I understand everyones frustration

[MalakRevan]

I do have to say that I like Emili's idea of having the manual pop up when the game is DL'd onto your hard drive so you can read it while the game is installing.

[ristretto93]

...I don't really think the best way for new players to learn is through the forums. For me, the best way to learn ddo is by playing with a semi-static group, or joining a guild. I was luck enough to find some very nice ppl to play with when I first came to ddo, and if it wasn't for that I'm pretty sure I would have gotten tired of it very fast. With them I learned the game basics, and after a while I started to visit the forums and gather info by myself. Nowadays every now and then I bring some new info for the bosses of my current guild, player that have been around since 2006.
The problems I see with the forum for new players is that it won't be as fun, if you don't know what to look for you will end up with more doubts than knowledge, and mostly, while usually when they are asking basic questions that does not happen, when they start to think for themself and decide to, say, make an unusuall building they think might be fun, ppl will not respond to it very politely. If I had gotten in all the forum drama when I joined, that would definitly also make me leave.

Don't know if that is the way it would work with everyone, but at least that is how it would work for me...

I couldn't agree more. The forums have, on quite a few occasions, done more to make the game LESS desirable as a whole. There is no doubt that I have gained a ton of knowledge from what people have contributed here, and for that I'm glad I've been coming here to read for the last 5 months or so. What the big turn off is are the attitudes of players towards one another - and towards new players in general. I think: 'well, if these are the people that make up the game I am playing, and their attitudes towards me are predisposed towards condescension and cooler-than-thou-elitism without ever even knowing me, what reasons I have for wanting to play (and play better) are outweighed by how reluctant I have been to PuG or get involved with meeting anyone in the game due to the likelihood that most people are going to treat me badly - and I don't suffer that in real life so there is no way in hell I would play a game to put myself through that. People here are smart, they are funny, they are knowledgeable...but on the whole my impression is that the (veteran) player base is largely cruel people with hostile attitudes toward new people and towards change. Obviously there must be exceptions to that, but how the hell will I ever track them down as people I who's company would be fun?

I've been VIP for a little more than a month, and my desire to play has only dwindled. No offense to anyone, really, but I secretly want more and more of the vets to leave the game. I want my chance to enjoy it, even if it becomes a more difficult game without the solid knowledgeable veteran players. If I have to go back to FtP until the game is being played by people who are less burnt out I totally will...and I can't wait.

Of course, I am eager for the heaps of 'neg rep' or whatever for speaking truthfully about my perspective about my experience with veteran players both here and in game. I have had enough of 'cool points' from real life I think I will get over it. And I really am sorry if I offend the few hidden experienced players who are nice to new people, who are okay with change, and are generally accepting fun human beings - this was not aimed at you!

btw, my main is: http://my.ddo.com/character/thelanis/zilcho/ if you want to go ahead and black list me!

hugs and kisses,

Zilcho D'void of Thelanis

-------------

[Emili]

If this is available you're right it needs to be a pop up from the DL.

It is right here... http://www.ddo.com/ddogameinfo/manual most likely needs some updating again. It is an overview of many of the features available, covers the UI, some of character creation and of importance of certain stats ... wow this latest one talks of favor, mentions AH, vendor buy backs and even a small paragraph and link on crafting... while not comprehensive it highlights, comprises and sparks thought and I would imagine anyonre reading such would arrive in Krothos with a clue.

[Frodo_Lives]

One of the biggest problems for newer players is the steep learning curve and the lack of easily available information.

No one wants to play a gimped character, and I have yet to meet anyone who thought it was fun to suck and be a drain on the group. Everyone wants to feel like they are contributing in some way, even if they aren't the superstar of the group.

Most player ignorance comes from lack of information not an unwillingness to get better. The information is out there but it should be more obvious and accessable to new players. In other words they shouldn't have to go searching for it, it should hit them over the head!

[Disavowed]

It is right here... http://www.ddo.com/ddogameinfo/manual most likely needs some updating again.

Nice work

[lord_of_rage]

Lately it seems there is so much vets vs new f2p players. I can see where alot of new player can be frustrated with us vets. Us vets can see the otherside. Myself I do tire of hearing about how hard this game is. I get tierd of hearing about how we vets no longer remember the feeling of running 28pt chars without dumping tomes and gear all the time. Yet the game we played for years was harder. There was no scaling. So we take offense to it.

So we run into new players frustracted with vets and vets frustrated with newbs. Sometimes it becomes a case of both parties not listening to each other. I would hope we can find common ground and the vets can teach the new players and the new players can then pay it forward. One thing I have always loved about Khyber is the pug scene and how well the vets taught newer players.

We vets do feel some respect is warrented. Alot of us have been playing here for 2+ years. we fought through the lack of content and the worry that the game might fail. And back in the day we walked 10 miles up and down hill in the snow. We vets and I mean that as a vet of this game and also of my chosen profession, tend to have those hard feelings. But we do like to teach. Its part of what makes the ddo community one of the best out there. I dlove to see both lean abit more on each other to recreate what this game used to have.

[teapotdome]

Lately it seems there is so much vets vs new f2p players. I can see where alot of new player can be frustrated with us vets. Us vets can see the otherside. Myself I do tire of hearing about how hard this game is. I get tierd of hearing about how we vets no longer remember the feeling of running 28pt chars without dumping tomes and gear all the time. Yet the game we played for years was harder. There was no scaling. So we take offense to it.

So we run into new players frustracted with vets and vets frustrated with newbs. Sometimes it becomes a case of both parties not listening to each other. I would hope we can find common ground and the vets can teach the new players and the new players can then pay it forward. One thing I have always loved about Khyber is the pug scene and how well the vets taught newer players.

We vets do feel some respect is warrented. Alot of us have been playing here for 2+ years. we fought through the lack of content and the worry that the game might fail. And back in the day we walked 10 miles up and down hill in the snow. We vets and I mean that as a vet of this game and also of my chosen profession, tend to have those hard feelings. But we do like to teach. Its part of what makes the ddo community one of the best out there. I dlove to see both lean abit more on each other to recreate what this game used to have.

he sounds so mature...not a single reference to beer at all.

[ristretto93]

Lately it seems there is so much vets vs new f2p players. I can see where alot of new player can be frustrated with us vets. Us vets can see the otherside. Myself I do tire of hearing about how hard this game is. I get tierd of hearing about how we vets no longer remember the feeling of running 28pt chars without dumping tomes and gear all the time. Yet the game we played for years was harder. There was no scaling. So we take offense to it.

I would give anything to have played the game w/o scaling. My fault for missing that boat. If I have any complaint with the game itself (aside from some of the people) it would be that it was dumbed down before I showed up. I would like to try to solo or short man the same challenges that full groups face. Always, when I run something alone (too much lately) I know somewhere inside that being able to solo something does not mean you are any good.

As for seeing the other side...maybe some new players can and do understand your perspective. They did the same thing to EverQuest - made it easier and easier as time went on, while me and my friends experienced the hardest, most broken-ass game to get where we were, newbs were doing it faster than ever (and they got in game maps, those spoiled ingrates! We had to learn every inch of the territory in a huge world from the 1st person PoV). My point is that alot of 'new' players to DDO aren't really new players at all.

Because we aren't uber, because we don't know it all already from doing the same quests hundreds (thousands?) of times, or because (omg!) we might slow your completion time down by 2 minutes trying to learn how to keep up...does not mean we are clueless f'ing morons. A good number of us newbs have played other MMOs, and really, to some of us YOU are the newbs from the big-picture point of view. This has NOT been a hard game to learn. There IS NO STEEP LEARNING CURVE to anybody that has played at least 1 other MMO. Learning the 3.5 D&D ins and outs (yep, more of a 1st Ed and 2nd Ed player here) as well as the more optimal choices vs. sub-perfect ones takes some playing experience and sometimes a little bit of deeper research - but that is part of every game out there.

You all have a tight little community in what has been a pretty small scale game in comparison - I can appreciate that. Too bad as a new player I don't feel even slightly welcome at this point, because it would probably be fun to play the game with at least some of you 'vets'. Instead, we newbs (whatever!) have invaded your land, have become the enemy, and deserve your impatience, patronizing or condescending remarks and sometimes open hostility? Okay then, if thats how it is, you should know: we out number you, we aren't burned out and weary(yet), we have fresh and different (probably more innovative) ideas as to how to get things done because we arent so programmed by the illusion that things have to be done a certain way. I am quite sure this is our game now. Have fun, hope you find a better game soon!

Okay, I guess thats just my perspective - and I harsh on vets attitudes prolly way more than they have harshed on me personally (though I watch it happen to other new players constantly on my server, which I won't name but starts with a 'T'). I'm totally sorry. I guess I am just a bad person

[Rabbi_Hordo]

There is a solution. DDO needs to get more new people to the forums and teach them what the forums can offer.

Beerman, I so fully understand your point in the OP and further endorse most of it. However, there is a secondary problem...the forums are populated with posts that are misleading at best and fully inaccurate at worst that seem to make it seem there is a dearth of productive posts for these individuals to learn from properly.

I do not want to walk over an already well-worn path but any attempt the past to give any sort of criticism either positive or unfortunately negative was met with draconian resistance and punitive actions.

My point is that not only does Turbine need to do a better job at getting folks to the forums, but also REWARDING for a change those vets who go out of their way to be constructive and help stem the flow of misinformation that is creating a consistent influx of mediocre or worse players on the game in ever increasing numbers.

[lord_of_rage]

I would give anything to have played the game w/o scaling. My fault for missing that boat. If I have any complaint with the game itself (aside from some of the people) it would be that it was dumbed down before I showed up. I would like to try to solo or short man the same challenges that full groups face. Always, when I run something alone (too much lately) I know somewhere inside that being able to solo something does not mean you are any good.

As for seeing the other side...maybe some new players can and do understand your perspective. They did the same thing to EverQuest - made it easier and easier as time went on, while me and my friends experienced the hardest, most broken-ass game to get where we were, newbs were doing it faster than ever (and they got in game maps, those spoiled ingrates! We had to learn every inch of the territory in a huge world from the 1st person PoV). My point is that alot of 'new' players to DDO aren't really new players at all.

Because we aren't uber, because we don't know it all already from doing the same quests hundreds (thousands?) of times, or because (omg!) we might slow your completion time down by 2 minutes trying to learn how to keep up...does not mean we are clueless f'ing morons. A good number of us newbs have played other MMOs, and really, to some of us YOU are the newbs from the big-picture point of view. This has NOT been a hard game to learn. There IS NO STEEP LEARNING CURVE to anybody that has played at least 1 other MMO. Learning the 3.5 D&D ins and outs (yep, more of a 1st Ed and 2nd Ed player here) as well as the more optimal choices vs. sub-perfect ones takes some playing experience and sometimes a little bit of deeper research - but that is part of every game out there.

You all have a tight little community in what has been a pretty small scale game in comparison - I can appreciate that. Too bad as a new player I don't feel even slightly welcome at this point, because it would probably be fun to play the game with at least some of you 'vets'. Instead, we newbs (whatever!) have invaded your land, have become the enemy, and deserve your impatience, patronizing or condescending remarks and sometimes open hostility? Okay then, if thats how it is, you should know: we out number you, we aren't burned out and weary(yet), we have fresh and different (probably more innovative) ideas as to how to get things done because we arent so programmed by the illusion that things have to be done a certain way. I am quite sure this is our game now. Have fun, hope you find a better game soon!

Okay, I guess thats just my perspective - and I harsh on vets attitudes prolly way more than they have harshed on me personally (though I watch it happen to other new players constantly on my server, which I won't name but starts with a 'T'). I'm totally sorry. I guess I am just a bad person

Wow such attitude. Someone really must have hurt your feelings. As far as your comment of us vets being the newbs we arnt and will never be the newbs in this game. Your whole post is full of patronizing and condencending comments. I was very nice in what I stated you on the other hand come off as a total hypocrit. Your ways of doing things in old content do not work as well as that of the vets who have been running the content for years.

Someone with your attitude can either adapt or leave this game. DDO is still our game. It will continue to be as long as we stick around. The we outnumber you, and this is our game, comments are simply inflammitory wishes from your own mind. Mind you regardless of prior xp with pnp DnD alot of newer players still break builds constantly. Yet so many of the builds posted on these forums are from....... suprise suprise VETS. Those of us that constantly attempt to help new players such as yourself only to have you spew hate upon us. What it really boils down to is your feelings are hurt. Well after having been nice its simple take it or you can as you stated go find another mmo. Because as they tend to the vets that are leaving will come back at some point. And when they do they will still know more about the game, the content, and have the gear and cash to play at a high lvl than you will.

[ristretto93]

One of the biggest problems for newer players is the steep learning curve and the lack of easily available information.

No one wants to play a gimped character, and I have yet to meet anyone who thought it was fun to suck and be a drain on the group. Everyone wants to feel like they are contributing in some way, even if they aren't the superstar of the group.

Most player ignorance comes from lack of information not an unwillingness to get better. The information is out there but it should be more obvious and accessable to new players. In other words they shouldn't have to go searching for it, it should hit them over the head!

I don't know, since i've only been around 6 months or so, but something tells me that you veterans didn't have the vast well of knowledge like the present day forums, DDO wiki, or the (crappy?) compendium when you were learning this game 3 or 4 years ago. If it is true that this game has only gotten easier with time, exactly why do you think new players aren't capable of learning the same way you all did? By playing! By making mistakes, being less than perfect, and learning with time.

What most of the vets seem to expect, is for the abundance of new players to be up to speed a lot faster than you were when you were starting. So what if somebody doesn't read and memorize all of the info that is out there, so what if some people learn by doing and don't want to use spoilers for the majority of the game content. Gods forbid we find ourselves making the same gimpy toons you all must have had, or take more time to do things, or don't know exactly what is expected of us from the vets (who have a very limited and worn out sense of a player's role in a group, imo). Who are you to expect more from new players than you were able to put forth yourselves when you started playing this game.

God, I have to stop ranting in other people's threads. My bad.

[Grecan]

Hey, i don't know if this is why those players left the game, but i agree on many (if not all) of your points and i'll tell you some things from my pov.

/rant on

I started playing DDO from when my forum join date says. This is the 1st MMO i've ever played, and i don't have any PnP experience, i've only played some cRPGs. But i've been very frustrated by the majority of pugs (and all the guilds) i've joined so far.
I've been reading the forums, i've asked for advice some times, sometimes i've asked for advice long-time players in-game, and some times such players have helped me giving me stuff, too (without me asking for them, but i don't usually decline them, either). Anyway, i'm taking my time searching the AH and the brokers for good stuff at good prices, so as to be as well prepared as i can for any situation, which i don't think that most new players do. From what i've seen, almost all they want is to jump in a dungeon as fast as they can and rush into the 1st mob on sight. Lots of them don't care about being a power-leveled piker, they only care about gaining levels fast. It seems a little weird to me that i've found myself helping with stuff and advice* people that are as new as me to the game... I have no idea why an X level ranger or pally doesn't know that he can use healing wands... It only takes a look at the wands in AH or a vendor (not even reading the forum and compendium) to see that most of them have a red lining around them, but there are others which s/he can use...
So, to end my rant i'll just repeat that i'm a new player, but i mostly solo, cause i don't like being upset every now and then (oh, and i'm on Ghallanda, i'm jealous of the other person on the same server who had a much better experience than me). And that's a pitty, cause this game can be very fun with the right party, but most of the time i just choose to have fun with my hireling! I feel grateful to many vets i've met in-game or have taken advice from here at the forum, while i'm frustrated by the majority of new players (and guilds).

/rant off

*edit: one of the best advice i give (imo) is to read the forums, compendium, wiki, and whatnot

[ristretto93]

Wow such attitude. Someone really must have hurt your feelings. As far as your comment of us vets being the newbs we arnt and will never be the newbs in this game. Your whole post is full of patronizing and condencending comments. I was very nice in what I stated you on the other hand come off as a total hypocrit. Your ways of doing things in old content do not work as well as that of the vets who have been running the content for years.

Someone with your attitude can either adapt or leave this game. DDO is still our game. It will continue to be as long as we stick around. The we outnumber you, and this is our game, comments are simply inflammitory wishes from your own mind. Mind you regardless of prior xp with pnp DnD alot of newer players still break builds constantly. Yet so many of the builds posted on these forums are from....... suprise suprise VETS. Those of us that constantly attempt to help new players such as yourself only to have you spew hate upon us. What it really boils down to is your feelings are hurt. Well after having been nice its simple take it or you can as you stated go find another mmo. Because as they tend to the vets that are leaving will come back at some point. And when they do they will still know more about the game, the content, and have the gear and cash to play at a high lvl than you will.

You are right. I was going off. It wasn't me that was hurt, but I get really ****ed when people do mean things to my friends.

For what it is worth, I have no hate for anybody in the game, just a bit of temporary frustration - probably like you were saying, the same thing the vets feel about the newbs. It all goes quickly away when I am away from the game/forums

What I failed to communicate here, but had earlier in the thread (if you read it), is that I have gained alot from the forums and other info sources. I have no illusions about the fact that this information was put here by long-time players. I also apologize if you felt that because I quoted you that I was attacking you. Not the case. I actually felt an empathic positive attitude coming from your post, and again I am sorry for not making that clear either. So hard in text to convey things effectively.

Really though, I must be careful with the whole hypocrisy thing. Its true, I let other people's 'tudes get into me and start becoming like them. Man, do I feel human

[Osharan_Tregarth]

One of my clerics did not have cure light wounds as a spell .

No possible with current game mechanics. I'll give you that they might have deleted the spell from their hotbar tho...

[Josh]

For you Beerman,



You are right. As a newer player, I only got better, caught a clue, picked up tricks of the trade when I was running with the long time vets. Unfortunately, this isn't common until end game. At lower levels TR's aren't going to take you because you may slow them down or cost them xp. Most vets don't have a lot of lowbies, and if they do, the cap them fairly quick.

I wish there was a solution.

I am in awe of this man's beer drinking skills.

[Murderface]

I'm with you, leveling my toons in lower level pugs makes me want to punch a baby.

lol

[SteeleTrueheart]

The thing that burns me out the most.

<50,000 vets (much less now people have left)
+
>950,000 new players (with a large turnover)
=
Impossible to teach situation.

I come to play a game, not teach someone about the game in EVERY run.

I used to teach new people but after a month, I realised I was saying the same thing over and over. Now I simply tell them ddowiki or ddoforums will answer nearly all your questions

[lord_of_rage]

I don't know, since i've only been around 6 months or so, but something tells me that you veterans didn't have the vast well of knowledge like the present day forums, DDO wiki, or the (crappy?) compendium when you were learning this game 3 or 4 years ago. If it is true that this game has only gotten easier with time, exactly why do you think new players aren't capable of learning the same way you all did? By playing! By making mistakes, being less than perfect, and learning with time.

What most of the vets seem to expect, is for the abundance of new players to be up to speed a lot faster than you were when you were starting. So what if somebody doesn't read and memorize all of the info that is out there, so what if some people learn by doing and don't want to use spoilers for the majority of the game content. Gods forbid we find ourselves making the same gimpy toons you all must have had, or take more time to do things, or don't know exactly what is expected of us from the vets (who have a very limited and worn out sense of a player's role in a group, imo). Who are you to expect more from new players than you were able to put forth yourselves when you started playing this game.

God, I have to stop ranting in other people's threads. My bad.

Wow you act if Ive said all these things. I love running low. I pull my lowbie FVS out constantly to help new players. Yes sometimes I dont want to run slow. So I will put up my own lfms stating that the runs will be fast, with no optionals. Myself and others have never said that the new players need to be up to speed faster than we did. I never said new players needed to be perfect. Its funny how you chose to attack me for the percieved injustices you have experienced while playing this game. I dont know every quest in this game either. To say we have a worn out sense of players role in this game is off base. Most vets will pug most content with a first come first serve attitude. I rarely wait for a cleric or healer.

I find more and more its the newer players that constantly pidgonhole classes. I cant tell you how many lfms I have seen saying they need a "tank" and only had pally or fighter listed. Or need melee only having fighter, pally, or barb. Ive had my 13rge/6rgr/1mnk halfing excluded from runs because he wasnt going to be enough"dps" lol. Newer players who come from other mmos tend to be the worst at excluding classes from their runs.

You sir are taking alot of things as personal attacks. You seem to have had bad experiences with some vets and now make the blanket assumption that we are all evil. We arnt. You are also showing the same hypocrisy you claim we are giving to you. It seems you have a severe negative bias ,and feel the need to unleash that, at some random vet as the target of your aggression.

As far as the wiki and the compendium go, the have been around as long as I have been playing and my guess is longer.

[DrunkenBuddha]

The f2p change revolutionized this game. Perhaps worse for the short-term, but I think the long-term outlook is favorable. As evidenced by your Caverns experience, although the difficulty has been modified as of late, there is still a steep learning curve.

When I first downloaded, saw all the character optimizations, etc., I proceeded to make what in retrospect is probably the most uberist gimp ever. I learned through my spectacular failure. I learned that I knew absolutely nothing. If I saw someone doing 5 times the kill count, 2 levels below me, with the same class - I made an effort to find out exactly how the hell he did that. The type of player that doesn't take the effort to improve...the later difficulties will, for the most part, weed them out. I look at it from a Darwinian perspective - at some point, exceptions aside, you will have some better quality players (or some very stubborn stupid ones).

The game isn't enjoyable if all you're doing is piking. It isn't fun if you aren't killing anything. At some point, they will either stay stupid, learn, or leave. The population will stabilize, and quality will for the most part persist instead of quantity. At least that's what I believe.

I joined because it was free and was an old PnP nut. I've stayed, despite some of the asinine changes and decisions, because this is fun. Frustrating as all get out some times, but still fun.

[Mithran]

My primary motive is lack of time.

While the newer players can be immature and ignorant of game mechanics and logistics to an annoying degree, the breaking point for me was my 60th run of Titan without a Chattering Ring. Friends have told me I should have given up long ago (really, 60+ runs for 3 points of A/C?! A/C is worthless in endgame, anyway!) but I'm obsessive about my gear on my mains.

Here's annoying for you. . .

Five people are waiting for a Co6 run and the leader can't decide whether to proceed with a hireling sorc or accept the request from a Paladin to join. Finally, he lets the Paladin in. . .

Leader: "Do you know how to get here?"

About a minute and a half pass.

Leader: "Newpally*, that was directed at you."

The other five of us are at the first Co6 quest entrance, waiting.

Another minute passes, and he still hasn't zoned into Sorrowdusk.

Newpally: "Sec."

Another two minutes pass.

Newpally: "Pass me the star."

Leader: "No."

Leader to me: "Do you mind if I boot him?"

Me to leader: "Not in the least."

Then we go with the hireling sorc.

I've seen a great many LFM's that are subtitled: "New players only" so the group can go slower to smell the flowers. Most veterans have smelled them innumerable times and are much more focussed on getting the experience from the run than from appreciating the beauty of * quest.

There's certainly a disparity in the approach many new players have from the approach taken by veterans, and to me that relates primarily to courtesy. Veterans know better than to leave someone sitting waiting for them for five minutes. If we're more goal-oriented, we're also getting our experience a lot faster. It took me almost six weeks to get my Paladin/Rogue from TR to cap and I've grown to resent the grind.

My ex-girlfriend (from back during the 60 Minutes show; we met at the store where the gaming was recorded) told me she was sufficiently interested in the game to download and play it, once she's done packing for her pending move from Texas to Minnesota, so I'll be here a bit more once she's on, taking the time to show her around and get her geared up.

*Not the character's real name.