Drow Pale Master 19wiz/1rg - Advice please!

[valorik]

-
WOW, really?
More WF raceism?
You still have alot to learn about this game my friend.
WF Sorcs are CRAZY deadly.
Maxed CHA does NOT make the best possible Class.
WF Sorc gets only -4 Lower DC than a Drow, which is the Max possible. Thats only -2 from any other Race. Couple that with Fast healing, High CON and the ability to PULL mobs INTO your FW for max Destruction, instead of Diplo things away from your VERY low CON Drow = VERY high survivability.
I've built LOTS of Arcane casters. Done the Drow 14/2 Wiz (That was the level cap then) and it was good. I truly deleted that character and rerolled as Warforged. Yes, they are ugly but as an Arcane class, they are Top Dog, hands down.
But I actually don't play that one, because as a Sorc, they are SO much fun. I've never ever had a better surviving character, that pulles the party our of certain wipe, many times. Fast Casting and High Spell Points of the Sorc combined with Warforged Immunities and Very great Hitpoints and still an awesome UMD (again, only a few points off max really). You just have a hard time killing WF sorcs, even if you get right up on them. They repair FAST and FULL with LOTS of HP.
But these statements are not intended to encourage you to make WF. Lots of new people still make bad ones, its true. But it will hopefully get you to overlook the uglyness and often missplayed WF race, that always get the race hate.
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Though as a rule, I don't care to play WF on any other class but arcane. The healing wack they take make them very dissliked by many players.

I don't think he dislikes warforged because they're not viable as a caster, but rather for flavor reasons, I could be mistaken...

[Dr.Goodspeed]

New build:

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.34
DDO Character Planner Home Page

Level 20 True Neutral Drow Female
(2 Rogue \ 18 Wizard) 
Hit Points: 166
Spell Points: 1570 
BAB: 10\10\15\20
Fortitude: 7
Reflex: 19
Will: 10

                  Starting            Ending          Feat/Enhancement
Abilities        Base Stats         Base Stats         Modified Stats
(28 Point)       (Level 1)          (Level 20)           (Level 20)
Strength              8                  8                    8
Dexterity            10                 10                   10
Constitution         12                 12                   12
Intelligence         20                 27                   30
Wisdom                8                  8                    8
Charisma             16                 16                   16

Tomes Used
+2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 7

                  Starting            Ending          Feat/Enhancement
                 Base Skills        Base Skills        Modified Skills
Skills           (Level 1)          (Level 20)          (Level 20)
Balance               4                  4                    4
Bluff                 7                  7                    7
Concentration         3                 24                   25
Diplomacy             3                  3                    3
Disable Device        9                 33                   33
Haggle                7                  7                    7
Heal                  1                  1                    1
Hide                  0                  0                    0
Intimidate            3                  3                    3
Jump                  3                  3                    3
Listen               -1                 -1                    1
Move Silently         0                  0                    0
Open Lock             4                  5.5                  5.5
Perform               n/a               n/a                   n/a
Repair                5                 10                   10
Search                9                 33                   35
Spot                  3                 22                   26
Swim                  3                  3                    3
Tumble                4                  4                    4
Use Magic Device      7                 26                   26

Level 1 (Rogue)
Skill: Balance (+4)
Skill: Bluff (+4)
Skill: Concentration (+2)
Skill: Disable Device (+4)
Skill: Haggle (+4)
Skill: Heal (+2)
Skill: Jump (+4)
Skill: Open Lock (+4)
Skill: Search (+4)
Skill: Spot (+4)
Skill: Swim (+4)
Skill: Tumble (+4)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+4)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness
Feat: (Automatic) Attack
Feat: (Automatic) Drow Spell Resistance
Feat: (Automatic) Elven Keen Senses
Feat: (Automatic) Enchantment Save Bonus
Feat: (Automatic) Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Shuriken
Feat: (Automatic) Heroic Durability
Feat: (Automatic) Immunity to Sleep
Feat: (Automatic) Light Armor Proficiency
Feat: (Automatic) Martial Weapon Proficiency: Rapier
Feat: (Automatic) Martial Weapon Proficiency: Shortsword
Feat: (Automatic) Martial Weapon Proficiency: Shortbow
Feat: (Automatic) Simple Weapon Proficiency
Feat: (Automatic) Sneak
Feat: (Automatic) Sneak Attack
Feat: (Automatic) Spell Save Bonus
Feat: (Automatic) Trapfinding
Enhancement: Rogue Skill Boost I
Enhancement: Elven Keen Eyes I
Enhancement: Rogue Spot I
Enhancement: Rogue Improved Trap Sense I


Level 2 (Wizard)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Wizard Bonus) Mental Toughness
Feat: (Automatic) Dismiss Charm
Feat: (Automatic) Inscribe Scroll
Feat: (Automatic) Magical Training
Spell (1): Burning Hands
Spell (1): Expeditious Retreat
Spell (1): Hypnotism
Spell (1): Magic Missle
Spell (1): Obscuring Mist
Spell (1): Jump
Spell (1): Ray of Enfeeblement
Spell (1): Detect Secret Doors
Enhancement: Wizard Elemental Manipulation I
Enhancement: Wizard Energy of the Scholar I


Level 3 (Wizard)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Quicken Spell
Feat: (Automatic) Defensive Fighting
Feat: (Automatic) Sunder
Feat: (Automatic) Trip
Spell (1): Mage Armor
Spell (1): Feather Fall
Enhancement: Wizard Improved Quickening I
Enhancement: Wizard Intelligence I
Enhancement: Wizard Wand Mastery I


Level 4 (Wizard)
Ability Raise: INT
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Spell (2): Scorching Ray
Spell (2): Knock
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Wizard Lineage of Elements I


Level 5 (Wizard)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Spell (2): Invisibility
Spell (2): Blur
Enhancement: Wizard Elemental Manipulation II


Level 6 (Wizard)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Wizard Bonus) Extend Spell
Feat: (Selected) Insightful Reflexes
Spell (3): Haste
Spell (3): Fireball
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
Enhancement: Wizard Lineage of Deadly Elements I
Enhancement: Wizard Energy of the Scholar II
Enhancement: Wizard Wand Mastery II


Level 7 (Wizard)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Spell (3): Displacement
Spell (3): Flame Arrow
Enhancement: Wizard Intelligence II


Level 8 (Wizard)
Ability Raise: INT
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Spell (4): Wall of Fire
Spell (4): Stoneskin
Enhancement: Wizard Lineage of Elements II
Enhancement: Wizard Elemental Manipulation III


Level 9 (Wizard)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Empower Spell
Spell (4): Ice Storm
Spell (4): Dimension Door
Enhancement: Wizard Improved Empowering I


Level 10 (Wizard)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Spell (5): Cone of Cold
Spell (5): Dominate Person
Enhancement: Wizard Lineage of Deadly Elements II
Enhancement: Wizard Wand Mastery III


Level 11 (Wizard)
Skill: Concentration (+9)
Feat: (Wizard Bonus) Maximize Spell
Spell (5): Teleport
Spell (5): Cloudkill
Enhancement: Wizard Elemental Manipulation IV


Level 12 (Rogue)
Ability Raise: INT
Skill: Concentration (+3)
Skill: Disable Device (+2)
Skill: Search (+2)
Skill: Spot (+3)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+2)
Feat: (Selected) Heighten Spell
Feat: (Automatic) Evasion
Enhancement: Wizard Improved Maximizing I
Enhancement: Wizard Energy of the Scholar III


Level 13 (Wizard)
Skill: Concentration (+2)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Spell (6): Disintegrate
Spell (6): Greater Heroism
Enhancement: Wizard Lineage of Elements III


Level 14 (Wizard)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Spell (6): True Seeing
Spell (6): Otiluke's Freezing Sphere
Enhancement: Wizard Intelligence III


Level 15 (Wizard)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Spell Penetration
Spell (7): Finger of Death
Spell (7): Banishment
Enhancement: Wizard Lineage of Deadly Elements III


Level 16 (Wizard)
Ability Raise: INT
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Spell (7): Greater Teleport
Spell (7): Otto's Sphere of Dancing
Enhancement: Wizard Improved Maximizing II


Level 17 (Wizard)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Wizard Bonus) Improved Mental Toughness
Spell (8): Polar Ray
Spell (8): Horrid Wilting
Enhancement: Wizard Spell Penetration I


Level 18 (Wizard)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+0.5)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Spell Penetration
Spell (8): Sunburst
Spell (8): Otto's Irresistable Dance
Enhancement: Wizard Improved Quickening II
Enhancement: Wizard Concentration I


Level 19 (Wizard)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+0.5)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Spell (9): Wail of the Banshee
Spell (9): Meteor Swarm
Enhancement: Wizard Improved Empowering II


Level 20 (Wizard)
Ability Raise: INT
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+0.5)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Spell (8): Power Word: Stun
Spell (7): Delayed Blast Fireball
Enhancement: Wizard Improved Maximizing III

Better? :>

[wolfy42]

Um why so high a cha?

Yes UMD is great.....not arguing with you there...but you can boost your UMD pretty easy as a wizard and easily self heal. You should be able to hit 20+ UMD by lvl 10 easily with the rogue levels and thats all you really need early on.

But your con is only 12. Yes.....drows max out at 12 without spending extra points but I'd go for 14 and drop the 4 extra cha points. A 12 cha (at most) is plenty.

I'm guessing you do not have 32 point builds btw (otherwise I'd suggest going human instead....int is almost as high (with the +1 enhancement) and you have other advantages over drow).

Also your strength may be a problem especially if your not going to use tomes. I wouldn't want to run around with less then a 14 strength. It's fine if you are going to use a +2 tome and run with bulls strength, but other then that you could run into trouble. It might be worth dropping cha even more to add at least 2 points to strength.

Maybe something like this:

Str 10 (02)
Con 14 (10)
Int 20 (16)
Dex/Wis/Cha base (10/8/10)

That would be a bit more survivable all around, less likely to get hosed by strength, more hp long term and you only lose 3 to your UMD (hurts but can be made up for with equipment later on).

Of course if you were human with 32 point build you could go with something like this:

Str 10 (02)
dex 08 (00)
Con 16 (10)
Int 18 (16)
Wis 08 (00)
Cha 12 (04)

And you'd have an extra feat so you could grab SF UMD if you really wanted.

Add all level ups to int, +1 int human versatility (1 less then drow max then), +1 con human verse II (can get toughness 3). In addition you can snag the human healing enhancements to make wand/scroll healing more efficient (stacks with your wand enhancements as well).

Add in the nice human skill boost for traps as well as UMD and you come out WAY ahead of the drow pretty much. If you don't have 32 point builds open btw, just running 50 favor on each server will give you enough turbine points just about to open them up.

[Dr.Goodspeed]

Um why so high a cha?

Yes UMD is great.....not arguing with you there...but you can boost your UMD pretty easy as a wizard and easily self heal. You should be able to hit 20+ UMD by lvl 10 easily with the rogue levels and thats all you really need early on.

But your con is only 12. Yes.....drows max out at 12 without spending extra points but I'd go for 14 and drop the 4 extra cha points. A 12 cha (at most) is plenty.

I'm guessing you do not have 32 point builds btw (otherwise I'd suggest going human instead....int is almost as high (with the +1 enhancement) and you have other advantages over drow).

Also your strength may be a problem especially if your not going to use tomes. I wouldn't want to run around with less then a 14 strength. It's fine if you are going to use a +2 tome and run with bulls strength, but other then that you could run into trouble. It might be worth dropping cha even more to add at least 2 points to strength.

Maybe something like this:

Str 10 (02)
Con 14 (10)
Int 20 (16)
Dex/Wis/Cha base (10/8/10)

That would be a bit more survivable all around, less likely to get hosed by strength, more hp long term and you only lose 3 to your UMD (hurts but can be made up for with equipment later on).

Of course if you were human with 32 point build you could go with something like this:

Str 10 (02)
dex 08 (00)
Con 16 (10)
Int 18 (16)
Wis 08 (00)
Cha 12 (04)

And you'd have an extra feat so you could grab SF UMD if you really wanted.

Add all level ups to int, +1 int human versatility (1 less then drow max then), +1 con human verse II (can get toughness 3). In addition you can snag the human healing enhancements to make wand/scroll healing more efficient (stacks with your wand enhancements as well).

Add in the nice human skill boost for traps as well as UMD and you come out WAY ahead of the drow pretty much. If you don't have 32 point builds open btw, just running 50 favor on each server will give you enough turbine points just about to open them up.

Thx, very good post. I got 32 point build, but I chose to go Drow for flavor reasons and because of the +2 int. I agree though that the low con might hurt. I'll think about it, but I really really like Drow and I think I can compensate for the lack of con by playing well. Furthermore I might use other +2 tomes than the int one, I just didn't count on them for the creation of this build.


So long,
Goodspeed

[wolfy42]

I totally understand choosing going with a favorite race. I was on a halfling only kick for about a year awhile ago (I still love my halfling Barbarian).

Cosmetically there isn't that huge of a diff between the drow elf female and human female especially if you make the human females skin dark. Thematic reasons of course are a whole nother story.

There would be some serious advantages though for your skill usage, so if your going to snag disarm traps/search etc.....I would really consider going human and just making her look as drow like as possible.

Honestly the 2 rogue/18 wizard build is just freaking great (so is 1 barb/2 rogue/17 wizard...the barb level for extra hp, speed and melee capabilities).

If your going to solo alot (not sure if that is your plan or not) it does help to have decent backup melee and the fastest run speed you can get. 1 barbarian level adds 10% universal run speed and 5 sprint boosts (35% more) that all stack with haste...making you mega fast.

It sure slows things down as far as getting later spells, but it also makes a very good and versatile build. Human especially is great due to the skill and attack boosts (and saving throw boosts for that matter) when you need them.

Giving up 3 levels really hurts...but honestly once your already giving up 2 for rogue skills and evasion, 1 more level isn't THAT much of a sacrifice. With DP clickies later on you can be quite effective in melee with a barbarian level (no need for Masters touch) and the bonus HP...well thats pretty nice as well (barbarian toughness + barbarian base 12 hp).

I'm a big fan of the 2 rogue/1 barb/rest wizard combo as I think it is one of the more versatile characters in the game both solo and non-solo. You don't take a hit on your DC's, a slight hit on your SP (but you can compensate for that), you have more hp then most other wizards (comparable to some WF wizards in fact), very high UMD for self healing, very fast self buffed run speed (and with veteran status you get there pretty fast if you hold off on your second rogue level till after you get haste), excellent rogue skills for traps and quite decent backup melee damage for when low on sp or conserving them.

I have to be honest that I am a bit prejudiced against drow though. Not because I don't like the race, but because I felt compelled to play as one for along time till I opened 32 point builds (for my casters at least) and so I avoid them pretty much universally now. I never really liked the drow enhancements and even back then I used to go with human or WF (and once even a dwarven wizard) instead of drow just because I was tired of the race.

I have deleted every one of my drow characters and have not even 1 drow on my main servers 17 slots (Not sure on other servers I havn't played them for years).

I also find WF a bit ugly..although I can't always resist the natural advantages they have for spellcasting builds. The barbarian/rogue/wizard build though does work better as a human in many ways since you can still self heal fairly well (heal scrolls and wands) but you gain a much higher bonus to your skills from the human skill boost (and the human attack boost sure helps till you get DP clickies and even after that). The WF huge con though is awesome....and the WF immunites and self healing is great as well.

For me it's either human or WF at this point for my spellcasters almost universally (ok...I still have a soft place in my heart for halfling wizards with dragon marks...but I don't have one currently).

If you like halflings at all though...it can be a fun way to play....and you still can go the whole barb 1/rogue 2/wizard 17. The speed of everything seems so much more intense when your a halfling vs a normal sized character (human/drow) or larger character (WF). Halflings are my favorite race even if I have not been playing them as much lately (mostly humans for me now..to many advantages in most cases...with a smattering of WF).

[Roziel_Longblade]

Please read my reasoning as to why I hate WF before useless posts like this. Their appearance is just part of the reason I don't like them. The main reason I don't like them is not that they aren't good, but that they're actually too good as a race imho.

I dont play them because of the looks. Annoying to have it running in front of me for hours. If they looked more like the ones in Haywire VON quest I would play them all the time.

[Phidius]

... The barbarian/rogue/wizard build though does work better as a human in many ways since you can still self heal fairly well (heal scrolls and wands) but you gain a much higher bonus to your skills from the human skill boost (and the human attack boost sure helps till you get DP clickies and even after that)...

Don't forget that Humans get built in healing amp, which helps make those Heal scrolls hit even harder.

[ddoer]

...
Coupled with what Baphomar wrote about high end monster immunities and saves, I'll consider dropping the idea of a Pale Master altogether... If the PM does get some love in of the next updates, I can always lesser reincarnate I guess.

What spell focuses would recommend instead? Or should I take none at all then? And what type of dmg spells should I focus on? Fire/Cold(obviously very powerful coupled with firewall etc.) or Acid/Lightning? I suppose I already know the answer but I just like acid and lightning dmg for some reason :>

What about my questions about concentration? Will I be fine without it using Quicken Spell when necessary, or should I definitely max it out?

the main benefit of PM is a bit more HP. I would recommend any wiz not to take it. However, you could still focus on necromancy. There is a long way to go for a new caster to run epic and a higher necromancy DC will make your wiz more funny to play in most non-epic content.

max concentration. you'll have a lot of skill points no matter you take rog level or not, and you need concentration for using heal scroll for yourself.

any caster should max out fire/cold damage. and take wiz int 2 or 3 to even out your Int.

-
...
You still have alot to learn about this game my friend.
...
[FONT=Tahoma]WF Sorc gets only -4 Lower DC than a Drow, which is the Max possible. Thats only -2 from any other Race. ...

it's -4 Cha or -2 DC.

Goodspeed, there is nothing wrong with your personal preference. If you don't like WF, just don't roll a WF and don't listen to the BS. Notice that, for new player, WF casters are much easier to build than their fleshy counterparts.

• I'd really like to keep the single rogue level(or add another one for evasion and some additional skill points) for UMD and trapsmithing, but I'm willing to go pure if it's really advantageous

either no rog or 2 rog level. imho, the capstone advantage is not that much. pure wiz will give you +2 capstone int, +2 spell penetration, and the capstone metamagic efficiency over wiz18/rog2.

the rog levels will make it much easier to get enough UMD for using heal scrolls. If you take rog as the first level, you'll get more total skill points but you'll have to put them in some dump skills and you can't max out your trap skills afaik, so don't do that. Besides, you can't use caster feat in the first level if u take rog.

What I'm absolutely unsure of:

• Feats(no maximize, no insightful reflexes, etc.)
• should I take another rogue level or will that hurt my DC too much as a necro?
• Enhancements(!!!) => Are the Imp. Metamagic enhancements any good? The spell cost reduction doesn't seem too great for me
• the way I planned it, I won't take the concentration skill using quicken spell most of the time, thus the full enhancement line Imp. Quicken Spell => Is this possible as Wiz or will I run into mana problems very quickly? What about concentration in general? In parties most of the times you shouldn't have anything attacking you anyways right? And when soloing you can use quicken spell whenever it's necessary.
• there are some other points I'm unsure of, but I can't think of them right now

always take maximize and insightful reflex. if you don't take insightful reflex, your rog evasion is meaningless.

for metamagic enhancement, take fireball as an example. The base cost is 25, if you max+emp+ext+quicken it, every fw costs, 25+25+15+10+10=85, assume you have 2200 SP, you could cast around 26 FW. If you have full metamagic efficiency for max, emp, and quicken, every fw will cost 85-6-9-4 = 66 SP, your 2200 sp could cast 33 FW. I would say you have increased your mana by 27% or around 600sp.

running out of mana is not a build issue. any caster should get a archmagi and Greensteel SP accessory. Some may take MT and IMT for more SP. Other than that, it's a matter of how you use your spells and how you manage your mana.

                  Starting            Ending          Feat/Enhancement
                 Base Skills        Base Skills        Modified Skills
Skills           (Level 1)          (Level 20)          (Level 20)
Balance               4                  4                    4
Bluff                 1                  1                    1
Concentration         4                 16                   16
Diplomacy             5                  5                    5
Disable Device        9                 33                   33
Haggle                5                  5                    5
Heal                  1                  1                    1
Hide                  0                  0                    0
Intimidate            1                  1                    1
Jump                  3                  3                    3
Listen               -1                 -1                    1
Move Silently         0                  0                    0
Open Lock             4                  4                    4
Perform               n/a               n/a                   n/a
Repair                5                 10                   10
Search                9                 33                   35
Spot                  3                 22                   26
Swim                  3                  3                    3
Tumble                4                  4                    4
Use Magic Device      5                 24                   24

for a new player, i would recommend you to put skill points to haggle to get more plats. I think you will want to max out open lock too. for jump, you'll get +30 from jump spell, +4 from GH, but you still need a few more points to get to 40 which is the cap.

[wolfy42]

Great post Ddoer, +1 rep for you