I understand everyones frustration

[Maugrim101]

The vet who joins a normal PUG expecting it to be the same as their experienced only group runs are just as bad as the new player who joins the "Experienced only" run and needs babysitting.

It's not so much about new players or vets, just some people not having a clue when it comes to adjusting playstlye to suit the group your in.

Can''t handle the average PUG, don't PUG. It's not rocket science.

[stainer]

The vet who joins a normal PUG expecting it to be the same as their experienced only group runs are just as bad as the new player who joins the "Experienced only" run and needs babysitting.

It's not so much about new players or vets, just some people not having a clue when it comes to adjusting playstlye to suit the group your in.

Can''t handle the average PUG, don't PUG. It's not rocket science.

I think you missed out on the whole conversation that the average pug has changed over time.

[DevKiller]

well, i could read 3 pages of posts here b4 posting what i want but i believe its best to give response to the post that started it all.

Alright, first of all, everyone who joins a mmo, must have the good sense of coming to forums firsthand, period, its not the ddo duty to MAKE everyone visit forum before they play. The homepage http://www.ddo.com/ that everyone visit for creating their account, has this cozy link named forum, and usually forum retain loads of info about the game (any 1 with common sense knows it), if not, the game guide itself, and ppl using it is up to them.

I never join a MMO before checking the forums, and why is that? because i know i need info on what builds for characters are available, and which fits my taste the best, the rest, well, i learn playing, because no matter how much you read it, the real knowledge comes from doing it, and even if you fail, you learned something.

ppl quiting the game just because "omg, loads of players dont know what they are doing" lol, good riddance, go find a better game then, because all games, MMO or whatever, have ppl who dont visit forum, or ppl who visit forum but still know little, and what you can do is to say "go to forums, loads of info there" or if you have patience, you teach them urself.


my point finally is, dont blame the game for ppl´s ignorance, blame them for being ignorant, no game will demmand you to access forum and read before play, its pure common sense, now its up to the players to have some. DDO did its part in having the forums there, and ****, even nom member people can access it to read, so saying lame **** like "its the game fault we have so many noobs" is just a dumb comentary from someone who doesnt know who to blame. DDO did its part, now its time to players do theirs

I think the key word is common sense, some have it and some don't.

I have been playing for 2 years and I must have rolled and rerolled my first toon 6 times before I got it to a place that I was happy, I first built my toon based on my pencil and paper knowledge from long ago and then I hit the forums and found the character planner. I read and read and read some more untill I understood not only the class I was playing but how the other clasees worked so I could fill my role within a group.

I pretty much solo up to level 8 or 10 now and it costs me a lot in pots but I have fun doing it and I have a few buddies when we are all the same level that we group with and aside for raids (only becasue we haven't tried yet) there is not much we cannot do on elite with 2 or 3 people.

My issue as a vet is that I don't play that much and the time I play I want to enjoy and I am more then happy to help new people along if that is what needs to be done so long as they listen or at least let the vets in the group know they haven't done it before. Problem is they do not listen or communicate in anyway shape or form and in the end the experience is not fun.

When I was coming up I got some good advice and some really bad advice from vets and I filtered the info and used what I needed. For example I was in a guild and the guild leader would refuse to do anything without a full group becasue she thought we would die, it took me leaving that guild to finally understand that if I have the right build and equipment elite is really not that bad.

Anyway for now I am staying and I will help where I can and when I don't feel like helping then I do it on my own or with buddies.

[Svartelric]

Being a so-called "veteran" doesn't mean jack. In the end it all comes down to common sense and sensibility, that is the ability to approach any quest/game feature/whatever with the humility and will to learn.
And that's something most vets forgot a long time ago, from some experiences I've had...
Some veterans are pricks, and screw up quests which would normally take few mins to finish; on the other hand there are really exceptional noobs who get things right on the first or second attempt.
What does that tell us?
Or is somebody implying that having played the game for a longer time makes a better gamer? Lol that.

[JOTMON]

There is a large influx newer players to the servers, many are familiar MMO players which is good and bad, since some are coming from other games where they were uber top end veterns coming to a new game as little fish in a new pond with 'I know a lot' attitudes.. Some are old school PnP thinking those rules apply as defined. Some bring new ideas, methods and fresh blood for the old tricks. ..

New players coming in don't have anything they are left to collecting coppers and starter heal pots from breakables etc..., using weapons that are not appropriate for a fight, no arrows for the bow.. Don't know the quest or where the traps are, don't know what enemy is around the corner. So as a vetern it is easy to run some of these quests because you are ready at every turn, have the appropriate weapon and buff.

When I first started I remember farming collectibles and AH goodies to generate cashflow, spending hours working low level quests to generate cashflow and low level goodies. High level quests were gruelling as a pug, Tempest spine I ran 8 times just trying to keep up. Never getting a chance to actually see where anything was. I remember coming across a couple of vetern players who actually took the time to give guided tours of some of these quests, guys like Chopsaw and Cyrouss on Argonessen were great pranksters but also gave pugs guided tour quests like the Subterrain and the Orchard to get all the names and explores.

I try to periodically head back to Korthos and give away lowbie goodies and give guided tours. I see a few other recognized players there from time to time. We have a lot of veterns who are cutting themselves off from the new blood because they are tired of noobs, the problem I see is If we are not showing the newbs, then we are leaving noobs to show the newbs. That makes it difficult for new players coming in to stay with the game or get to the point where they can be better players. Directing them to the forums for build feedback or general help.

I recently started leveling up a new toon another server just because I have that toon name on all the servers, a new server from scratch, and it brought me back to reality.. no capstone toon to handme down pots, scrolls, gear.. extra gold for whatever etc... pugged Delera's at level 5 with no PG weapons in the party, ran out of cure pots and wands. No money left for repairs... back to the harbor I went.... Felt like I was in a permadeath pug group, but had a blast.. Low level and challenging.

I recommend to all veterns to start a toon from scratch on snowyside Korthos and not giving him anything to start.
More challenging on a server you are not on to avoid the temptation to send anything or get anything from people you know.

[Maugrim101]

I think you missed out on the whole conversation that the average pug has changed over time.

Not really. It's the same old nonsance I see in any game. Certain players trying to put their lack of enjoyment of the game down to other people rather than ust accept that they are just burnt out. Been there, seen it, done it, nothing new to explore. The only thing left is to become a legend in their own lunchtime and lord it over the players who are going through the same process they went through when they began.

DDO is just the same as any other game in that regard.

[krud]

As a vet who has run in a lot of pugs with new players, I perceive most of the angst from vets is caused by their own impatience. Not all vets, just the ones that complain the most.
Newbs are getting two conflicting opinions from these vets:

"Newbs don't want to take the time to learn, read the forums, or follow instructions". In other words, "they aren't getting up to speed fast enough!"

yet... "Turbine made the game too easy for newbs". "It was harder for us in the old days".

So what do vets want from them? To get up to speed quicker, yet the game should be harder. In short, they want the game to be repopulated with players that are just like us vets.

Remember that the players that have stuck around this long are the dedicated ones. All the casual, semi-interested players left a while ago. Now the game is being repopulated with them all over again. Flashback to 2006. It wasn't all rosy back then either. There is bound to be lots of newbishness and lack of seriousness with any new population. In this case you just gotta let the kids be kids. They'll grow up sooner or later, just don't expect them to grow up faster than they should.

[vVAnjilaVv]

As a vet who has run in a lot of pugs with new players, I perceive most of the angst from vets is caused by their own impatience. Not all vets, just the ones that complain the most.
Newbs are getting two conflicting opinions from these vets:

"Newbs don't want to take the time to learn, read the forums, or follow instructions". In other words, "they aren't getting up to speed fast enough!"

yet... "Turbine made the game too easy for newbs". "It was harder for us in the old days".

So what do vets want from them? To get up to speed quicker, yet the game should be harder. In short, they want the game to be repopulated with players that are just like us vets.

Remember that the players that have stuck around this long are the dedicated ones. All the casual, semi-interested players left a while ago. Now the game is being repopulated with them all over again. Flashback to 2006. It wasn't all rosy back then either. There is bound to be lots of newbishness and lack of seriousness with any new population. In this case you just gotta let the kids be kids. They'll grow up sooner or later, just don't expect them to grow up faster than they should.

I agree with most of this with one major exception.....the game is being repopulated with a F2P crowd......this is a hugely different breed of player than the ones who had to pay up front.....and there is no disputing that.

[Disavowed]

I'm not trying to hijack this thread, good points have been made by many. But I think that Aussieee hits the bigger issue for vets leaving; the BS grinding that you have to do if you really want to keep up or run epic which is also a grind (ok, let's not make epic require more thinking, i.e. quest prep. Let's just make you grind on a gazillion HP MOB to make you feel uber).

If you look at some of Strak's comments on "leaving" (if he ever does ... oh the drama!) and many others, the endless grinding began with the Shroud and has only taken on more prominance as the game has gone forward.

I haven't run a Shroud on my cleric in over a year. Why? I think it is the only thing I ran on him for about 7-8 months straight after release. Hour after hour ...

Sorry Turbine, but I would rather shuck the whole "crafting" (which is your term for grinding) focus and replace it with all the different unique drops that you could have grind, er I mean crafted... Bind the drops to account and watch the interest soar from your vets ...

I will have to agree. I think the whole grinding thing started with Green Steel. Random drops bound to account sounds like a good idea.

[Chai]

The fact that new players dont know how to play as well as the vets is expected.

The fact that vets dont want to teach new players, but are more than willing to take MORE time to gripe about them than it would have taken to teach them is whats at fault here.

This post will likely be followed by a plethora of "I do teach and it still sucks" posts. This may be true or not, but there is still definately not enough teaching.

I still see way too many "vets only" and "know the quest" LFMs up.

If you are not willing to make your raid 5 minutes longer and teach newbs how to play, then you cant complain that newbs dont know how to play. This is the same mentality as not voting, then crying about the government every third day of the week.

The ratio of teachers -vs- gripers is what needs to be fixed. If you are not part of the solution then you are part of the problem, and are soon to be part of the precipitate, as you have only accomplished setting up the expectation to continually be disappointed by the outcome.

[vVAnjilaVv]

pffft...like voting makes a difference......government is a group of blind arrogant fools trying to control a world they will never control.

It's pretty hilarious watching them try...waste my time on following what they are doing....not here.

Governments will step on toes to try and control things...and karmas a bi***...I'd rather not be in that boat when it chooses to bite.

Don't be so naive...politicians all work together and laugh at the people they have convinced they are on opposing sides behind closed doors.....what better way to control people who have given up on free will and what they are truely entitled to. I guess that's the price you pay for convenince tho.

[Vuedoo]

For you Beerman,

My New Add-inn Rule for being Skunked in Beer Pong!.. Get skunked and either finish the four stacked beers or Wear them.

Sweet .... You Guys are an inspiration to me.

[Disavowed]

I still play and enjoy this game. Keep in mind I've never been in a guild in the 4 years I've played the game so there are very few people who have pugged as much as I have (keep in mind 6 months ago when I had more time I was playing 50-60 hours a week). I still enjoy teaching people that are willing to ask questions and listen. I still enjoy giving guided tours of Crucible, Madstone, Rainbow, etc. So I still very much enjoy the game.

Do I expect a new person to be able to keep up with me even when my toon doesn't have tweaked out gear. No I know where the quests are and what they hold. I still have $$ to make it so I can do things newbs can't ie buy csw wands instead of cmw wands. Thus I'm back in the fight faster etc.

But when I see the guild leader from a certain ranger academy in the Shruod who has 2 points con damage complain about it and not have pots to fix this I get frustrated. Come on you're a guild leader with a fair amount of people in it. You're in the Shroud and you don't even have lesser restore pots.

If youre running shroud and don't know this you're not taking advantage of the tools provided to make you a better player. The forums are the best tool available. I still think DDO doesn't do a good enough job at making this known.

I get the whole I rolled a gimp because it's my first toon thing. Hell, we all did. But it didn't take me until level 18 to realize it. Because I ran every quest on casual to get to level 18 thinking I'm a competent player. My first toons sucked. but I knew this by level 5-6. I asked a ton of questions from the guys who had been around. Lorich turned me on to the forums and it all got much easier.

Some of you might want to read this post closer. This wasn't a slam the noobs or pit vets vs. newbs rant. It was a statement that DDO wants all these new players and so do I for the most part. But DDO needs to better provide them with the tools to make them a better player. They need to advertise this as much as they advertise all the **** adventure packs and sales that they have going on. Right now they do very little to help the new player base learn the game other than give them an easy button. This doesn't teach them the game. It just gets them to higher levels with less competency. That's DDo's fault not the newbs fault.

So I see where the vets are getting frustrated. Be it from this or the grind either way they are getting frustrated. You don't see vets running pugs on there lowbies at all. They avoid it lie the plague. They'd rather solo than pug. In the past this would never happen. They can say that they don't like the grind but we grinded for years before. HOw long did we wait for the level caps from 10-16. Better yet 16-20 was a year of the same stuff no new quests at all. Yet everyone still stayed around and paid to do so. Why? Because it was still fun to kill off a toon and roll an new one. Pugs were fun back then. Now pugs are avoided.

[Disavowed]

The fact that new players dont know how to play as well as the vets is expected.

The fact that vets dont want to teach new players, but are more than willing to take MORE time to gripe about them than it would have taken to teach them is whats at fault here.

This post will likely be followed by a plethora of "I do teach and it still sucks" posts. This may be true or not, but there is still definately not enough teaching.

I still see way too many "vets only" and "know the quest" LFMs up.

If you are not willing to make your raid 5 minutes longer and teach newbs how to play, then you cant complain that newbs dont know how to play. This is the same mentality as not voting, then crying about the government every third day of the week.

The ratio of teachers -vs- gripers is what needs to be fixed. If you are not part of the solution then you are part of the problem, and are soon to be part of the precipitate, as you have only accomplished setting up the expectation to continually be disappointed by the outcome.

Just about any LFM that says know quest is ran by a noob who doesn't and wants to be carried thru said quest. And you are wrong there are very few vets who wont spend an extra 5 minutes to complet a quest to teach a newb.

Every raid I run I ALWAYS ask if we have anyone new to the quest. If anyone says yes I ALWAYS make an announcment to the party. Bear with me those of you that know the quest. I'm going to over explain what to do so the newbies will know what's going on. Look at any raid LFM I put up it ALWAYS says newbs with sound that can listen are welcome we know quest well. I'd say that's more than an open invitation for newbs to step in and learn a raid.

[krud]

Some of you might want to read this post closer. This wasn't a slam the noobs or pit vets vs. newbs rant. It was a statement that DDO wants all these new players and so do I for the most part. But DDO needs to better provide them with the tools to make them a better player. They need to advertise this as much as they advertise all the **** adventure packs and sales that they have going on. Right now they do very little to help the new player base learn the game other than give them an easy button. This doesn't teach them the game. It just gets them to higher levels with less competency. That's DDo's fault not the newbs fault.

This is where I disagree. They have plenty of tools available to become whatever kind of player they want to be. It's the vets that are so eager to make them function just like we do. They haven't had all those level cap pauses to figure out the intricacies with multiple toons as we did, so shortcomings continue on past 10/12/16. The only valid complaint is that the forums aren't made as prominent as they should be. However, I really don't think one should have to go to the forums in order to enjoy the game.

So I see where the vets are getting frustrated. Be it from this or the grind either way they are getting frustrated. You don't see vets running pugs on there lowbies at all. They avoid it lie the plague. They'd rather solo than pug. In the past this would never happen. They can say that they don't like the grind but we grinded for years before. HOw long did we wait for the level caps from 10-16. Better yet 16-20 was a year of the same stuff no new quests at all. Yet everyone still stayed around and paid to do so. Why? Because it was still fun to kill off a toon and roll an new one. Pugs were fun back then. Now pugs are avoided.

I don't avoid pugs, they are still fun. I enjoy making do with whatever hand is dealt me. Just get over the idea that they have to know what we know in order to enjoy the game.

[Disavowed]

This is where I disagree. They have plenty of tools available to become whatever kind of player they want to be. It's the vets that are so eager to make them function just like we do. They haven't had all those level cap pauses to figure out the intricacies with multiple toons as we did, so shortcomings continue on past 10/12/16. The only valid complaint is that the forums aren't made as prominent as they should be. However, I really don't think one should have to go to the forums in order to enjoy the game.


I don't avoid pugs, they are still fun. I enjoy making do with whatever hand is dealt me. Just get over the idea that they have to know what we know in order to enjoy the game.

I don't expect them to know what we know. I think I've stated that more than once now. I do expect them to know that their ranger can use a cure wand especially at level 8.

[vVAnjilaVv]

This is where I disagree. They have plenty of tools available to become whatever kind of player they want to be. It's the vets that are so eager to make them function just like we do. They haven't had all those level cap pauses to figure out the intricacies with multiple toons as we did, so shortcomings continue on past 10/12/16. The only valid complaint is that the forums aren't made as prominent as they should be. However, I really don't think one should have to go to the forums in order to enjoy the game.


I don't avoid pugs, they are still fun. I enjoy making do with whatever hand is dealt me. Just get over the idea that they have to know what we know in order to enjoy the game.

This is why I solo 75% of the first ten levels of any of my characters, because I will be the first to admit, I don't wanna be in those levels really and I am not going to have the patience for the people just learning. I still group some, but I seem to solo a lot quicker in these levels...and even in situation where I don't.....I don't have to deal with the stress.

By the time u start getting to double digit levels it really starts to filter out, and by the time ur to level 13, there are only 4 f2p quests available.

Seriously, let the new players play with the new players in game.....if they have any really hard times...let them come here and learn and ask questions.

Vets shouldn't have to be slowed down by people that are brand new....it's not meant as an insult to new players, but your just flipping the same coin and showing the other side of it when you say that vets don't have enough patience.

Sorry, I paid my dues.....when the new players have paid thiers, I'll have plenty of patience for them.......because the amount I will need by then won't be a burden.

[Chai]

Just about any LFM that says know quest is ran by a noob who doesn't and wants to be carried thru said quest. And you are wrong there are very few vets who wont spend an extra 5 minutes to complet a quest to teach a newb.

Every raid I run I ALWAYS ask if we have anyone new to the quest. If anyone says yes I ALWAYS make an announcment to the party. Bear with me those of you that know the quest. I'm going to over explain what to do so the newbies will know what's going on. Look at any raid LFM I put up it ALWAYS says newbs with sound that can listen are welcome we know quest well. I'd say that's more than an open invitation for newbs to step in and learn a raid.

The ratio of vets who will teach -vs- vets who will not does not lean in your favor in this discussion. For every one of "you" there are quite a few more of "them."

The ratio of vets who will teach -vs- vets who will gripe about new players not getting it after putting forth little to no effort is even worse. This is ironic, because someone else helped these saps learn the game when they were new. Even if you have played since day 1, it is likely that someone more familiar with 3.5 helped you out at least somewhat back in the day of halfling thrower builds and repeater rogues.

This is why the problem still exists, more than half a year after the major population explosion. For every time I have seen a self proclaimed 'vet' teach, I have seen 5 to 6 times that many /ragequit, after clearly demonstrating that their own communication skills are lacking more than the new player they are trying to rip on in chat. Then it is up to myself or another player who knows the quest to pull everyone through short manned, after taking a few minutes to explain things. Since we usually still get it done even after the drama plays itself out, this tells me that the issue is lack of leadership, and not lack of potential in new players.

Many new players will not even admit its their first run, due to previous vet hostility. Yes, this is an issue, but its a two way street, and understanding this is the first step toward resolution.

[krud]

This is why I solo 75% of the first ten levels of any of my characters, because I will be the first to admit, I don't wanna be in those levels really and I am not going to have the patience for the people just learning. I still group some, but I seem to solo a lot quicker in these levels...and even in situation where I don't.....I don't have to deal with the stress.

By the time u start getting to double digit levels it really starts to filter out, and by the time ur to level 13, there are only 4 f2p quests available.

Seriously, let the new players play with the new players in game.....if they have any really hard times...let them come here and learn and ask questions.

Vets shouldn't have to be slowed down by people that are brand new....it's not meant as an insult to new players, but your just flipping the same coin and showing the other side of it when you say that vets don't have enough patience.

Sorry, I paid my dues.....when the new players have paid thiers, I'll have plenty of patience for them.......because the amount I will need by then won't be a burden.

That's fine. As I said "let the kids be kids". If you don't want to deal with them then don't.

However, many times when I see vets in lowbie pugs, their idea of teaching is showing them how to do the quest, and not how to play their characters. For a majority of quests below level 10, showing someone the quest is not necessary. Giving them useful info about their characters is.

Whenever I was in a group with newb pally's and rangers, and noticed they never topped themselves off, I'd hand them a used cure wand and say "You know you can use these. It's more economical than potions". That doesn't take much time. Let them know they can most other wands as well. "just drink a pot" certainly doesn't help. It's not like this happens all the way thru the quest. Once or twice per quest I end up pasing out such advice, but if vets gave out more tidbits like that along the way they'd learn their characters better and not just be spectators.

[Chai]

Vets shouldn't have to be slowed down by people that are brand new....it's not meant as an insult to new players, but your just flipping the same coin and showing the other side of it when you say that vets don't have enough patience.

Sorry, I paid my dues.....when the new players have paid thiers, I'll have plenty of patience for them.......because the amount I will need by then won't be a burden.

This is fine, as you are soloing and selectively grouping, however....

People with this same mentality have no clout when I see them griping on the boards about new players not being able to play to their standards, yet the majority of them are not willing to teach said new players they are griping about. And there have been ALOT of threads with people moaning about new players, trust me.