Sins of Attrition on Elite, 44 mins, Fleshy Wiz

[Aspenor]

DDO is ALOT more strategy oriented, and as such, you can use strategy to solo content given the right resources and metagaming. Live with it. You already know the alternative....

I guess he missed the part where the OP outlined strategy, including invisibility, charms, etc. Shade showed how he did pulls, and fought in a mobile fashion.

These are all strategic elements that have nothing to do with gear.

[kaelis]

Khelden, on your fighter do you even have stunning blow? trip? improved trip? sap? If not, get them. Fighter will seem a lot easier.


*gasp* what do you know; by using tactics (exactly what they are in this instance) I could very well have just made it easier for you to solo.

Tactics are what shade used, tactics are what ddoer used, tactics of some variation are what are used to solo anything.

A lot of player's can't solo in DDO because their character isn't specced/geared or prepared to solo. Your comparisons are also lacking; dq2 is one of the oldest and poorest designed raids in the game; you'll notice no one soloing Epic vons 5, or 6, and only 2 people have solo'd epic dq. Go figure, making it an extreme challenge (as they both used an inordinate amount of resources to accomplishment, and multiple attempts i assume)

If the game's a joke to you and your not having fun, leave. No one will miss you more then all the others who are leaving/left.

[Khelden]

Chai, on oyur fighter do you even have stunning blow? trip? improved trip? sap? If not, get them. Fighter will seem a lot easier.


*gasp* what do you know; by using tactics (exactly what they are in this instance) I could very well have just made it easier for you to solo.

Tactics are what shade used, tactics are what ddoer used, tactics of some variation are what are used to solo anything.

A lot of player's can't solo in DDO because their character isn't specced/geared or prepared to solo. Your comparisons are also lacking; dq2 is one of the oldest and poorest designed raids in the game; you'll notice no one soloing Epic vons 5, or 6, and only 2 people have solo'd epic dq. Go figure, making it an extreme challenge (as they both used an inordinate amount of resources to accomplishment, and multiple attempts i assume)

If the game's a joke to you and your not having fun, leave. No one will miss you more then all the others who are leaving/left.

Adressing to the right person is too hard I guess? Also, I have pretty much all what you're suggesting and I don't think Sap would make it day to night. Also, what class were those 2 person who solo'd DQ?

Chai, I don't know what kind of group lead you had, but to have you heal a single target, on a paladin [easiest healing class atm], I would never have invited you in my guild for sure lol. Try a priest if anything. I would have liked to see you use some macro to fight Mirmiron hard mode. How do I expect them to make cleric harder? Easy.

Heal should never heal for more than 300, healing amp included. Ohh but some mobs hits for 600? Perfect, we got a nice game then. BB doing 400dmgs? Haha, good one. Let's make it, idk... 15d6 * 1,5 = 135 max.

[Chai]

Chai, on oyur fighter do you even have stunning blow? trip? improved trip? sap? If not, get them. Fighter will seem a lot easier.


*gasp* what do you know; by using tactics (exactly what they are in this instance) I could very well have just made it easier for you to solo.

Tactics are what shade used, tactics are what ddoer used, tactics of some variation are what are used to solo anything.

A lot of player's can't solo in DDO because their character isn't specced/geared or prepared to solo. Your comparisons are also lacking; dq2 is one of the oldest and poorest designed raids in the game; you'll notice no one soloing Epic vons 5, or 6, and only 2 people have solo'd epic dq. Go figure, making it an extreme challenge (as they both used an inordinate amount of resources to accomplishment, and multiple attempts i assume)

If the game's a joke to you and your not having fun, leave. No one will miss you more then all the others who are leaving/left.

Not only tactics, but builds as well. I can build a toon in DDO to play the roles I want it to play and I am not necessarily limited to a certain class for this due to a closed door formula based game structure. This is why DnD will always reign supreme for me.

The same quest plays entirely differently on a different build.

Going back to the WOW comparison, if you rolled up a rogue, you are a rogue. If you like that one awesome ability that fighters have, you need to roll a fighter, because you cant get it on a rogue. Everything is cookie cutter, and the gear is acquired ona tier level basis. The Blizzard DEVs can base the game on this one known formula for success, and create content accordingly.

In DDO, I can BUILD a toon that suits my needs, just like I can BUILD a strat to beat a quest. I dont have to fall into the comfort zone of 1 tank 1 healer 2 melee dps and 1 caster dps formula to win, nor do I have to wait for a group to fill to play the game.

[kaelis]

Adressing to the right person is too hard I guess? Also, I have pretty much all what you're suggesting and I don't think Sap would make it day to night. Also, what class were those 2 person who solo'd DQ?

Chai, I don't know what kind of group lead you had, but to have you heal a single target, on a paladin [easiest healing class atm], I would never have invited you in my guild for sure lol. Try a priest if anything. I would have liked to see you use some macro to fight Mirmiron hard mode. How do I expect them to make cleric harder? Easy.

Heal should never heal for more than 300, healing amp included. Ohh but some mobs hits for 600? Perfect, we got a nice game then. BB doing 400dmgs? Haha, good one. Let's make it, idk... 15d6 * 1,5 = 135 max.

I reiterate, your playing wrong. Im leveling a fighter right now and I'm soloing stuff left right n center. Level 11 as a trx2 (meaning im at over 1million xp worth iof short man/soloing) I'm not even fully melee twinked, and I suck at playing melee, as im a caster guy; go figure.

[Chai]

Adressing to the right person is too hard I guess? Also, I have pretty much all what you're suggesting and I don't think Sap would make it day to night. Also, what class were those 2 person who solo'd DQ?

Chai, I don't know what kind of group lead you had, but to have you heal a single target, on a paladin [easiest healing class atm], I would never have invited you in my guild for sure lol. Try a priest if anything. I would have liked to see you use some macro to fight Mirmiron hard mode. How do I expect them to make cleric harder? Easy.

Heal should never heal for more than 300, healing amp included. Ohh but some mobs hits for 600? Perfect, we got a nice game then. BB doing 400dmgs? Haha, good one. Let's make it, idk... 15d6 * 1,5 = 135.

I ran an end game priest all the way through tier 6.

I am still waiting for an answer to the below question. Asked it 3 times now.

WOW is a game where if you are not in battle your toon regens hp and mana back to full in less than a minute between encounters. As this is not true in DDO, how then do you expect to make DDO much harder without demanding theat healers spend even more on expendible resources than they already do which is considerable.

[Aspenor]

I figured I might as well also mention that players with the best tactical and strategical ability tend to have lots of gear, from being around for a long time.

[Khelden]

Not only tactics, but builds as well. I can build a toon in DDO to play the roles I want it to play and I am not necessarily limited to a certain class for this due to a closed door formula based game structure. This is why DnD will always reign supreme for me.

The same quest plays entirely differently on a different build.

Going back to the WOW comparison, if you rolled up a rogue, you are a rogue. If you like that one awesome ability that fighters have, you need to roll a fighter, because you cant get it on a rogue. Everything is cookie cutter, and the gear is acquired ona tier level basis. The Blizzard DEVs can base the game on this one known formula for success, and create content accordingly.

In DDO, I can BUILD a toon that suits my needs, just like I can BUILD a strat to beat a quest. I dont have to fall into the comfort zone of 1 tank 1 healer 2 melee dps and 1 caster dps formula to win, nor do I have to wait for a group to fill to play the game.

I also like the possibility of multi-classing, but my point is not about this. It's about how people solo the content, easily it seems. This should NEVER be. A player should always have an hell of a time soloing anything, whatever his class is. When a class requires 2x more effort, gear than another one to do something, there's a problem.

[Creeper]

My point is that this game should be made extremely harder, for everybody, any class. Less godmode possible. The guy can heal for 1200? Then he should DPS like a very weak badger, nothing comparable to a pure DPS.

Just curious Khel, what level/name is your main character and what server do you play on?

[kaelis]

I also like the possibility of multi-classing, but my point is not about this. It's about how people solo the content, easily it seems. This should NEVER be. A player should always have an hell of a time soloing anything, whatever his class is.

The people soloing are, to quote someone i despise and loath "the best of the best" and they are accomplishments for a reason. The forums are a minority, and a lot of people cannot solo. Those with skill/knowledge/gear can.

The game used to have some challenge while soloing, back before it went F2P, so likely before you joined, and it was changed to accomodate the newer players coming from WoW, who complained that the game was, ironically enough, to hard. Go figure.

[Chai]

I also like the possibility of multi-classing, but my point is not about this. It's about how people solo the content, easily it seems. This should NEVER be. A player should always have an hell of a time soloing anything, whatever his class is.

What should NEVER be, is being able to write an attack macro and leave your toon in the middle of a zone and wake up to level it, go to work, come home and level it again.

In WOW people dont even run instances. They just have someone twice the level come and plow it for them and they still get xp + blue loot for leveling. Nothing like having level 70+ enchants on level 19 toons and killing noobs in PVP who arent twinked. Lots of hard strat involved there.

Most of the old world content before the current expansion is dead in WOW. Not so in DDO. After 4 years we still run all the quests.

[Khelden]

What should NEVER be, is being able to write an attack macro and leave your toon in the middle of a zone and wake up to level it, go to work, come home and level it again.

In WOW people dont even run instances. They just have someone twice the level come and plow it for them and they still get xp + blue loot for leveling. Nothing like having level 70+ enchants on level 19 toons and killing noobs in PVP who arent twinked. Lots of hard strat involved there.

Most of the old world content before the current expansion is dead in WOW. Not so in DDO. After 4 years we still run all the quests.

That kind of script can be done on pretty much any game. I can easily see how it could be done on DDO too, on some selected quests. Now, if I chose to play every game without any kind of cheat and you did not, this is another thing.

Kaelis, I do agree forum community has some of the best players. This is why, when I want to see the potential of a class, I come on these boards. However, what I see is far from being interesting. I am now level 19 and each level, the game becomes more and more boring, creating huge gasp between classes. The game was at his top around lvl 12 imo. I am somewhat new on DDO, but I don't think Shade character is one of the weakest characters. However, when compared with other FvS/Clerics, he seems weaker than a level 1. Is this the kind of game DDO is?

"Sorry bud, you did not roll the most OP class, so you will have to group with people who don't have to group to solo the game"

As for making the game easier for those coming from wow, it can be true. I remember when I left WoW that I was extremely annoyed at how people were bad. (Pulling mobs in middle of the room, standing in fire etc.) Even if WoW has some of the most elite player base, they also have a huge pool of baddies. Both comes.

[valorik]

khelden, I don't think anyone is going to say endgame raiding and pvp in wow doesn't take any skill, but there's a complete difference in how that is played and how ddo is played.

Ddo is about movement where wow is about numbers, in ddo it's possible with the right method to avoid a lot of damage, in wow you pretty much ahve to take everything head on and have the strength in a character rather than a player to beat it.

DDO can be won as much through player skill and strength as through character strength, player skll is more important than build and gear, knowing how to improve your gear to increase your abilities as a player is what the game is about.

It's true that for sins of attrition and a few other quests bladebarrier and quickened heal can be an easy button, but there are plenty of places where this is the exact opposite of the case, being a good player is about knowing what to use when to use it, and how to use it.

WoW is about squeezing out htat extra +1 to get you through a tight spot and making sure you're doing things in correct sequence and with enough coordination, there's more of htis in raiding than 6 man questing in ddo.

[ddoer]

Took me a few tries as the traps would take me down in 2 shots and there were multiple traps that hit you 3-4 times a shot.

before they have fixed the insane trap damage, I wasn't able to solo it at all.

I do think it's very tough if you don't use invis/hireling/summons/kiting thru traps and actually try to kill every single monster along the way with your own attacks/spells.

on elite, my build won't have enough mana to kill every mob without extra spending time for mana regen or using pots. on normal, however, it is easy for me to kill every mob. different class has different strength and I think it is actually easier for a barb/fighter to kill every mob than trying to skip every fight. (because of lacking move silently skills even if you got inv pots)

Nicely done. 0 SP pots is particularly nice, how did you manage to keep so much sp? Invis and run through?

as you may see in the screenshot, i got only around 2150 mana + bauble and it is not high at all. there are 3 rest shrines in the quest and i also cheated by getting some DVs from the hiring. the following are some notes:

• I clear to the Saligia table and then go back to use the first shrine, so I have full mana before starting the Saligia fight
• as mentioned in the quote in #1, I charmed mobs in the table room and also the next two groups of mobs and use them to fight the Saligia. On normal/hard, I sometimes just use a greatsword to melee the Saligia and ask a hiring to keep me healed, or just energy drain + wail to kill all mobs, but the same tactic won't work on elite. (i also solo'd normal many times in different ways before)
• after killed Saligia, I run with invisibility + move silently 15 boots and setup kill zones when there is dungeon alert until I get to the 2nd rest shrine. The last kill zone is always at the junction before the shrine. I'll put mindfog, disco ball (perhaps symbol of stun too) and charm monster, and keep myself with haste and stoneskin, (not always with displacement as it reduces the mana i could get back) and spam Wail of the Banshee. bamble-casters is used to reduce the damage from the Orthons' manyshot.
• I believe I have enough mana to kill for only 3-4 rounds per rest shrine. And only for the last round before shrine I need to kill every mob, otherwise, I'll just kill roughly 80% of mobs and then move on to the next group. It is expensive to kill the last one or two mobs.
• i won't use any single foe spell, such as otto irresistible dance or fod as they consume too much mana. for the last one or two mobs, i usually melee them (and get some mana back at the same time) or kill with my past life damage spells.

for a caster, making a quest more difficult (such as requiring to kill every mob or skip the optional) simply mean i will have to use more mana and probably require to use mana pots.

[sirgog]

The raid content in WOW has people hitting the same 3 buttons constantly for 15 minutes at a time on longer fights to beat down mobs that have 14 million hp. It was all gear based. You either have the gear to do it or you dont. The same strat applies to every raid as far as the role your toon plays. Not true in DDO.

DDO is ALOT more strategy oriented, and as such, you can use strategy to solo content given the right resources and metagaming. Live with it. You already know the alternative....

That's not exactly accurate about WoW.

The encounter in all of DDO that's most similar to WoW's high-end content is the Barnizdu fight in A New Invasion on Elite.

It requires you to meet a minimum DPS threshold or fail (you must out-DPS Barnizdu's regen) whilst healing through the boss's regular attacks and avoiding 'special' attacks.

I'd describe WoW's combat as turn-based attacking with real time strategic positioning. Harder encounters require a nearly perfect strategy for optimizing the turn-based combat system (i.e. having a somewhat optimized strategy for what to cast on each of your cooldowns), plus near perfect (or perfect) avoidance of various boss attacks, plus a minimum level of gear.

[MrWizard]

congrats....
I think a well built melee toon can do it fine.
A really good caster can do it fine.
About any decent FvS could do it fine.
All elite.


I think elite setting should have better loot. Each time, solo or with group, the drops of boot or shroud ingredients have not seemed any better, so I stopped trying elite.

[MrWizard]

I do think it's very tough if you don't use invis/hireling/summons/kiting thru traps and actually try to kill every single monster along the way with your own attacks/spells. On any class, even a wizard or favored soul. Tho notable more difficult on some classes then others

Also it's notably more difficult to face the Horned Devil at his full strength, then the joke boss (bard)

well, post a vid of you doing it without a summons...lol

Honestly, the horned devil is easy...it is that dude vidian that I think is the hardest unless you have evasion or huge fire reductions.

Vidian is a combat casting tiefling that likes to spam power word spells, mostly blindness. Will occasionally cast holding spells, fear, and on harder difficulties feeblemind. Offensively he uses delayed blast fireball and ball lightning, as well as his longsword.

Those constant damage spells in the 300s really hurt...I would go for the devil any day.

Not to rag on anyone, but why you all use haste doing this quest?..It's much funner going slow...

[ddoer]

My wiz is resp'd to Pale Master. Inspired by Tobril, I re-do the Sins elite solo run. It took 16 mins, 105 kills, used the first and last (prisoner) rest shrines.

Screenshot:


This run is much easier than the previous 44 mins run. Death Auro + Temp HP > damages. After the table room fight, I basically keep moving and cast Wail of Banshee (DC 44) for once or twice in every ambush point as well as whenever the alert is higher than green. And kill every mob in front of the prisoner room door.

[Tobril]

My wiz is resp'd to Pale Master. Inspired by Tobril, I re-do the Sins elite solo run. It took 16 mins, 105 kills, used the first and last (prisoner) rest shrines.

Nicely done, I guess it's time for me to actually learn some strategy and make this a nice quick loot run.

Ddoer - "Tobril, are you coming?"
Tobril - "What are you talking about? I'm like halfway through the quest!"
Ddoer - "I already finished and left to made a sandwich, hurry up!"