Drow Pale Master 19wiz/1rg - Advice please!

[Dr.Goodspeed]

Hey guys,

this is my first attempt at a wizard build, so please do not hesitate to give me any advice, whether it's enhancements, feats, or whatever else. To help you do that, here's a list of things that I don't want to change under any circumstances:

• Race(I won't play a WF)
• Pale Master & thus the focus on necromancy spells(don't want to play an evoker, etc.)
• I'd really like to keep the single rogue level(or add another one for evasion and some additional skill points) for UMD and trapsmithing, but I'm willing to go pure if it's really advantageous

What I'm absolutely unsure of:

• Feats(no maximize, no insightful reflexes, etc.)
• should I take another rogue level or will that hurt my DC too much as a necro?
• Enhancements(!!!) => Are the Imp. Metamagic enhancements any good? The spell cost reduction doesn't seem too great for me
• the way I planned it, I won't take the concentration skill using quicken spell most of the time, thus the full enhancement line Imp. Quicken Spell => Is this possible as Wiz or will I run into mana problems very quickly? What about concentration in general? In parties most of the times you shouldn't have anything attacking you anyways right? And when soloing you can use quicken spell whenever it's necessary.
• there are some other points I'm unsure of, but I can't think of them right now

And here's the build finally:

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.34
DDO Character Planner Home Page

Level 20 True Neutral Drow Female
(1 Rogue \ 19 Wizard) 
Hit Points: 204
Spell Points: 1705 
BAB: 9\9\14
Fortitude: 8
Reflex: 8
Will: 10

                  Starting            Ending          Feat/Enhancement
Abilities        Base Stats         Base Stats         Modified Stats
(28 Point)       (Level 1)          (Level 20)           (Level 20)
Strength              8                  8                    8
Dexterity            10                 10                   10
Constitution         14                 14                   14
Intelligence         20                 27                   30
Wisdom                8                  8                    8
Charisma             12                 12                   12

Tomes Used
+2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 7

                  Starting            Ending          Feat/Enhancement
                 Base Skills        Base Skills        Modified Skills
Skills           (Level 1)          (Level 20)          (Level 20)
Balance               4                  4                    4
Bluff                 1                  1                    1
Concentration         4                 16                   16
Diplomacy             5                  5                    5
Disable Device        9                 33                   33
Haggle                5                  5                    5
Heal                  1                  1                    1
Hide                  0                  0                    0
Intimidate            1                  1                    1
Jump                  3                  3                    3
Listen               -1                 -1                    1
Move Silently         0                  0                    0
Open Lock             4                  4                    4
Perform               n/a               n/a                   n/a
Repair                5                 10                   10
Search                9                 33                   35
Spot                  3                 22                   26
Swim                  3                  3                    3
Tumble                4                  4                    4
Use Magic Device      5                 24                   24

Level 1 (Rogue)
Skill: Balance (+4)
Skill: Concentration (+2)
Skill: Diplomacy (+4)
Skill: Disable Device (+4)
Skill: Haggle (+4)
Skill: Heal (+2)
Skill: Jump (+4)
Skill: Open Lock (+4)
Skill: Search (+4)
Skill: Spot (+4)
Skill: Swim (+4)
Skill: Tumble (+4)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+4)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness
Feat: (Automatic) Attack
Feat: (Automatic) Drow Spell Resistance
Feat: (Automatic) Elven Keen Senses
Feat: (Automatic) Enchantment Save Bonus
Feat: (Automatic) Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Shuriken
Feat: (Automatic) Heroic Durability
Feat: (Automatic) Immunity to Sleep
Feat: (Automatic) Light Armor Proficiency
Feat: (Automatic) Martial Weapon Proficiency: Rapier
Feat: (Automatic) Martial Weapon Proficiency: Shortsword
Feat: (Automatic) Martial Weapon Proficiency: Shortbow
Feat: (Automatic) Simple Weapon Proficiency
Feat: (Automatic) Sneak
Feat: (Automatic) Sneak Attack
Feat: (Automatic) Spell Save Bonus
Feat: (Automatic) Trapfinding
Enhancement: Rogue Skill Boost I
Enhancement: Rogue Improved Trap Sense I


Level 2 (Wizard)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Feat: (Wizard Bonus) Mental Toughness
Feat: (Automatic) Dismiss Charm
Feat: (Automatic) Inscribe Scroll
Feat: (Automatic) Magical Training
Spell (1): Ray of Enfeeblement
Spell (1): Obscuring Mist
Spell (1): Magic Missle
Spell (1): Mage Armor
Spell (1): Jump
Spell (1): Feather Fall
Spell (1): Expeditious Retreat
Spell (1): Detect Secret Doors
Enhancement: Wizard Energy of the Scholar I


Level 3 (Wizard)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Feat: (Selected) Quicken Spell
Feat: (Automatic) Defensive Fighting
Feat: (Automatic) Sunder
Feat: (Automatic) Trip
Spell (1): Acid Spray
Spell (1): Hypnotism
Enhancement: Wizard Improved Quickening I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Wizard Intelligence I
Enhancement: Wizard Wand Mastery I


Level 4 (Wizard)
Ability Raise: INT
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Spell (2): Blur
Spell (2): Scorching Ray
Enhancement: Elven Keen Eyes I
Enhancement: Rogue Spot I
Enhancement: Wizard Lineage of Elements I
Enhancement: Wizard Elemental Manipulation I


Level 5 (Wizard)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Spell (2): Invisibility
Spell (2): Knock
Enhancement: Wizard Elemental Manipulation II


Level 6 (Wizard)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Feat: (Selected) Extend Spell
Feat: (Wizard Bonus) Spell Focus: Necromancy
Spell (3): Haste
Spell (3): Fireball
Enhancement: Wizard Lineage of Deadly Elements I
Enhancement: Wizard Energy of the Scholar II
Enhancement: Wizard Wand Mastery II


Level 7 (Wizard)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Spell (3): Displacement
Spell (3): Protection From Energy
Enhancement: Wizard Intelligence II
Enhancement: Wizard Pale Master I


Level 8 (Wizard)
Ability Raise: INT
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1.5)
Spell (4): Wall of Fire
Spell (4): Enervation
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II


Level 9 (Wizard)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1.5)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Mental Toughness
Spell (4): Stoneskin
Spell (4): Ice Storm
Enhancement: Wizard Improved Quickening II
Enhancement: Wizard Spell Penetration I


Level 10 (Wizard)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1.5)
Spell (5): Teleport
Spell (5): Cloudkill
Enhancement: Wizard Energy of the Scholar III


Level 11 (Wizard)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1.5)
Feat: (Wizard Bonus) Empower Spell


Level 12 (Wizard)
Ability Raise: INT
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1.5)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Spell Focus: Necromancy
Spell (6): Disintegrate
Spell (6): Greater Heroism
Enhancement: Wizard Improved Quickening III


Level 13 (Wizard)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1.5)
Spell (6): Undead to Death
Spell (6): Stone to Flesh
Enhancement: Shroud of the Lich
Enhancement: Wizard Pale Master II


Level 14 (Wizard)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Spell (7): Finger of Death
Spell (7): Banishment
Enhancement: Wizard Intelligence III


Level 15 (Wizard)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Spell Penetration
Spell (7): Delayed Blast Fireball
Spell (7): Control Undead
Enhancement: Wizard Spell Penetration II


Level 16 (Wizard)
Ability Raise: INT
Skill: Concentration (+2)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Wizard Bonus) Heighten Spell
Spell (8): Trap the Soul
Spell (8): Horrid Wilting
Enhancement: Wizard Energy of the Scholar IV


Level 17 (Wizard)
Skill: Concentration (+2)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Spell (8): Polar Ray
Spell (8): Sunburst
Enhancement: Wizard Wand Mastery III


Level 18 (Wizard)
Skill: Concentration (+2)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Spell Penetration
Spell (9): Wail of the Banshee
Spell (9): Energy Drain


Level 19 (Wizard)
Skill: Concentration (+2)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Spell (9): Power Word: Kill
Spell (9): Meteor Swarm
Enhancement: Wizard Spell Penetration III
Enhancement: Wizard Pale Master III


Level 20 (Wizard)
Ability Raise: INT
Skill: Concentration (+2)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Spell (8): Power Word: Stun
Spell (7): Greater Teleport
Enhancement: Wizard Improved Empowering I
Enhancement: Wizard Wand Mastery IV

So long,
Goodspeed

[Beherit_Baphomar]

Here's yer problems. Two levels of rogue will give you evasion. Being Warforged gives you awesome self healing. Being Pale Master makes you gimp.

But it seems you want to have a RP/Flavor build. In which case build what you want and don't even worry about coming to the forums for advice.

[Dr.Goodspeed]

Here's yer problems. Two levels of rogue will give you evasion. Being Warforged gives you awesome self healing. Being Pale Master makes you gimp.

But it seems you want to have a RP/Flavor build. In which case build what you want and don't even worry about coming to the forums for advice.

Why does Pale Master make me gimp? Explain plz. Is there a reason not to go Pale Master if you're going Necro? As I understand it, there are two main paths to take as a wiz. Either you go for high dps or instant kill/level drain. Am I wrong?

The reasons are partially personal, that's true. I just hate WFs as a race, but especially when they're casters, and ESPECIALLY when they're sorcerors... Apart from that, I wanted the +1 skill point and the +1 DC. Makes sense when using instant kill spells, doesn't it?

I was thinking about taking another rogue level at 20 but decided against it for now because that'd be another lost DC.


So long,
Goodspeed

[Jakarr]

Here's yer problems. Two levels of rogue will give you evasion. Being Warforged gives you awesome self healing. Being Pale Master makes you gimp.

But it seems you want to have a RP/Flavor build. In which case build what you want and don't even worry about coming to the forums for advice.

What he said.




Thou I will tell ya my impression of Pale Masters when I grp with em. I see the guy summon a Skelly and then I noticed how little the wizard is doing in general to help the grp(Haste, maybe a blur, getting himself killed etc)....and he goes on my list.

[Dr.Goodspeed]

What he said.




Thou I will tell ya my impression of Pale Masters when I grp with em. I see the guy summon a Skelly and then I noticed how little the wizard is doing in general to help the grp(Haste, maybe a blur, getting himself killed etc)....and he goes on my list.

I won't take the summoning enhancements obviously..... have you even looked at the build?

[Beherit_Baphomar]

Instakill spells are awesome up till a certain point. After that you may as well be using magic missile wands, in fact wands will actually be more useful. With all the blanket immunities at higher levels and the rediculous saves mobs have a necro spec'd caster is a exercise in futility. You'll be nothing but frustrated.

Now add to that Pale master and now you've no self healing, deathward is to be feared and clerics/fvs have to carry a spell JUST for you and you've got useless personified.

Granted, PM is supposed to be getting some love in the future but I don't know how much it will do to fix them.

[Jakarr]

Why does Pale Master make me gimp? Explain plz. Is there a reason not to go Pale Master if you're going Necro? As I understand it, there are two main paths to take as a wiz. Either you go for high dps or instant kill/level drain. Am I wrong?

The reasons are partially personal, that's true. I just hate WFs as a race, but especially when they're casters, and ESPECIALLY when they're sorcerors... Apart from that, I wanted the +1 skill point and the +1 DC. Makes sense when using instant kill spells, doesn't it?

I was thinking about taking another rogue level at 20 but decided against it for now because that'd be another lost DC.


So long,
Goodspeed

Pale Masters are gimp b/c the forms are not worth it and the same goes for the summonings. Thou if you are going with the Necro Focus feats it doesn't hurt to go Pale Master just b/c you can for flaver <shrug>. Thou really you gain almost nothing from it.

And most of the time when someone says they are making a palemaster or are a palemaster we as a community instantly think of that wizard who was in our grp last night runnings around with 2 summons casting scorching ray getting agro and dieing. Along with no Hasting, Firewalling, Blur/Displancement, etc.

Overall you can do this build you posted np, go 18 wizard/2 rogue or go 20 wizard. I will say I'd take the evasion anyday thou. If you go 2 rogue make sure to get insightful reflex its a must or dont even bother with going rogue.


Side thought what is this hate towards WF are you one of those ppl that think they are "robots"?

[Beherit_Baphomar]

I won't take the summoning enhancements obviously..... have you even looked at the build?

He doesn't have to look at the build. A non-WF Pale Master wiz/rogue with only one level of rogue is suboptimal.

And that's why I say go build what you want to build, the advice you'll find here will be mainly min/max advice.

[Dr.Goodspeed]

He doesn't have to look at the build. A non-WF Pale Master wiz/rogue with only one level of rogue is suboptimal.

And that's why I say go build what you want to build, the advice you'll find here will be mainly min/max advice.

Well, instead of just saying "that build is ****" you could help me optimize it. And you still didn't explain WHY this build is ****. The "only" advantage a WF has is the self healing w/o UMD, which is significant, I know that. But I can't imagine "not being WF" changes a char from Uber to Gimp.

An example of some good advice would have been: "You should definitely take another level of rogue, for reasons X and Y."


So long,
Goodspeed

[Beherit_Baphomar]

No, lemme be clear here. The build isn't ****. The builds a great idea. But the game doesn't allow it to be great. And maybe you replied before my other post went throo?

[Aspenor]

btw you don't lose any DC for another level of rogue. you do lose 1 point of spell penetration, though.

[Dr.Goodspeed]

No, lemme be clear here. The build isn't ****. The builds a great idea. But the game doesn't allow it to be great. And maybe you replied before my other post went throo?

Yup, replied too quickly sry. And I also missed Jakarr's 2nd post entirely :> Those explains some points at the very least, thx.

btw you don't lose any DC for another level of rogue. you do lose 1 point of spell penetration, though.

Ah, ok. Very nice. I'll definitely take another rogue level at some point then.

Side thought what is this hate towards WF are you one of those ppl that think they are "robots"?

Well, first of all I just don't like their appearance. Secondly, I don't like the fact they're available as a race at all. Imho they got a little too much love from the developers* and there would have been a bazillion better choices for another race than WF.

* Example: WF are so good as race, especially because of their self-healing obviously, that people play WF sorcerors although they got a malus to Charisma.


So long,
Goodspeed

[Jakarr]

Well, instead of just saying "that build is ****" you could help me optimize it. And you still didn't explain WHY this build is ****. The "only" advantage a WF has is the self healing w/o UMD, which is significant, I know that. But I can't imagine "not being WF" changes a char from Uber to Gimp.

An example of some good advice would have been: "You should definitely take another level of rogue, for reasons X and Y."


So long,
Goodspeed

Like I said in my previous post. Only reason to go rogue as a Wizard is for evasion the rest is cheese. So go 18 Wiz/2 Rogue and make sure to take Insightful Reflex(its a must or dont go rogue) Like Asp said you only lose 1 SP. Take out MT and IMT and take IR and Max(a Arcane without Max is lulz). That would be how I would Max it. Also take those 2 pnts out of dex and drop em into Str(encumbrance) or Cha(I'd prob go this route)

And we used the word gimp towards the thought of a Pale Master in DDO(which never really works out like you planned)

Also you must not know about your WF, Advantages=Self-Healing, Not being Energy Drained, Imm to Poison, Para, Disease, not having to wear ac bracers, More Con. Just a few things off the top of my head, Not saying go WF just tellin ya there advantages.

[Aspenor]

Only reason to go rogue as a Wizard is for evasion the rest is cheese.

Not entirely true, UMD is another useful thing to have if you've got rogue levels. However, to get a useful UMD for healing oneself is going to take a lot of hard to acquire and sought after loot.

[Dr.Goodspeed]

Like I said in my previous post. Only reason to go rogue as a Wizard is for evasion the rest is cheese. So go 18 Wiz/2 Rogue and make sure to take Insightful Reflex(its a must or dont go rogue) Like Asp said you only lose 1 SP. Take out MT and IMT and take IR and Max(a Arcane without Max is lulz). That would be how I would Max it. Also take those 2 pnts out of dex and drop em into Str(encumbrance) or Cha(I'd prob go this route)

And we used the word gimp towards the thought of a Pale Master in DDO(which never really works out like you planned)

Also you must not know about your WF, Advantages=Self-Healing, Not being Energy Drained, Imm to Poison, Para, Disease, not having to wear ac bracers, More Con. Just a few things off the top of my head, Not saying go WF just tellin ya there advantages.

Don't know if I alrdy said it or not, but I'm perfectly aware of all the WF advantages, which is, as I explained above, part of the reason I hate that race so much.

I can't take 2 points out of dex, because it's a drow. That's what I'm talking about... Casters these days are so focused on WF that they forget simple things like that.

Take out MT and IMT? Fine with me I guess, but aren't wizards prone to running into mana problems?

Furthermore I agree with Aspenor on the rogue thing. For me the biggest advantage of taking a rogue level or two is the UMD to make up for the lack of self-healing ability compared to WF casters. I don't agree with the "a lot of hard to acquire and sought after loot" part though. It's fairly easy to get decent enough UMD to self-healf actually. I got some Golden Cartouches banked(lvl 7), the best +cha gear for every level and eagle's splendor clickies for the lower levels. Additionally I'll be able to self-buff heroism & GH at will.


So long,
Goodspeed

[Arkat]

Just thought I'd drop in and point out a fact about EPIC content if you even care about it.

In EPIC content I have NEVER seen an instakill spell (FoD, Destruction) or effect (Vorpal) work...ever.

[Dr.Goodspeed]

Just thought I'd drop in and point out a fact about EPIC content if you even care about it.

In EPIC content I have NEVER seen an instakill spell (FoD, Destruction) or effect (Vorpal) work...ever.

Thx, good point.

Coupled with what Baphomar wrote about high end monster immunities and saves, I'll consider dropping the idea of a Pale Master altogether... If the PM does get some love in of the next updates, I can always lesser reincarnate I guess.

What spell focuses would recommend instead? Or should I take none at all then? And what type of dmg spells should I focus on? Fire/Cold(obviously very powerful coupled with firewall etc.) or Acid/Lightning? I suppose I already know the answer but I just like acid and lightning dmg for some reason :>

What about my questions about concentration? Will I be fine without it using Quicken Spell when necessary, or should I definitely max it out?


So long,
Goodspeed

[Anneliese]

#1 Max Concentration. Quicken doesnt work on scrolls.

#2 Take Maximize. Maximized Empowered Extended Firewalls are awesome.

#3 With Insightful Reflexes and Evasion, you will survive a lot more.

#4 At the moment, Pale Master is mostly for RP-flavor. If you had taken the SF feats anyway get it, but else not..

Feat list to consider:
Toughness (HP)
Insightful Reflexes (Saves)
Maximize, Empower, Extend (Firewall)
Quicken (no interruption from damage)
Heighten (Web)
Mental T /IMT (SP)
Spell Pen/GSP
-----
11 Feats

You get 7 + 4 Wizard Bonus Feats..none left for Spell Focus.

--------------------

Another thing to consider: The grind for UMD can be hard. You could start with 16 Charisma and 12 con for that. Maybe even drop IMT or GSP and get SF:UMD. If you plan to reincarnate one day, you can undo that once you get all the raid items etc.

[WolfSpirit]

. I just hate WFs as a race, but especially when they're casters, and ESPECIALLY when they're sorcerors...

-
WOW, really?
More WF raceism?
You still have alot to learn about this game my friend.
WF Sorcs are CRAZY deadly.
Maxed CHA does NOT make the best possible Class.
WF Sorc gets only -4 Lower DC than a Drow, which is the Max possible. Thats only -2 from any other Race. Couple that with Fast healing, High CON and the ability to PULL mobs INTO your FW for max Destruction, instead of Diplo things away from your VERY low CON Drow = VERY high survivability.
I've built LOTS of Arcane casters. Done the Drow 14/2 Wiz (That was the level cap then) and it was good. I truly deleted that character and rerolled as Warforged. Yes, they are ugly but as an Arcane class, they are Top Dog, hands down.
But I actually don't play that one, because as a Sorc, they are SO much fun. I've never ever had a better surviving character, that pulles the party our of certain wipe, many times. Fast Casting and High Spell Points of the Sorc combined with Warforged Immunities and Very great Hitpoints and still an awesome UMD (again, only a few points off max really). You just have a hard time killing WF sorcs, even if you get right up on them. They repair FAST and FULL with LOTS of HP.
But these statements are not intended to encourage you to make WF. Lots of new people still make bad ones, its true. But it will hopefully get you to overlook the uglyness and often missplayed WF race, that always get the race hate.
-
Though as a rule, I don't care to play WF on any other class but arcane. The healing wack they take make them very dissliked by many players.

[Dr.Goodspeed]

-
WOW, really?
More WF raceism?
You still have alot to learn about this game my friend.
WF Sorcs are CRAZY deadly.
Maxed CHA does NOT make the best possible Class.
WF Sorc gets only -4 Lower DC than a Drow, which is the Max possible. Thats only -2 from any other Race. Couple that with Fast healing, High CON and the ability to PULL mobs INTO your FW for max Destruction, instead of Diplo things away from your VERY low CON Drow = VERY high survivability.
I've built LOTS of Arcane casters. Done the Drow 14/2 Wiz (That was the level cap then) and it was good. I truly deleted that character and rerolled as Warforged. Yes, they are ugly but as an Arcane class, they are Top Dog, hands down.
But I actually don't play that one, because as a Sorc, they are SO much fun. I've never ever had a better surviving character, that pulles the party our of certain wipe, many times. Fast Casting and High Spell Points of the Sorc combined with Warforged Immunities and Very great Hitpoints and still an awesome UMD (again, only a few points off max really). You just have a hard time killing WF sorcs, even if you get right up on them. They repair FAST and FULL with LOTS of HP.
But these statements are not intended to encourage you to make WF. Lots of new people still make bad ones, its true. But it will hopefully get you to overlook the uglyness and often missplayed WF race, that always get the race hate.
-
Though as a rule, I don't care to play WF on any other class but arcane. The healing wack they take make them very dissliked by many players.

Please read my reasoning as to why I hate WF before useless posts like this. Their appearance is just part of the reason I don't like them. The main reason I don't like them is not that they aren't good, but that they're actually too good as a race imho.