Time for a global rebalance of named items

[rimble]

Agreed. I think every game has gone through this as they've matured, and it's long overdue. The equipment situation is totally jacked up in DDO.

[Deathseeker]

As usual, very good feedback we all wish the devs would hear.

I do worry about power creep however. If named loot increases too much, then the spread between the abilities of those that have it and those that don't will increase. That will either lead to dungeons being adjusted, or content becoming even less of a challenge for a geared level appropriate group.

I'd like to see adjustments to the named loot that dont really introduce an increase in "power" of characters at that level, but maybe help with convenience, or put it on par with items that already exist. If something is adjusted that increases player ability at those levels, then it should be rare enough that it isnt "required" gear during the levelling process.

As far as the Sword of Shadows, I think Turbine has put itself in a tough position. It isn't too big of a problem yet, and may not be for a while, but as time goes on and more and more players acquire it, it's going to start creating issues...ie, all THF melee are expected to be wielding it.

But with the above said, your are right on target...most of the named loot is useless at this point. And then there are those that are still almost "required" for some builds at endgame that are super low min level (bloodstone, chattering ring, icy raiments).

[Memnir]

An excellent post. +1.


I hope that this post gets read by many on the development team - and that it gets them thinking and acting on it.

[Schwarzie]

+1 and /signed.

Even if i dont think that nerfing should be forbidden in all instances (Kopesh is long overdue...) a focus on buffing now useless items and increasing Droprates for ex-Endgameitems is a very good suggestion.

EDIT: You must spread some Reputation around... It seems you write too many postings i find usefull/agree to.

[Thrudh]

There are a few people in the playerbase that Turbine would gain from hiring. Angelus_dead (as a system designer) and Memnir (as a CM) being the two obvious ones.

Although his ideas are good, somehow I don't think A_D would be fun to work with...

Morning Meeting:
Dev1: We're thinking about implementing this...
A_D: Wrong!!!

[Gunga]

A_D, a terrific look at the state of named loot.

I'm thoroughly impressed, though this won't stop me from making snotty remarks at your snotty remarks.

Great, great, great. +1

[marshm1972]

Good Post A_D!

[Bogenbroom]

Excellent A_D. Wish I could +2 you!

One thing I notice is a conspicuous absence of Greensteel. Any balancing that happens really needs to include Greensteel items.

[LugnutEU]

It's also sad that a ML 6 bow is just about the best named bow available. Ranged weapons are sadly lacking overall in named loot. Where are the named dwarven axes??

[Borror0]

Although his ideas are good, somehow I don't think A_D would be fun to work with...

Shows how little you know or understand him and how little attention you've given to the evolution of his posting style.

[Thrudh]

Shows how little you know or understand him and how little attention you've given to the evolution of his posting style.

Heh, maybe... it was a tongue-in-cheek statement (note that my first response in this thread was high praise)

However, are you actually claming you "understand" an anonymous Internet poster better than me? We've read the same posts, but you "understand" him better in absolute terms??

That sounds suspiciously like you're saying "Wrong!!" to me

Or maybe it's all subjective? And we both have different views of the same person?

[DagazUlf]

Excellent!

(And here's my post to help keep this thread fresh and increase the odds of it hopefully being perused by anyone on the Dev Team.)

[AylinIsAwesome]

Oh yes, please buff items! /signed!!!

I'm tired of doing run after run after run for a pair of Spectral Gloves...only to get a Ward to Undeath or whatever that shield is called.

Oh yes, I'll totally go bash some undead now that I have super-epic piece of named loot... [/sarcasm off]

[Timjc86]

although His Ideas Are Good, Somehow I Don't Think A_d Would Be Fun To Work With...

morning Meeting:
Dev1: We're Thinking About Implementing This...
A_d: Wrong!!!

L O L!

Edit: Fantastic suggestions of course, as usual.

[Artos_Fabril]

I think the first step is to make the ML for quest rewards at least equal to the min level to run the quest, then balance quest rewards and named loot based on that. This would also help address the gear disparity between "mains" and "alts" that A_D mentions in post #6:

As a simplification we could say that first characters (mains) tend to get items four levels later than secondary characters (alts) do.

For instance, if you're running a level 8 quest, none of the reward options should be a basic +1 weapon.

[FluffyCalico]

Vault of Night
Problems with epic Sword of Shadows were well discussed back when it was first leaked. It's too late to nerf it now, so instead it can be used as a guide for the top end of what epic weapons are balanced against.

I'm really confused now. Your entire thread is about re-balancing items which are out of balance which always results in nerfs of the powerful and buffs of the weak, yet then you go and say its to late to "re-balance" the most out of balance item currently in the game. If its too late to re-rebalance one of the newest items in the game how is it not too late to re-balance the rest. Pretty much 90% of the re-balancing will be nerfs, its always is. All this is going to do is **** everyone off when about 1 of their items per week gets nerfed.

[Borror0]

Pretty much 90% of the re-balancing will be nerfs, its always is.

Rebalancing items is different, though. Items are a touchy subject. Balancing characters can easily be shrugged off as "just respec" or "adapt." However, nerfing an item means that the work that has been put into acquiring the items is now wasted. Before nerfing an item, you have to be sure it is really worthwhile. And, in the case of most items, it really isn't. Generally speaking, the problem is not that some items are too powerful but rather that the rest is too weak and does not compare to the other.

Mind you, there are a few exceptions but that us generally the case anyhow.

PS: I disagree with A_D and I think there is value in nerfing the ESoS but his position is defensible

[Angelus_dead]

I think the first step is to make the ML for quest rewards at least equal to the min level to run the quest, then balance quest rewards and named loot based on that.

That reduces some problem, but creates another one: characters of level 7, 6 and even 5 doing a level 8 quest and then receiving items that they can't even hold. It was to avoid that problem that the DDO developers originally decided that quests should give loot with minimum level a few below the content. Their original thinking had been that ML X items would mostly be used by characters of X+2 or X+3, but they badly misjudged how easy it would be for players to swap items between characters (maybe blinded by D&D experience where games only had 4-6 players total).

However,a more complicated approach could be a bit better: when a character personally loots an item it has a -2 modifier to minimum level, which ends whenever he exchanges it to another character.

[Angelus_dead]

One thing I notice is a conspicuous absence of Greensteel. Any balancing that happens really needs to include Greensteel items.

I was focusing on items which are too weak to be worth it, and Greensteel is mostly the opposite. We all know that the greensteel bonuses should have originally been a little less than they are now, and that there should have been green handwraps as soon as monks came out. But it's pretty much too late for that how, and I would instead use greensteel as a baseline to compare new higher-level items against. (In particular, the handwraps that should have been included in the Subterane, Inspiration Quarter, and Sentinels area)

A few changes I would make to Shroud crafting:
1. Make it easier to acquire some of the ingredients through other dungeons, probably especially Shard of Power. The other places to get a shard can actually be harder than shroud pt 1, so long as it is different.

2. On the subject of items which aren't worth using, there's a whole list of Shroud weapon effects that are pointless because they use a negative focus. So create a new ingredient which drops in some other dungeon, like maybe Demon's Den (or anyplace that doesn't have good loot yet). It is called Focus of Indiscriminate Destruction, and you can collect a lot of them and merge them into an existing weapon. When that is done, any d6s of Unholy or Pure Evil damage on the weapon become 1d4s of Indiscriminate Evil, which harms creatures of any alignment.

3. Put a really high fort save onto Radiance blindness (also stop it from moving an immobilized monster). However, Weighted deserves a high fort save too...

4. When the giant item rebalance is released, consider providing players with some Essence of Unbuilding, which pulls a greensteel item apart into the component ingredients. That way they have the opportunity to "respec" some of their items to account for how a lot of stuff has changed value.

[Bogenbroom]

A few changes I would make to Shroud crafting:
1. Make it easier to acquire some of the ingredients through other dungeons, probably especially Shard of Power. The other places to get a shard can actually be harder than shroud pt 1, so long as it is different.

Oh, good god yes! That has been high on my wish list for a while. What I have been wishing for is a system that let you flag to add such materials to your general loot tables at appropriate level. So, say, once you complete the Shroud (or complete on elite, or complete X times, or something) GS ingredients would be added to your general loot tables for random roll.

Oh, the joy that would bring.