Legendary Items, and endgame addition...

[The_Ick]

So there is a pretty lengthy thread on the boards about Epic quests and end game “things to do”. I am sure I am not the first to bring this up, but I figured it might be a good time to put it back out in front since Turbine might be looking at the end game.

A while back they released something called Legendary Items in LOTRO. I don’t know too much about the implementation other to the couple blurbs I have read on the MMO sites. This line from a www.Massively.com article really caught my eye.

These weapons will be something like a living part of your character, almost like a companion. These items will gain experience points with you and can be upgraded by your character.
~Massively…

Now I don’t know how exactly they were implemented or how successful they where in LOTRO, but I think this would make a great end game idea for DDO. This game is so loot driven and there is so little to do once you have capped and equipped your toon, I really think it would be a perfect fit. If you could grind out a “Legendary” weapon or item of your choice and then use epic quests (or even regular quests) to level the item. It would make the quests worth running again at cap. Not to mention it would put a fairly sizable time sink into the game for players at end game.

Instead of grinding out ingredients to craft the weapon, we could use Epic quest XP. This concept could even be applied Pallys Holy Sword, maybe give it to them earlier then the other classes. As you level up your Legendary Item, you would select feats and/or enhancements just like a toon would. Feats or enhancements could be derived from anything and everything in the game, including but not limited too:

• Existing magical effects you would find on items (+6 stat, greater false life, fearsome, etc…)
• Existing magical effects you would find on weapons (greater banes, bursts, lightning strike, etc…)
• High level Spells (Arcane & Divine) x times per day (Heal, barkskin, teleport, etc…)
• Existing character feats (weapon proficiencies, toughness, mental toughness, possibly evasion, etc…)
• Existing Character Enhacement Lines

Some of the more powerful feats could be broken into Improved & Greater so they would cost multiple levels. Of cource not every feat, spell, etc.. in the game could be adapted, but a lot of them could. Really the list is endless. As they add feats, magical abilities, and spells to the game, weapons could also gain the benefit. Obviously some effects and feats would have level requirements, just like now. Noevasion on a level 1 weapon or itme, that would be a level 15+ addition.

I know this could get over powered, but understand when I say level up I am thinking the XP grind would be pretty much what it is for leveling a toon if not more, but nothing says we even have to stop at 20, or 1 item per toon. Really this is an endless timesink that would allow further customization and uniqueness of characters using all the bits and pieces we already have in the game. But it would be a time sink that people would really buy into because it could make for some extraordinary toon builds.

Now will not pretend that this would be a small undertaking on Turbines part, but being as all of the effects pull from existing effects in the game, it must lesson the development to some degree. Even if only at the design & planning stage. While I am sure there are positives and negatives to this idea (as all ideas) I really think this would be a strong and expandable addition to the game.

Possible enhancement:: The cherry on top of the cake would be if we could somehow design the item look ourselves or at least select from the existing item looks in the game so far.

Well that is my suggestion…

[elgranmago13]

I don't think that any LOTRO converts will agree with this, as Legendary Items there were implemented horribly. Huge grind to find the right weapon type, for your class and level (class and level are restricted, type doesn't matter anymore except for 1H vs 2H... but who wants a legendary dagger?). There are also 3 tiers of legendary items, that get better enhancemets at a much greater cost. The kicker is that all effects are completely random: You could get a top tier weapon with worthless bonuses. Then, after you have leveled them up all the way, grinding for different socket items and scrolls to change/enhance your bonuses, they raise the level cap and your weapon of uberness is gimped and you have to start all over.

The reason it might work in DDO is that in LOTRO weapon DPS is based on weapon level, not a standard die number as in DDO. The random effects on the weapons seems similar to a crafting system in DDO that it sounds like everyone loves , and I wouldn't recommend that.

So, implemented correctly it could be fun. If done like LOTRO, no thank you.

[Symar-FangofLloth]

Greensteel and Dragontouched aren't enough of a grind already?

Oh, everyone uses them in LotRO. Because post-50 skills and stats barely increase, so you have to use the bonuses from Legendary weapons to keep up to date.
They've added some more customness to them since they first came out, but doing that is an entirely different grind on the side.

I think the existing crafting is already very similar to LotRO's system; at least DT armor is.

[The_Ick]

Greensteel and Dragontouched aren't enough of a grind already?

Oh, everyone uses them in LotRO. Because post-50 skills and stats barely increase, so you have to use the bonuses from Legendary weapons to keep up to date.
They've added some more customness to them since they first came out, but doing that is an entirely different grind on the side.

I think the existing crafting is already very similar to LotRO's system; at least DT armor is.

I don't think greensteal is a grind, but i am guessing you where joking... I do think dragon touched is, but that is due to the random nature of the effects. (I just got done grinding 60+ eldrtich runes to get +5 resist)

I would assume they would learn from any implimentation problems they ran into the first time around. I have never put any serious time into LOTRO so i don't know much about that side.

The key to whole thing is that the items would level up like toons. So you ultimatly build whatever you want. Really this isn't much different from greensteel with 2 key differences.

1. You would use XP rather then ingredients to improve items
2. (And this is really the kicker) they would impliment as much of the current effects in the game as they could. Including, feats, spells, and magical effects (i.e. there would be A LOT more options)

[SisAmethyst]

... well, something like Lilarcor the chaotic blood thirsdy blade that insult the weilder to actualy kill something would be cool

However back to topic, there are already existing designs for Weapons that level:
e.g. 'Bloodcrier's Hammer' that needs 3 Rituals to be made on to unlock the abilities. That may be as like in the new House Deneith Quests where you have to collect 3 gems, or something like the Silver Flame Trinklet or as complicated as Shroud crafting. While I would prefer the middle one as you still have to level that weapon.

PS: At least the ones in the D&D books have a fixed set of abilities that just get unloked by leveling up. For example that Warhammer will automatically become +4 at level 14 or at level 15 give a +2 resistance bonus.

[Ashurr]

Or perhaps the Legacy weapon system from the 3e book "Weapons of Legacy"

Legacy weapons are unique weapons that have been forged or used by legendary beings, and are themselves unique in regards to gameplay in that their magical abilities start out locked. Unlocking them requires some sort of sacrifice on the part of the wielder, in varying amounts, referred to as least legacy, lesser legacy, and greater legacy, in order from worst to best.

The sacrifices required vary with each weapon, but they include some sort of permanent reduction in a player's abilities, i.e. loss of maximum hit points, permanent penalties to certain skills or abilities, etc. These penalties end when the wielder forswears the weapon.

If a wielder of a legacy weapon defeats the wielder of a different legacy weapon or artifact with it in combat, the winning legacy weapon inherits an ability from the defeated foe's legacy weapon/artifact.


If the used the weapons in the book not much grinding would be necessary, as there are only two weapons that require the wielder to find additional parts to the weapon to gain more abilities.


The user also only gains access to higher level Legacy weapon abilities as the char levels AND takes the appropriate feat AND fulfills the weapons quest pre-req's for that level of ability.

Basically, we could diminish the games over-inflated economy ( less demand for certain weapons), give people a reason to Pvp ( ganking weapon abilities from the defeated) and open up a LOT of new content. And they would be self-limiting, as a lot of players wouldn't want the drawbacks.

[Cyr]

Uhh, I played LOTRO. Legendary items were horribly done. They were like the reaver's refuge lotto *10.

/not signed unless DDO does them 100% differently

[Fomori]

My first thought is that the issue with "things to do" is the artificial concept of "end game" that has become prevalent in the MMO community. I realize that most people see it as a simple way of referring to capping out current content but I think that it has evolved into more over time.

Since people expect new content to come out for the game they play, and especially for characters of the current maximum level, the game really never ends. There are simply points of stagnation to your progression. The problem comes in that when the level cap is increased the powergamers are very quick to reach that new plateau, and since they they do so in short fashion, they spent lots of time looking for things to do until the next new content release. What then happens is the game developers feel the need to give the powergamers something to do between the releases, so they keep paying the monthly subscription, and this is where "grinding for items" starts.

Since they need to peak the powergamers interests they make the items they can grind for vastly better than the standard items, since why grind for somethng that only makes you a little better. Now, since these items could potentially break the regular content and speed up people getting to level cap, we make it so that you have to be capped to start going after these items.

This system works all fine and dandy UNTIL the next new content update. This usually raises the level cap and adds things for higher leveled players to do. Now, the hardcore players have various levels of this last "end game" gear. Thus either the developers need to scale the difficulty level up of the new content or force the powergamers to speed though it even faster than would be expected. Also, they need to add a new grind, for the "new end game", for those to do until the next content update.

Rinse and repeat for a few years of content...

At this point, since you have to keep adding new bigger and better items to the game to keep the playerbase hooked, the beginning items and content pale in comparison. Thus as you add new players to your playerbase they see what they start with, and what they can eventually get, and the beginning parts of the game then seem like a chore they have to wade through to get to where they want... At this point all they want to do is get to max level to be able to start collecting "the good stuff". Once this happens the concept of "end game" changes from meaning level cap to simply "the start of the game" for most players.

[SquelchHU]

Since they need to peak the powergamers interests they make the items they can grind for vastly better than the standard items, since why grind for somethng that only makes you a little better. Now, since these items could potentially break the regular content and speed up people getting to level cap, we make it so that you have to be capped to start going after these items.

Have you seen the last example of content that requires capped characters? Yeah, with a few exceptions you are expected to grind for something that only makes you a little better.

By the way, legacy weapons make you worse for having them. We don't need any more Pale Masters, thanks.

[Montrose]

I played LotRO for awhile and capped out 3 characters back when the cap was 60. The LI system was bunk.

Getting a good LI basically required you to grind mobs or quests over and over to get tokens that you would trade in for LI (or, rarely, a mob would drop an item). Then you would take the items to go get identified to see what abilities they had.

Each ability had a level from 1 -6 that affected how easy it was to make the ability better. The abilities and their levels were random. For any given class there were usually 3 or 4 good abilities (called "legacies") and about 8 or 9 mediocre to terrible ones.

LIs could be made stronger by gaining item experience. This was done through quests or by finding little blue discs that gave out item experience. You could raise a LI up to a maximum level of 60 or so, depending on the quality of the item.

Every 20th level you got a new legacy. The game would pick two at random and you'd apply one of them. Every 10th level you could raise the level of an existing legacy.

So it was basically a huge gamble. If your weapon started out with 2 good legacies and 1 bad one you could spend a huge amount of time levelling it up and hoping that you got the legacies you wanted or you could dump the weapon and go back to square 1.

Eventually Turbine realized that it took forever to level the items and instituted bounty quests. These quests gave out an insane amount of item experience and thus everyone quickly obtained multiple max-level LI.

It was a horrible, broken system. Please, let's not repeat it.

[winsom]

Legendary items in LOTRO are very cool.

As end-game time sinks go, I feel that this is a pretty good one. It is nice that earning exp at level cap can still be useful = item experience. I had been looking for that mechanic to return to MMOs ever since Everquest 1 did it with thier "alternate advancement" system.

I enjoy LOTRO legendary item system more than DDO's Shroud looting+crafting mechanics.

Uhh, I played LOTRO. Legendary items were horribly done. They were like the reaver's refuge lotto *10

I didn't play with the "original" version of the Moria Legendary Item advancement system. I guess there are some benefits waiting about year before playing it

The current system is set-up such that the random property generator is very likely to give out the "most wanted" properties at level 1 when the item is first identified. In this way you do not need to spend time leveling up an item trying to get a more powerful property. If you do not get one of the "better powers" you should scrap the current item and find another one at level 1 (not very hard at all). or you might take it to 10th to see the next addition, but no further than 11th if you are not happy with it !

I have found that the level 10 upgrade also has a good chance of adding one of the best legendary powers. It takes very little time, or no time for veterans, to level a new legendary item to 10th. If you don't like your item by 10th, you soon scrap it and start over. This IS a "grind" but it is not controlled by lengthy raid-locks or anything of the sort like DDO would do. For most people there will be no limiting timer other than the time it takes you to find the legendary loot. If you character is also top tier crafter you can generate a new legendary item every 1 week. If you like to do raids with LOTROs 24 hour timer, you can gain another legendary item every 4 days. The one you can get from a raid is technically better than the random non-raid loot, but not enough of a difference that people only value the raid loot. The crafted very is very good by comparison and those can be bought from the auction house if you do not know anyone to make you one.

One of the better features of the LOTRO legendary system is that ALL legendary items are worth something. If you do not like the random results you scrap it and use the parts in the next item,, and the next one, and so on. When you scrap a legendary item you can also get back a significant fraction of the experience you put into it so you can add that to your newer item. If you dont like that newer item you scrap it and take all of the relics and some of the exp and start again.. We only WISH that were possible with Shroud or Refuge items in DDO.

[The_Ick]

My first thought is that the issue with "things to do" is the artificial concept of "end game" that has become prevalent in the MMO community. I realize that most people see it as a simple way of referring to capping out current content but I think that it has evolved into more over time.

Since people expect new content to come out for the game they play, and especially for characters of the current maximum level, the game really never ends. There are simply points of stagnation to your progression. The problem comes in that when the level cap is increased the powergamers are very quick to reach that new plateau, and since they they do so in short fashion, they spent lots of time looking for things to do until the next new content release. What then happens is the game developers feel the need to give the powergamers something to do between the releases, so they keep paying the monthly subscription, and this is where "grinding for items" starts.

Since they need to peak the powergamers interests they make the items they can grind for vastly better than the standard items, since why grind for somethng that only makes you a little better. Now, since these items could potentially break the regular content and speed up people getting to level cap, we make it so that you have to be capped to start going after these items.

This system works all fine and dandy UNTIL the next new content update. This usually raises the level cap and adds things for higher leveled players to do. Now, the hardcore players have various levels of this last "end game" gear. Thus either the developers need to scale the difficulty level up of the new content or force the powergamers to speed though it even faster than would be expected. Also, they need to add a new grind, for the "new end game", for those to do until the next content update.

Rinse and repeat for a few years of content...

At this point, since you have to keep adding new bigger and better items to the game to keep the playerbase hooked, the beginning items and content pale in comparison. Thus as you add new players to your playerbase they see what they start with, and what they can eventually get, and the beginning parts of the game then seem like a chore they have to wade through to get to where they want... At this point all they want to do is get to max level to be able to start collecting "the good stuff". Once this happens the concept of "end game" changes from meaning level cap to simply "the start of the game" for most players.

While I agree with the theory of what you are saying, I don't know that it falls true for DDO because of 1 main difference. There is no indication that we will go over level 20 any time soon or at all, which means that there might never be any further XP gain. Obviously that can change, but there has really only been indications to the contrary. That was part of my thinking when I starting working out the idea. Since we won’t likely be leveling toons, why not grow our toons via another mechanism.

And really, since there is no guarantee how this game with advance it’s “end game”, that is even more a reason to implement a system like this that could adapt either way. If the level cap is increased, then the level cap for the “legendry items” could grow too. If it doesn’t and they just add more effects, just add them as options. Really the “legendary” item would just be a way to extend your characters grown without loosing what you have already.

Without knowing the future of DDO, it is impossible to come up with a solution that will fit every option. But since it doesn’t seem that XP will hold much of a value beyond level 20 I believe we need to come up with way to allow people to continue to develop their toons. Moving forward is what keeps people motivated to play MMOs. I think the current Epic solution is just isn’t going to cut the mustard in the long term.. I am seeing people loose interest already.

[Noctus]

Have you seen the last example of content that requires capped characters? Yeah, with a few exceptions you are expected to grind for something that only makes you a little better.

By the way, legacy weapons make you worse for having them. We don't need any more Pale Masters, thanks.

True.
In Pen&Paper legacy weapons are cr*p. Their drawbacks makes an otherwise nice idea unworkable.


And if they have the idea to introduce any crafting that is like the Dragontouched Armors, i wont even touch it with a pair of hot-iron pincers. Ever.

I will never, ever equip any other character with DT armor ever again. I am totally burned out on this "idea" of a crafting process where half of the time after 2 or 3 hours of Refuge questing you are WORSE off then when you started this lottery.


Going backwards in an upgrading process is super motivating ....... NOT!.




In total:
Although this can be a nice idea, when implemented in a good way. If Turbine makes them anything close to DT crafting or Pen&Paper legacy weapons it will be just another ignored part of content for many, many players.

[sephiroth1084]

I always liked the idea of Legacy Weapons (from the book of the same name) from midway through the lifespan of 3.5, which seems to be what the Legendary Weapons are based on.

We're getting something like that with epic upgrades...

I had proposed a long time ago that all raids get scaled similarly to the way Devil Assault is treated, with Hard and Elite being 2-3 levels above the difficulty of Normal, and with tokens that drop in these harder difficulties that can be used to upgrade the Normal raid loot. Epic crafting is very similar to this, but pushes the top end to the extreme (level 20 only, much more difficult), and cuts out the middle upgrade.

The new items from the pirate quests also do something similar, giving us a mediocre base item, a way to upgrade them to an okay item, and then having an epic upgrade to make (presumably) very interesting items that are tied more strongly to your character. I think the individual effects on these are interesting, and have merit (the bastard sword plays off of both race and role, while some of the others play off of class), but were poorly implemented on the whole (a few items are good, a few suck, some have odd improvements, abilities or absence of improvements).

[Blank_Zero]

I always liked the idea of Legacy Weapons (from the book of the same name) from midway through the lifespan of 3.5, which seems to be what the Legendary Weapons are based on.

We're getting something like that with epic upgrades...

I had proposed a long time ago that all raids get scaled similarly to the way Devil Assault is treated, with Hard and Elite being 2-3 levels above the difficulty of Normal, and with tokens that drop in these harder difficulties that can be used to upgrade the Normal raid loot. Epic crafting is very similar to this, but pushes the top end to the extreme (level 20 only, much more difficult), and cuts out the middle upgrade.

The new items from the pirate quests also do something similar, giving us a mediocre base item, a way to upgrade them to an okay item, and then having an epic upgrade to make (presumably) very interesting items that are tied more strongly to your character. I think the individual effects on these are interesting, and have merit (the bastard sword plays off of both race and role, while some of the others play off of class), but were poorly implemented on the whole (a few items are good, a few suck, some have odd improvements, abilities or absence of improvements).

That really does sound like a good idea. It would keep the Raids more interesting than "OK, here's what you HAVE to do, or we all die." -or- "I've done this 94 times! Listen to me NOW!" Because honestly, who likes hearing that? Also, this game could use some lower level crafting for those of us who AREN'T powergaming through the lower levels just to get to 20 and start GS items. I know it would take time to code it all, but the end result would be a MUCH deeper gaming experience that EVERYONE could enjoy.

The idea behind the Sentinels items (crappy>ok>epic) is a good start, a **** good start. It's already made me start relooking at my toons' builds and what items to work towards.

All in all, a new crafting system is needed. The idea of weapon XP has been done, and been done well (look at the God of War series, or even Final Fantasy Tactics: Advance) where you have a base item, and you slowly upgrade it, choosing what to upgrade, and when, and slowly adding better abilities to your repetiore *sp*. This, in addition to Seph's "Scaling Raids" idea, would make this game go REALLY deep, and would keep a LOT of people happy for a LOT longer.

[Blank_Zero]

If A Wielder Of A Legacy Weapon Defeats The Wielder Of A Different Legacy Weapon Or Artifact With It In Combat, The Winning Legacy Weapon Inherits An Ability From The Defeated Foe's Legacy Weapon/artifact.

There Can Be Only One!!!

[Blank_Zero]

^^

[Blank_Zero]

bump

[Blank_Zero]

Bump cuz I've been in Basic for two months, so this has been buried =P