Discussion: 12 RGR / 8 FTR

[Pithrin]

Hail and well met!

Have an exploiter build (Dwf DA's) that's sidelined currently and would like input from other 'exploiter's and from anyone else who would like to weigh in on this please.

I've got a build for a 12 RGR / 8 FTR that I'm going to test.
32 pt; Human; TWF line; STR build; Tempest II; Kensei I; Fighter Spec I; Fighter Flank II; etc

HP's 358 / 468 (pre-Shroud gear)

Not going w/ CE and Whirlwind though, decided to up my WIS for more SP and to shore up my Will saves.

Understanding that I'm giving up some skills, UMD, AC, traps from the exploiter standard. But, what I'm hoping to accomplish is a better DPS TWF that can still solo (but has a static group), has evasion, self buff 34 STR, wand whip heal, resist line and the extra feat(s) for Human and FTR 8 as well as the added DPS enhancements.

Anyone run with a build similar to this and have any advice?

Thanks in advance!

[sephiroth1084]

What are you actually gaining here, and at what cost?

Fighter 8 Kensia gains +4 damage/swing, +3 to-hit.
Rogue 1 gains +1d6+3 damage/swing (without aggro, or vs. blinded).

So, the 1 level of rogue (Exploiter) nets you more DPS vs. a lot of stuff, less vs. others, and none vs. yet another group, while the fighter's 8 levels gets you a more consistent DPS and attack increase. That's not bad, particularly if you're running epics, but you lose:
-UMD
-possible trap skills
-Wis to AC (and therefore probably give up meaningful pre-epic AC)
-more Reflex, more Will (monk nets you an increase here)

I just don't see the allure in this case.

[grodon9999]

Ranger6/Fighter12/Rogue(or Monk)2 is an awesome setup if you want to mix classes. better DPS and tons of hitpoints, you loose the spells and aren't as self-sufficient.

[Sweyn]

You gain nothing at ranget 12 except for 1 to-hit, 1 shield bonus to ac, +1 more ac on your barkskin... that's it really. Many people get sucked in to "Tier 2 pre of tempest!!" But it really is not that great...

If you want to make a melee dps ranger, include atleast 18 lvl's.

Altho i know some who go something like 11 ranger/6 fighter/ 3 pally, for a little better saves, free TWF ect, that may be a fun build for you

[Pithrin]

What are you actually gaining here, and at what cost?

Fighter 8 Kensia gains +4 damage/swing, +3 to-hit.
Rogue 1 gains +1d6+3 damage/swing (without aggro, or vs. blinded).

So, the 1 level of rogue (Exploiter) nets you more DPS vs. a lot of stuff, less vs. others, and none vs. yet another group, while the fighter's 8 levels gets you a more consistent DPS and attack increase. That's not bad, particularly if you're running epics, but you lose:
-UMD
-possible trap skills
-Wis to AC (and therefore probably give up meaningful pre-epic AC)
-more Reflex, more Will (monk nets you an increase here)

I just don't see the allure in this case.

Also gaining FTR STR II; FTR Toughness III and the FTR feats but I do acknowledge that I'm giving up a lot of versatility from the 18/1/1.

My Dwf DA build doesn't have his Mnk lvl or T3 yet so I haven't yet seen the full glory of the 18/1/1 build. (I'm lvling this alt w/ a family member that doesn't play all that much).

However, if I run the same 18/1/1 build w/ my Human when I take my Mnk lvl I'll still get Wis to AC benefit and centered +1 bonus even if I'm wearing armor and not using Mnk weapons?

[blitzschlag]

However, if I run the same 18/1/1 build w/ my Human when I take my Mnk lvl I'll still get Wis to AC benefit and centered +1 bonus even if I'm wearing armor and not using Mnk weapons?

you get wis to ac bonus wether you are centered or not. still you only get the centered bonus when you are centered (obviously).

personally i'd rather go

12 ftr (kensai II + powersurge is really worth it)
6 ranger (well tempest I + 2 favored enemies + rams might)
and either
2 rogue (evasion + umd + sneakattack stuff + balance)
or
2 monk (evasion + extra feats + wis to ac)

or

12 ftr
7 rog
1 mnk

this build has insane dps against sneak/critable targets and can have full rogue-skills too.

both builds need 17 dex (incl. tome) for full twf chain however.

personally i'd favor the latter one. but thats just a matter of playstyle/taste.

[Pithrin]

Ranger6/Fighter12/Rogue(or Monk)2 is an awesome setup if you want to mix classes. better DPS and tons of hitpoints, you loose the spells and aren't as self-sufficient.

Seeing what little T2 brings to the table. I think this build is more in line with what I was hoping to accomplish. I was in error with 12/8 when a 3 class split like this will still round out the character.

Since I already have the Dwf DA 18/1/1 in the works I was trying to find a slightly different path that would still be effective.

Will need to pull up the Character planner and figure out what the enhancements Dex/Toughness/Str look like for this build so I can see it for myself.

T1/K2 and a Rog or Mnk splash. : 2 lvls of Rog for UMD and sneak attack and some skills or 2 Mnk for AC benefit (both w/ evasion). I'm guessing it's a matter of player preference on which way to go w/ your 2 lvl splash. I don't think either class brings much on the second lvl except for evasion (but yeah, it's evasion!). The UMD still won't be all that easy to come by with the majority of lvls in FTR and the few skill points that they get. Will look at late game gear and try and figure out what AC potential is w/ this build.

I still want to be STR based but will need to meet the Dex reqs for the TWF line since I'll be picking the rest of these up w/ FTR lvls.

With Rgr 6 and the loss of spells WIS isn't as important unless I try and go 2 Mnk

Anything else I overlooked?

[Pithrin]

you get wis to ac bonus wether you are centered or not. still you only get the centered bonus when you are centered (obviously).

personally i'd rather go

12 ftr (kensai II + powersurge is really worth it)
6 ranger (well tempest I + 2 favored enemies + rams might)
and either
2 rogue (evasion + umd + sneakattack stuff + balance)
or
2 monk (evasion + extra feats + wis to ac)

or

12 ftr
7 rog
1 mnk

this build has insane dps against sneak/critable targets and can have full rogue-skills too.

both builds need 17 dex (incl. tome) for full twf chain however.

personally i'd favor the latter one. but thats just a matter of playstyle/taste.

What's the lvl breakdown (when do you take each lvl) for the 12/7/1 if you don't mind.

[Pithrin]

You gain nothing at ranget 12 except for 1 to-hit, 1 shield bonus to ac, +1 more ac on your barkskin... that's it really. Many people get sucked in to "Tier 2 pre of tempest!!" But it really is not that great...

If you want to make a melee dps ranger, include atleast 18 lvl's.

Altho i know some who go something like 11 ranger/6 fighter/ 3 pally, for a little better saves, free TWF ect, that may be a fun build for you

Have a Dwf (now bank char) that was 3 Rog/3 Pally/6 Ftr way back when 12 was cap. He WAS a lot of fun and the auras and fear/disease immunity worked out well.

?: Does anyone know which is faster: T3 or Mnk w/ Ultimate Wind stance. I know T3 gets the extra swing but what's the comparison on swings per minute and DPS. (I have a recently capped Mnk but have yet to do a comparison in game).

[blitzschlag]

What's the lvl breakdown (when do you take each lvl) for the 12/7/1 if you don't mind.

i'd start with

rog
ftr
ftr
mnk

this way the impact of the 3/4 bab classes rog and mnk aren't so bad early on. then be sure to do a lvl of rog regularly so you can keep up the important skills like umd and balance.

[tkneip1874]

i have tr'd a 20 twf ftr into a 12 ftr/6 rgr/ 2 rog and i am very happy with it. he is alot more versatile with umd. (has like a 75% recon scroll without swapping items around) i decided to go 2 rog instead of 2 monk for umd, evasion and sa although monk will give u 2 more feats and i think +3 extra will and fort save.

[LordPiglet]

i have tr'd a 20 twf ftr into a 12 ftr/6 rgr/ 2 rog and i am very happy with it. he is alot more versatile with umd. (has like a 75% recon scroll without swapping items around) i decided to go 2 rog instead of 2 monk for umd, evasion and sa although monk will give u 2 more feats and i think +3 extra will and fort save.

I'm considering doing a tr on my 17/2 ranger/rogue into one of the 12/6/2 once she gets to 20 (maybe this weekend) and my exploiter gets to 16 or so. It looks like a fun build and 2 more points can go a long way in it.

[Chai]

I would shoot for tempest 1 kensai 2 before going tempest 2 kensai 1.

The popular build here is 12 fighter 6 ranger 2 rogue.

Features include:

2 favored enemies
jump and rams might
full ranks in rogue skills for traps
kensai 2 str burst
10% haste from tempest 1
full on UMD for self healing + buffing - getting this to 40 for no fail heal scrolls and GH is little to no effort.
Hide, move silently, balance, tumble, all class skills.
manyshot and bow str.

[Deathseeker]

If you do want to go Ranger 12, I run a Rgr 12 / Ftr 6 / Monk 2 and love it. But from a dps standpoint it doesnt hold up to the monster build. But I went max AC dex build so its not really an apples/apples comparison.

Aside from the small benefits of tempest 2 (very small), Rgr 12 helps with favored enemy, better barkskin, 30 pt resists, etc. Very helpful if you run small pugs or solo. For raids...not so much.

I went with Rgr 12 / Ftr 6 instead of Rgr 18 for the feats so I could use halfling dragonmarks. Again, unless you have a somewhat specific non-dps related desire, rgr 12 / ftr 6 is probably inferior to the rgr 18 in terms of dps due to the extra attack.

If you go with Rgr 12, make sure its because you are looking at benefits beyond just dps. If you are looking for dps, Ftr 12 is the way to go, for sure.

[Chai]

Have a Dwf (now bank char) that was 3 Rog/3 Pally/6 Ftr way back when 12 was cap. He WAS a lot of fun and the auras and fear/disease immunity worked out well.

?: Does anyone know which is faster: T3 or Mnk w/ Ultimate Wind stance. I know T3 gets the extra swing but what's the comparison on swings per minute and DPS. (I have a recently capped Mnk but have yet to do a comparison in game).

I think t3 ranger prob outs the monk in dps -vs- living mobs not necessarily due to speed, but due to crits. A khopesh being x3 or a scimitar / rapier awesome crit range both put down better numbers than the x2 20 crit of fists. Fists on the other hand do better base damage so against 100% fort mobs fists probably win unless there is some other condition being applied - like DR #/slash for example.

I have played both classes. I think the speeds are very similar. One might slightly edge the other out but not by that much.