Deepwood sniper any good?

[Emili]

I agree that the brunt of the DWS line would need to be passive (rather than clickies) in order to really make it worthwhile.



While I like the basic idea, I think perhaps with the numbers you have put out there it becomes overpowered. I'm thinking especially of the stacking crit range & crit multiplier. Let's say you have someone using a Silver Longbow (seems to be the bow of choice for most archery types up until late endgame). That bow has a base crit range of 19-20/x3. Add in the feat for Improved Crit: Ranged, that bow now has a crit range of 17-20/x3. Now looking at your Tier II DWS mods, it would become 15-20/x5.

THEN if you add on top of that that every crit is a crippling shot, you are basically having an archer who is crippling mobs 1 out of every 3 shots. (Of course, with a x5 multiplier probably not many are getting crippled as they are likely being 1-shotted anyways).

I would suggest that maybe the answer to this line is not simply upping the DPS to crazy levels via crit range & crit multipliers, but rather being a little more creative. Maybe give the DWS a thief-like extra "backstab" damage that applies significant extra damage when the mob does not see the attack coming. (Unlike the thief backstab damage, this would have to have no distance limitation since the whole point of the DWS is to be attacking from a great distance, it seems to me). Or heck, maybe that's the solution: give the DWS a sort of reverse-Point-Blank-Shot bonus, where the player gets a significant damage bonus when the mob is more than "x" feet away.

Plus there should be some non-DPS related perks. DWS I gives a bonus to hide & move silently (correct?) Maybe keep increasing that with each tier (say +5 to each at Tier II and +10 to each at Tier III, with these bonuses stacking with any gear-based bonuses the player has). I would also love to see the DWS get some sort of a speed boost when sneaking (akin to the Rogue Sneak Attack Speed enhancement); say a 10% boost in sneaking speed at each of the three tiers (so a total of 30% sneak speed boost at Tier III).

Heck, maybe really think outside the box and add some sort of passive HP-regen while in outdoor (wilderness) areas. (+1 hp/min at tier I, +3 at tier II, and +5 at tier III or something like that). The theory would be that someone who is such an expert in the "deep woods" is able to find naturally-occurring healing herbs while in the wild. Another possibility is giving the DWS some sort of "uber" animal empathy skill. I'm not exactly sure what that means (because I think animal empathy as it is now basically sucks). Maybe a "no fail" animal empathy (once per minute?) at tier III? Or maybe make it so the animal empathy applies to magical/outsider beasts as well as "natural" beasts (?). Maybe all that is worthless, I'm just sort of thinking out loud.

Yet another option is to eventually give the DWS extra immunity to (non-spell) poisons. Maybe give DWS a +2 to all saving throws versus non-magical poisons at Tier I, +5 to saves against non-magical poisons at Tier II, and complete immunity to non-magical poisons at Tier III.

Seen in this light, you leave AA as the prestige line that is really all about a focus on pure bow DPS. (AA might need some additional buffs in order to really do this, but that's a different conversation). While DWS becomes the prestige line that becomes the expert soloing line; yes it increases DPS some (but not as much as AA) but also does a number of things to increase survivability. As opposed to, AA increases DPS through magical arrows, and DWS increases DPS through criticals. I find that pretty boring, it's basically two prestige lines doing the same thing in only slightly different ways.

Yes may have been a little generous ... but is only slightly above AA output. the X multiplier probably need not be so strong across the board and apply moreso as the berzerker's... it is a snipper however and should probably be treated more as such.

What may seem overpowered as the crit threat and multiplier tapers off tremendously at elite high levels as the mob start to get fortification. Come raid end-boss where they have tens of thousands (if not above 100 thousand) of hit points only few things matter. Also, as stands berzerkers, kensai and many classes one or two hit trash mob as is... all but epic does this occur and there - a deepwoods would have to use many hundreds arrows per mob as is.

+Hide and move silently in this game is typically used for stone retrieval at lower levels (Even most high end assiasins take only take that PrE for the level 18 feature rather then the assasinate - because even with faster sneaking most good groups move at breathtaking speeds). Poison immunity a nice gesture however near everyone is immune to poison via item, race or - as rangers carry - the spell. Rangers in themselves are easily survivable without much fluff... heck build umd into one and they need noone as is, Solo is achieveable easily on any character ... can take a Barbarian into Sins and solo it should I want. Deepwood would still be a black-sheep pre.

Currently there are two paths for rangers Tempest and AA - Deepwoods being as relivant and next to no PrE at all. Ranged combat in itself until the recent AA changes was exclusive use to manyshot and in many ways still is... the best of AA or Deepwoods also carry IC : (something else) on top of IC : ranged... Why? Well 43 (50 with capstone) attacks per min is not so cut and dry with the output of the 132 attacks per minute of a melee. Nor do I think it should be as there is far less jepardy from shooting Harry from across the room in part four of shroud... manyshot as a burst is devastating... even moreso on an AA. Sport an AA with a lightning II and it clears things up quick with manyshot... manyshot cooldown on and they take to thier twf.

[Schmoe]

I started with a DWS, because like many others, I really like the concept. By the time I had reached 12th level or so, I was pretty disappointed with it, both in the existing Tier 1 PrE and with the lack of any hint of near-term development on the prestige line, so I re-specced a few feats into Tempest.

Don't get me wrong, the Sniper Shot is a fun little toy, especially with Manyshot and a Silver Longbow (crit of 15-20/x4!). However, it is too infrequent and too little to really amount to much.

I still like my idea for a stance at Tier II that has a 60 second cooldown, increases crit multiplier by +1, auto-confirms critical threats, and is broken by moving. Anyway, there are a lot of good ideas for how to improve and flesh-out the DWS, but given the state of PrE's for other classes, it's extremely unlikely we'll see any further work on the DWS for quite some time.

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Also, for those who are wondering, the crit range with Sniper Shot works out as follows, tested and confirmed:

Normal Longbow: 20/x3
add Sniper Shot (+1): 19-20/x4
add Improved Critical: 17-20/x4

Silver Longbow: 19-20/x3
add Sniper Shot (+1): 18-20/x4
add Improved Critical: 15-20/x4

[sirdanile]

A couple idea for dws that passed through my head.

1. Increase running speed 10% taking additional -4 to hit.
2. Decrease fire rate increase damage
3. Power attack type feat that applies to ranged as a pre req for tier 3, possibly requiring shot on the run.
4. Crit range/multiplier bonus for tier 2 and/or 3