to heal myself for about 210 points per Heal scroll. But I had to work to get that UMD by farming the Head of Good fortune from the Reaver gianthold raid, the gloves from the Titan raid, and craft Tier III greensteel goggles from the Shroud. The benefit of the 19/1 split is you don't have to work as hard to farm all that gear. With probably just the Cartouche from Delara's tome you could reach 40UMD easily. The down side is you give up +1 to your spell penetration and the sorcerer capstone which aids spell damage ability (and I think 1 spell slot, but I'd have to consult the DDO wiki on that).