Is DDO A Grind Game, or Not?

[Khelden]

I don't consider DDO a grinding game so far... I did not do everything, but at the moment, it is wayyyyyyyyyyy behind many games I've played grind-wise [aye, did some korean-translated games too ^^]

[AylinIsAwesome]

I haven't read the entire thread (much too late at night and it's quite long), but I will say I want less grind. Not no grind, but less.

Three of my characters now each have over 3000 Undead kills in the Sands...and I've yet to pull a Bloodstone. My Paladin has done around 200 runs so far in Reaver's Reach...still don't have any of the effects I want on the DT armour.


I would like to see an incremental increase in the drop rates of named items based on how many times you've completed the quest (for items that drop in quests) or how many times you've ransacked the chest (Slayer area drops). Not to make it "guaranteed" that you'll get it, but if an item normally has a 2% drop rate, after ransacking the chest 10 times that percentage could go up to say 4%. Another 10 ransacks, 6% now. Capping at maybe a 10% drop rate. Someone who has a better knowledge than I would need to come up with actual numbers though.

But I think that giving players a better chance to find the item after so many runs would make things feel a lot less "grindy". It could easily be explained by your character "learning what to look for" in the quest eventually, or something like that.

[Khelden]

Hehe, would be cool to have a skill like "Treasure Finding"

[Folonius]

I'm relativly new to the DDO scene. I played in the very early stages when they said PvP wasn't going to be part of this game, and the lack of content, lack of players, dull content turned me away. I came back a few months ago to find that the game was F2P, and after about two weeks into it, went P2P. My knowledge of the game isn't overly extensive, but I come from a long line of previous MMO's for the last 16 years.

<...>
Prevention and Deterrence
There is a bonus for completing a quest for the first time on a particular difficulty. This suggests to players that they will be rewarded for not getting stuck in a rut, grinding.

There is a penalty for repetition of the same quest, which does not diminish over time. Eventually repetition will result in 0 xp awarded. Again, this deters grinding.

Looting the same chests excessively results in a reduced reward, and then no reward which lasts for a week. This suggests that one should not grind as well, but allows for an eventual return to old stomping/looting grounds.

IMO, the grind should be stopped on the journey to level 20. The above listed does that.

Promotion and Requirements
In the last two years, there has been a trend with quests, requiring a player to run the same quest an excessive number of times. Reaver's Refuge, Meridia/Shroud, Necropolis IV, Amrath, Inspired Quarter, Dreaming Dark... in fact, it seems that every quest since Gianthold, which was on the very edge itself, has required and promoted the grind.

<...>

I remember a time when I once said... "You know why I love DDO...? Because I never feel like I am grinding." That DDO is dead.

Is this a grinding game, or is it not, because if it is... I may just leave and never come back again... and stop recommending that my friends try it out, and come join the server on which I play...

The grinding doesn't come into play until you hit level 20. In my short stay here, I've been jumping from one zone to another, flagging each character for raids. I'm not to worried about grinding because the equipment that drops is good enough to get me to level 20. I don't need any of the uber loot. When I hit level 20, maybe I'll grind for what's needed to get the uber loots, but for now, I'll just run quests that give me xp. When I get higher than a -10% xp bonus for repeating a quest, I'll move on to a different zone.

So the question is .... To grind, or not to grind?

The decision is up to the individual player. I don't grind on levels 1-19 ... I don't have a level 20 yet, but I'm one level from 20.

[Pyromaniac]

Yes DDO is a grind if you want it to be. Want to do epic, start grinding. Doing normal? Pretty minimal grind.

[Velexia]

In the last week I've run Epic Vault of Night three times, and Epic Demon Queen one time. Every single time I've gotten an Epic Raid token (except the first one, didn't know that the purple thing on top was my raid token), and a little bonus in the chest every single time. (Chaosblade, Cloak of the Silver Concord, Shard of the Bloodstone, Seal of the Kundarak Delving suit, etc)

So, Epic doesn't feel like a grind to me at all. That could possibly be because I only do Epic Raids with my guild, and we rock.

In the last week I ran SoS twice and Prey on the Hunter about 12 times. Nothing to show for it, nothing at all. That feels very much like a grind.

I've also run the Shroud circuit with my three high level characters, I've collected some Shroud ingredients, but not enough to make anything just yet, feels less grindy than SoS, but certainly some.

Oh, and I just want to say, wow that was amazing tonight in Epic VoN. ThAC0 is the best ^_~

[Velexia]

By the way, how much the XP from slayer counts on a TR levelling? I personally like slayers (still doing them at level cap), but it is another form of grinding, from a certain point of view.

Side note: I like when things can be farmed in different way, like the relics in Gianthold. Everything (including large ingredients, although with a very low drop rate) should be found in rare chests.

I think it would be nice if we got Slayer rewards for killing monsters inside of quests, it would definitely be a much better way of getting players to kill off the monsters they encounter than Dungeon Alert.

Then of course there is the "what about the capped characters?" retort, to which I say another nice feature would be tying the loot found in chests to the percentage of monsters dealt with. After all, isn't this chest mechanic basically just a way of preventing processor clutter with each monster dropping loot?

The scenario here is... Players get Slayer credit for dropping monsters in quests, for XP, and additionally, if they kill nothing and loot a chest they get lower than normal loot... If they kill a standard amount of enemies they get standard loot, and if they go for conquest they get extra loot!

I see a problem with this though... players holding chests closed until the very end and then going back through and looting with this conquest bonus loot... so maybe just make specific groups of enemies in specific areas tied to the amount of loot in relevant chests. Possibly also have the end reward affected...? Would that make sense and is it possible...?

[Velexia]

Building on this, another option to make Reaver's Refuge less of a grind and more interesting. Make the three craft runes Bound to Account. Leave the Draconic Runes Bound to Character.

That way if you find a stack of +5 Resists on one character you can give it to another character. Restricting the Draconic, means armor can not be made for a character until they have flagged for SOS.

You can't talk to the guy to get armor until you have completed SoS anyway, regardless of how many runes you have.

[sirgog]

In the last week I've run Epic Vault of Night three times, and Epic Demon Queen one time. Every single time I've gotten an Epic Raid token (except the first one, didn't know that the purple thing on top was my raid token), and a little bonus in the chest every single time. (Chaosblade, Cloak of the Silver Concord, Shard of the Bloodstone, Seal of the Kundarak Delving suit, etc)

So, Epic doesn't feel like a grind to me at all. That could possibly be because I only do Epic Raids with my guild, and we rock.

In the last week I ran SoS twice and Prey on the Hunter about 12 times. Nothing to show for it, nothing at all. That feels very much like a grind.

I've also run the Shroud circuit with my three high level characters, I've collected some Shroud ingredients, but not enough to make anything just yet, feels less grindy than SoS, but certainly some.

Oh, and I just want to say, wow that was amazing tonight in Epic VoN. ThAC0 is the best ^_~

That's pretty exceptional luck in the Epics. I've run about 30-40 Epic Dungeons and have one item from them - I'd have more available if I wanted them (i.e. if I wanted an Adherent's Pendant Epic I could make it by buying the scroll).

[emptysands]

You can't talk to the guy to get armor until you have completed SoS anyway, regardless of how many runes you have.

Exactly. Should not remove the need to run the quests in order to get the reward. But reducing the need to run "each" character though the same grind would be nice.

[Artos_Fabril]

Then of course there is the "what about the capped characters?" retort, to which I say another nice feature would be tying the loot found in chests to the percentage of monsters dealt with. After all, isn't this chest mechanic basically just a way of preventing processor clutter with each monster dropping loot?

The scenario here is... Players get Slayer credit for dropping monsters in quests, for XP, and additionally, if they kill nothing and loot a chest they get lower than normal loot... If they kill a standard amount of enemies they get standard loot, and if they go for conquest they get extra loot!

I see a problem with this though... players holding chests closed until the very end and then going back through and looting with this conquest bonus loot... so maybe just make specific groups of enemies in specific areas tied to the amount of loot in relevant chests. Possibly also have the end reward affected...? Would that make sense and is it possible...?

This has gone completely off topic, but would your plan also improve the loot for the opposite end of the slayer spectrum (discreet, etc) as well?

[knightgf]

I believe that, in any MMORPG, repetition of certain content can be a good thing, especially for anything thats of superior quality.

However, DDO:EU proves to be the exception of 'good grinding'. This game goes WAY WAY too far with the grinding principle, and its mostly because the developers are too lazy(Or cant afford) to put more content in. They are pretty much like, "Ok, we REALLY are getting sick and tired of making new content, so we'll just make certain content repeatable to save us work. Grind away suckers!" It makes me mad that they do this.

With the new quests and all, I haven't seen as much unacceptable grinding. Its there, granted, but it can usually be tolerated. The pre-EU content was definately aimed towards grinding because the company was failing and tried to extend the length of their products in controversial ways. Still, I don't think DDO:EU should grind as it did in the past. We don't want to move in the direction of grinding again unless we release content even more epic than Shroud. And we also don't want to 'luck grind' like in Reavers Refuge, that is totally unacceptable.

[Velexia]

To update, I have been running Prey on the Hunter 3x a day about 4 days a week before and after this thread was made. I still have never seen the sovereign effect I am looking for.

=(

[SardaSlayer]

/signed for less grind

Unfortunately no new suggestions on how to accomplish that.

[Eladiun]

Every MMO is a grind game. The no grind experiment failed. RIP. Developers just cannot generate content at a high enough clip to keep a player base interested and motivated without the grind. Add in a year without any content and it exacerbates the problem. The only other mechanism that so far has proven effective is PVP and player ranks which in essence is a grind of it's own and totally out here.

[osirisisis]

/sighed

I talk alot about this in the opening of my post here

To me grind creates grind burn. I think grind burn is a major reason players leave.

Grind seems to be some corporate strategy to keep players playing and paying.... but I find this strategy a very poor choice in that it my make them play for X amount of time and then when burned enuff they leave. It seem to create a revoling door effect with population IE players come free to play they play and then pay and then a year or so in grind burn takes effect and they leave. It's like trying to full up a bucket with a hole in it.

Binding is the core of grind. If everything was unbound then players could trade which would create dramatically less grind, (I.E. U pull something you cant use but is great so you trade it for that thing you want), and also offer other entertainment ave. in commerce.

Binded Grind is an old idea that is a major factor in many MMO's failing. Most MMO's that have Binded Grind and have been around for more then 2 years are now hemeraging population. WOW is a great example of this.

Players don't want to grind they want to be entertained. With TR now in place there no reason to continue binded gear to keep players occupied grinding.

Turbine doesn't seem to agree, in they seem almost promote grind thro bind with 95% of high end gear being binded, and now even binding random named loot like the bauble and others.

Hopefully turbine will learn in time by un binding gear and dramatically decreasing grind that many less players will leave due to grind burn and the population bucket will fill up and reach new heights with entertained paying customers.

Or maybe not and DDO will grind its way where so many other MMO have gone and are going that promote binded grind in the past ........... and that's right to low population and sever shut down..... which is right where DDO was before turbine pulled the rabbit out of the hat with free to play and TR after making the biggest mistake in the games history by introducing the shroud crafting system and nerfing wounding of puncturing thus destroying the random loot system and giving players mindless portal beating with a binded clone and grind drone system....... a context that defines grind to a Tee.

Now with Free and TR approaching its first year we see population peaking and then starting to drop these last 2 months from grind burn.... I.E Free to play good bringing players in and Binded Grind bad making players leave hence the revolving door effect. Turbine Development team wake up and see that you can't be the best MMO in the world if you insist on follow in the fail binded grind system

[wax_on_wax_off]

I think the developers have consciously allowed people who want to grind to grind, and people who don't want to grind, to not grind.

Having the best gear in the game isn't really that important and if you really want it then id expect a bit of a grind.

My biggest gripe is that there isn't enough incentive to challenge yourself.
Why can't we get some bonuses for doing quests that are above the parties character level?

I suppose the obvious answer is that people who twink level up fast enough already.

Difficult to combat that but you won't get a fix on the question unless you get a solution to that.

Maybe we need a new difficulty setting where you can choose to go into a dungeon but can't take consumables or twinked items. Be much harder to complete and the ratio of time to effort wouldn't be worthwhile but it might satisfy some peoples craving for a challenge in each dungeon.

[D-molisher]

/ signed.

I hate the grind for gs components, havent even got boots for ToD on 1 char yet.
Chance i get boot are wery low, since basicly doing same stuff over and over like a broked cd playing >>> KILLS MY DDO FUNN.
So could you PLZ PLZ add some fun to do high lvl not grind some for years based- cause it will kill my funn in ddo otherwise eventually.
Grinding sux period.
So i spend my time TR�*ng my monk into a 40 point build - then i dont know what to do when done.
But gives me some to do till x-mas & hope update 6 actually adds some funn to do instead off grind based or epic ....

[Velexia]

This has gone completely off topic, but would your plan also improve the loot for the opposite end of the slayer spectrum (discreet, etc) as well?

That's easier to implement than one might think. Add a pick pocketing system, and not a trite one either, but with a single roll on the appropriate loot table for each pocket picked. Thus giving you the opportunity to pull say, a +1 tome from a Minotaur in Stormcleave, or a +5 Silver Longsword of Pure Good from an Orthon in The Devil You Know, etc.

[AyumiAmakusa]

Pretty much everything below level 10 is not a grind. This is Turbine's way of getting new players to get hooked to the game. Once they reach Gianthold, the grind starts to creep in. Players will be thinking, 'Well it's only 20 relics each, I'll just spend a day at most collecting them. How hard can it be?' (Similar argument can be used for Sentinels and Relic of Sovereign Past).

And then the real grind begins. Once you reach into the levels where you start collecting ingredients to craft items, you'll start losing track of how many times you've run that one quest over and over again. By then you'll be saying to yourself, 'I've already reached this far, just a little more and I'll be done'.

But you'll never be done, because after crafting that oh so Uber item that you worked so hard for, you'll be off working on the next and before you know it, they announce new content with even more grind.

And the cycle continues.