When to pull out during blades

[Bacab]

So I did a PUG Shroud today on my Favored Soul, and DPS was really poor.

We had 3 or 4 portal keepers in part 1.

BUT! I was itching to complete my Concord Opp Goggles, so I stuck it out.

Part 2 was kinda scary but we got it done (had to kill Fire twice).

Part 3 was smooth.

Part 4....we wiped.
*Now here is where the discussion/advice enters the picture.
Before we start part 4; I let everyone know (since I am the healer) we would be getting out of the blades due to the horrible lag that run and due to lack of DPS (I did not mention the DPS, just wanted to allow people to keep their pride).
*Well we handle the trash just fine and Harry drops in. Everything is going slowly, but smoothly. Not letting anyone die...and the blades start closing in......and getting closer...and closer...
*Harry is at about 50% mind you when the blades are in...so it is obvious that this is NOT A ONE ROUNDER.
*The Raid Leader over voice chat says "Let's stay in the blades"
*All of a sudden...everyone is dead...lag...can not cure...death...
*only people left are me, an Arcane Caster and the other Favored Soul.
*The Caster then puts up a DDoor, which we take and exit.
*To this the "leader" blames us (healers) for not healing.
*I mention that their was really bad lag, and DPS was really poor.
*The leader then says "DPS was fine"
*I did not want to argue so I dropped and logged off and did some Real LIfe errands...came back later and did a shroud with a buddy, and then some Amrath Quests.



NOW the question...

If lag is horrid, and DPS is super poor (4 portal keepers in part 1 and Harry at 50% at end of "Round 1" or part 4), you generally get out of blades, correct?

Am I way off on this thinking?

BTW I did try to "Heal through the blades", but the lag spike crushed that tactic on this run.

I totally get the whole "Raid/party leader being in charge" thing too, but also please defer to more experienced players when they offer advice. You should not have to chug SP pots to do the Shroud on Normal...

[Lleren]

Thier Raid, thier Rules.
But a Raid Leader that ignores the "healers" concerns cannot be adequately described on these boards.

[taurean430]

In any Shroud I've healed in so far, the party leader left it up to the healing classes to assert whether to stay in the blades or pull out. It is the leader's run however, and it's their decision regarding getting out of the blades or staying in ultimately. My initial thoughts though lead me to believe that this was a new leader to Shroud runs. Maybe they hadn't seen better dps than what your group had; and therefore lacked perspective. Hard to say really.

In party wipes, the first person that people go all out on is the healer(s). This doesn't sound like anything new. I'd just put my thick skin on and be frank about the dps issue and leave it at that. Sorry that happened though. I've been in some runs that didn't make it. Difference was that the party leader, and others knew the dps was lacking. So no chastise the healer action there.

In light of other posts I've read and things I've experienced myself, I'd wonder about the hitpoint situation regarding the other members of the party. At least, that seems reasonable.

[epochofcrepuscule]

Thier Raid, thier Rules.
But a Raid Leader that ignores the "healers" concerns cannot be adequately described on these boards.

Oh they can be adequately described. Unless by "on these boards" you mean it getting locked or deleted.

To the OP, if a raid leader says dps is fine after the fact in part 1. That is your cue. Also, I have em stay in blades no matter what... makes no difference to me, i can heal through em on my own. Thats what the 2nd cleric is for, round 2.

Also, no, you shouldnt drink SP pots. Although, since it sounds like a pug raid... you never know, could be 30 sp pots you have to drink.

[Krag]

My experience screams NEVER to pull out.
Good group doesn't need thes maneuver. Poor group can't execute it properly. Regardless whether you use mic or types it there will be a fool(s) who will disregard your directions and stay. Others will scatter like flies making futile all your attempts to keep them alive. Harry will go insane and blast squishy clerics and casters who believe 200+ hp are for the melees.

[Dunklerlindwurm]

You did nothing wrong.

If everyone agreed before Phase 4 that you dont stay inside blades because you cant do it in 1 round (and lag is bad too) then everyone should do so.

Looks like the leader of your group was just a bad leader and/or has never played a healer in shroud.

Another thing is really the bad lag in Part 4 and 5. If you are Healer you will notice it the most. Sometimes the group doesnt take any damage for 10 seconds or even longer..then suddenly lots of people are dead/near dead.
Not your fault though

[Krag]

Another thing is really the bad lag in Part 4 and 5. If you are Healer you will notice it the most. Sometimes the group doesnt take any damage for 10 seconds or even longer..then suddenly lots of people are dead/near dead.
Not your fault though

On the contrary. On a healer I barely notice the lag. As long as I keep spamming heals only low hp squishies die.
When I play my melee bard (over 550hp in Harry-beating mode, 20% healing amplification, evasion) I die 50% of the time along with all other melees. Healers always insist it was lag that killed us.

[Lleren]

Oh they can be adequately described. Unless by "on these boards" you mean it getting locked or deleted.

Locked/Deleted/Infraction points, your choice really.

[Kepli_Moonshadow]

Bacab, did you remember to put your mass healz in yer hotbar?



Just kidding.....eeeeeeasy killer- I am on the flipside of the frustration. When I'm on Harry, as a DPS, I watch only one thing- HIS health. Not mine. Not the "leader guy". If I'm slashing kneecaps, and it GETS to a point that we need to back out of the blades, I can twitch out ok- but it seems as of late there is nobody that is watching/communicating when that point arises. It's hard for me to believe that in the last 5 shroud's I've run, I'm the ONLY ONE that knows this tactic? CAN'T be. Just can't. I refuse to believe it.

Especially since we have the conversation before going in...... *sighs*

[taurean430]

On the contrary. On a healer I barely notice the lag. As long as I keep spamming heals only low hp squishies die.
When I play my melee bard (over 550hp in Harry-beating mode, 20% healing amplification, evasion) I die 50% of the time along with all other melees. Healers always insist it was lag that killed us.

Part of the issue may have been attributable to the two healers healing simultaneously, as opposed to in succession.

Harry hit's the building; primary healer gets the go. Primary healer is low spellpoints, Secondary healer kicks in.

I was taught that there was to be a rotation of duties. Not two healers burning mana simultaneously?

[UltraMonk2]

I usually lead shrouds so these are some of things I do in Part 4 and Part 5.

- If I'm on my melee I call out over voice chat the percentage that Harry is at, 75%, 50%, 25%, 10%, 5%. This gives an indication to the clerics and casters on how well the dps is doing against Harry and they can adjust accordingly. eg casters can mana dump on Harry if the dps is doing well.

- I always stay in for blades, if the healers are the poor kind I will get the 2nd healer to start healing the group when the blades start coming in. I tell people to not pull out at all and keep going. Some still decide to though and bite the dust because of it.

- If I'm on my healer I usually take first round of healing, telling everyone to stay in for blades. I usually have enough SP to take care of the beginning of healing on the 2nd round as well.

- Get a caster or healer to refresh Mass Prot every now and again. It helps immensely, preferably make it come from a caster.

- Spam Mass Cure Light, Mass Cure Mod, etc. If necessary the 2nd round healer can cast a Mass Heal if required.

- Focus heals on a player that suffers very little lag, it means the heals will succeed just about all the time.

[Lorien_the_First_One]

My experience screams NEVER to pull out.
Good group doesn't need thes maneuver. Poor group can't execute it properly. Regardless whether you use mic or types it there will be a fool(s) who will disregard your directions and stay. Others will scatter like flies making futile all your attempts to keep them alive. Harry will go insane and blast squishy clerics and casters who believe 200+ hp are for the melees.

Agreed, staying in is the right thing 99% of the time. With Harry at 50% it would have been possible to make it a 2 rounder so it was definately worth staying in to make sure it wasn't 3. Most people pull out wrong and it causes death and more sp usage.

The reality is when lag hits you can lose everyone in shroud 4 no matter what you do, but the OP doesn't mention what action the healers took to reduce the death risk (overlapping heals for example).

[Ota]

if its laggy it is usually better to have the group stay in then to back out regardless of how bad dps is. how many HP did the player your heals were centered on have sounds like that might have been problem if you were focused on someone squishy and they died your masses would switch to centered on you (and you wouldnt notice cause of lag) always put heals on highest HP character typically.

[Bacab]

well there was a good 10 seconds of nothing happening...then when the "game" caught up...9 out of 12 were dead

I was wanting to pull out of blades more/less because of the lag and DPS...I link DPS to a toons HP. It was really obvious as from the other parts that most of the characters in this shroud were newer toons/players. I do not use MYDDO, but if I had to guess, I would say maybe 2-4 of the melees were breaking DR and were decently geared.

It is entirely possible that the Barb that was my target (and I keep "healing" through lag) died and then the cures would auto-target to me.

At the end of part 1, the lag was super noticable (moreso than usual).

As much as I absolutely HATE the "Hero" method...this was a party that most likely would have benefited from using it.

Also I solo heal shrouds very often, and never have a problem...but this group just felt like I was taking a wet noodle to a gun fight. I understand that its a risk everytime you PUG, but usually you get a *few* geared toons/players to even out the new toons.

Also another question...is it ok to drop group in a shroud after say part 1 if it is really really really obvious that its doomed? Baisically say, "This is not going to work for me, maybe we should regroup". Though what I really mean is "I refuse to drink 15 SP pots and use 50 heal scrolls to do a shroud on normal."

In that regards, how about a VoD or Hound? You know the groups...3 people ask where the quest is. A few people dont have feather fall on and eat a few meteor swarms to the face in the first 20 seconds in the sub...then people repeatedly fall down/kill the tiefling rangers. Or for the hound...you run out of SP before even getting to the Hermit Beholder (due lack of DPS to kill renders and stuff).

Maybe I should have trusted my gut feeling, but I also do not want to "give up" on a group.

[Zombiekenny]

Also another question...is it ok to drop group in a shroud after say part 1 if it is really really really obvious that its doomed? Baisically say, "This is not going to work for me, maybe we should regroup". Though what I really mean is "I refuse to drink 15 SP pots and use 50 heal scrolls to do a shroud on normal."

In that regards, how about a VoD or Hound? You know the groups...3 people as where the quest is. A few people dont have feather fall on and eat a few meteor swarms to the face in the first 20 seconds in the sub...then people repeatedly fall down/kill the tiefling rangers. Or for the hound...you run out of SP before even getting to the Hermit Beholder (due lack of DPS to kill renders and stuff).

In my opinion, its not really acceptable to drop once its started. If I am on my cleric, and it is going bad off the bat I just get ticked at myself for not checking my-ddos and dropping before we started moving.
I will not however drink any pots to pull a group through shroud, and rarely will do so in other raids, the exception being if it looks like one pot will make the difference between completing and not completing. Heal scrolls I burn through like crazy though.

[petegunn]

I only pull out for noobs professionals I go snorkel deep until the climax, then its sweet release and onto part 5

[Pyromaniac]

You never pull out. Don't believe it when someone tells you pulling out is a good idea.

[Morningfrost]

[Kepli_Moonshadow]

omglmaostopithurts O M G

[TheDjinnFor]

"When to pull out..."

Yes, indeed, that is the question.