Which would you pick for your group? 12Barb/7Bard/1Rogue or 12Fighter/7B/1R?

[clericreborn]

Greetings,

My recent attempts at building a fun, solo MC character turned up the issue of whether or not it would be well received in a group. Thus I decided to compare these two character builds, and get your vote as to what would work best in a group.

GOAL: A survivable character with great rogue skills and crowd control, able to solo most content yet still able to contribute significantly to a group.

Note: the following factors in no equipment or tomes, just base stats from the character builder.

As this is primarily a solo character, both builds contain the following:
Bard 7 - Crowd Control and Buffs
32+ perform skill with Virtuoso, 39+ buffed

264 SP
LVL 1 Spells
Cure light wounds
Charm person
Feather fall
Focus Chant

LVL 2 Spells
Blur
Heroism
Rage
Fox's Cunning

Lvl 3 Spells
Good Hope
Displacement

1 Rogue - Disable/open lock/search 27/26/24+ Passive
Disable/open lock/search 36/33/33+ Buffed

However after that, the builds diverge. the Barbarian build gets Frenzied berserker II with maximum damage reduction boosts. As it's solo, I put feats into heavy armor and tower shield, and many AP into toughness to really give me a sturdy character. DPS should be decent, although admittedly not the greatest possible.

The Fighter build has slightly lower skills, but makes up for it with good defenses, having taken Stalwart Defender II, Combat expertise, dodge, and mobility boosted by enhancements, my AC should be quite respectable, possibly a viable main tank. Points have been put into making my trip solid as well.

Here are my current enhancement and feat lists below, although suggestions on changes are welcome

Barbarian:
404 HP
17 str 12 Dex 20 con 14 Int 8 Wis 18 CHA
Saves 15/12/13

Toughness
Power Attack
Heavy Armor Proficiency
Tower Shield Proficiency
Cleave
Skill-Perform
force of personality
nimble fingers

2 Human Adaptability Constitution I,
4 Human Greater Adaptability Charisma
2 Human Improved Recovery I,
1 Human Versatility I,
2 Human Versatility II,
3 Human Versatility III,
4 Human Versatility IV,
1 Bard Extra Song I,
4 Bard Virtuoso I,
1 Bard Perform I,
2 Bard Perform II,
2 Bard Charisma I,
4 Bard Charisma II,
2 Bard Music of the Dead,
1 Bard wand/scroll mastery 1
1 Rogue Disable Device I,
1 Rogue Open Lock I,
2 Barbarian Improved Damage Reduction I,
1 Barbarian Damage Reduction Boost I,
2 Barbarian Damage Reduction Boost II,
3 Barbarian Damage Reduction boost III
4 Barbarian Damage Reduction boost IV
1 Barbarian Extend Rage I,
2 Barbarian Constitution I,
4 Barbarian constitution 2
1 Barbarian Toughness I,
2 Barbarian Toughness II,
3 Barbarian toughness III
1 Barbarian Sprint Boost 1
1 Racial Toughness I,
2 Racial Toughness II,
3 Racial Toughness III,
1 Barbarian Power Attack 1
1 Barbarian Power rage 1
1 Barbarian Damage Boost 1
2 Barbarian Damage Boost 2
4 Barbarian Frenzied Berserker 1
2 Barbarian Frenzied Berserker 2


Fighter
370 Hit points
17 Str 12 Dex 20 Con 14 Int 8 Wis 18 Cha
Saves 15/12/12

Toughness
Skill-Perform
*Skill-Disable Device
*Skill-Open Lock
*Skill-Search
*Skill-UMD
force of personality
nimble fingers

*(Note on the above. in order to maximize this character for solo-play, and to make up for fewer skill points, I needed to take these feats. Limitation of fighter's role in the build, but class feats below make up for it).

Combat Expertise
dodge
mobility
Improved Trip
Power Attack
Cleave
Great Cleave

2 Human Adaptability Constitution I,
4 Human Greater Adaptability Charisma
2 Human Improved Recovery I,
1 Human Versatility I,
2 Human Versatility II,
3 Human Versatility III,
4 Human Versatility IV,
1 Bard Extra Song I,
4 Bard Virtuoso I,
1 Bard Perform I,
2 Bard Perform II,
2 Bard Charisma I,
4 Bard Charisma II,
2 Bard Music of the Dead,
1 Bard wand/scroll mastery 1
1 Rogue Disable Device I,
1 Rogue Open Lock I,
1 Racial Toughness I,
2 Racial Toughness II,
3 Racial Toughness III,
1 Fighter Armor Class Boost I
2 Fighter Armor Class Boost II
3 Fighter Armor Class Boost III
1 Fighter Intimidate I
2 Fighter Intimidate II
2 Fighter Strength 1
4 Fighter Strength 2
1 Fighter Toughness I
2 Fighter Toughness II
3 Fighter Toughness III
1 Fighter Item Defense 1
2 Fighter Mobility 1
4 Fighter Mobility II
1 Fighter Strategy (Trip) I
2 Fighter Strategy (Trip) II
3 Fighter Strategy (Trip) III
1 Fighter Haste Boost 1
2 Fighter Haste Boost 2

Obviously none of this factors in things like equipment, but it should give you a good idea of what these two are capable of in their current form. I am still taking suggestions for how to improve either build, and I would like to know which you, the general public, would see more use for in a group.

Thanks for your opinion!

[Steveohio]

How much crowd control do you think your gonna do with only 7 lvls of bard?
The answer is not a whole lot later on.

Why not try to work in 1 more lvl of rogue for evasion or bard 8 for the song boost, as well as picking up haste.

Also, barbarians that use shields are sort of a waste of time, your spending way too many valuable feats to pickup heavy armor and tower shield. Stick with TWF or THF and medium armor, light if you grab the other rogue level.

I don't see what role you are going to end up doing with either build here. I see them both as fairly bad builds.
Cleave is pretty worthless a skill, I would suggest TWF or THF if you want to pickup more dps. Also the skill perform feat is uneeded with that few of levels. As well as dodge, your AC wont ever reach high enough for it worth anything to you. And as much as an advocate of Hitpoints as I am, the 20 con is totally uneeded, and I dont see how your getting these stat totals (end totals?)

I would suggest 8bard/12barb, or 12barb or ftr/2rogue/6bard and going warchanter build or 12bard/6ftr/2rogue if you want to do a stalwart defender tank type role.

[maddmatt70]

12 fighter combination in a heartbeat. I dislike the whole concept of being dependent on rages and not being able to buff yourself without dismissing them to buff yourself as a bard.

Edit: a sword and board char? this game is about dps especially at the end game. I am not sure what you are trying to do?

[clericreborn]

@SteveOhio - Skill-Perform not only is a prereq for virtuoso, which itself gives me +2 to perform and +3 bard songs per day. Thats 7 per lvl + 2 extra song + 3 virtuoso = 12 per rest. Plenty for pretty much any encounter, I would think.

Furthermore, Evasion only works in light armor, and I was trying to go Heavy to have more survivability as a solo character. I could pass up the shield, especially in group situations, but I feel like I need the AC of heavy, at least at low levels.

Lvl 7 bard additionally gives me access to lvl 3 buffs, which I believe is entirely worth the level. I considered lvl 8 bard, but you need 12 barb for frenzied berzerker 2 and I need 1 rogue to get access to disable device and open lock as a solo character.

I was thinking of possibly switching cleave and tower shield for some sort of combat feats, but hadn't quite made up my mind yet. Thoughts?

@Maddmatt70 - First of all, this character will be doing NO spell casting in combat at high levels, so the no-casting-while-raging limitation is not an issue.

Secondly, it was my hope that the fighter build could tank for a group at end game. Shields seem to be obligatory for that party role in this game, or am I wrong?

My one fear with the fighter build, that I'd get high in level and not be able to find a party who will let me tank if I were so inclined. Do you think this build has the defenses to play that role?

I've heard it said that bard crowd control is some of the best in the game. At lvl 20, my character would be able to rogue for groups, and the ability to throw 12 enthrallments per rest with a resist DC of 40+1D20. The fighter would then have great defensive skills, and the barbarian the DPS of a Frenzied II barbarian.

This build may not be what people are used to seeing, but I don't think I'm so far off the mark. If I am missing something, or if anyone sees room for improvement, please let me know.

[clericreborn]

TL;DR / @Unbongah:

Hello random party leader! MC crowd control/Rogue build LFG.

Enthral/fascinate at save DC40+1d20!

Max ranks to rogue skills+boosts+good equipment!

DPS from a frenzied II barbarian buffed with Rage and good hope!

This may not be snapped up like a more well-known build, but I am sure there is high-end content where those enthralls are going to be very useful, and I take the place of a rogue, and I still contribute decent DPS. But please, keep those comments coming!

[Lorien_the_First_One]

Yikes... Um...well if its a "first 5 will do" quest whichever clicked my LFM first.

If I was trying to recruit for something special I'm not sure I'd be happy inviting either of them as I'd wonder what roll they would play.

Low HP, weak CC, weak bard song, short duration buffs, limited healing, less than idea DPS, I suppose either could fill the 12th raid spot if I already had my preferred slots filled.

[Steveohio]

I dont think many people are going to be very receptive towards a heavy bard mix doing the tanking. A shield is nice, but not totally needed to tank at higher lvls, you see alot of TWF tanks with some monk in them to make up that AC. You could theoretically be a descent intimitank as a bard with the charisma, but I think youll find the defensive capabilities are just not there.

I think you trying to do too much with a character here. Adding rogue skills is a relatively small thing to add in, however once you start trying to do CC and tanking AND dps your spreading yourself way too thin. I would recommend dropping the idea of being a tank entirely as a bard if I were you, but its your choice.

i would definately swap cleave/shield for ITWF/GTWF line, I would focus on doing the dps/cc/rogue skills to the group. Bards have absolutely no issues soloing themselves as a pure class, infact I would say that this character is going to be an even worse soloer then any bard out there.

unbongwah pretty much hits the nail on the head here.

I would recomend either bumping up more bard levels at least to 8, as well as adding the 2 rogue for evasion if you want to keep the rogue skills. You have better AC with light armor and a 24 dex than you do with heavy armor and no chance of spell failure.

An 18/2 bard/rog is going to alot more viable, and valuable to any group than either of these. or forgetting the 7 bard, dropping it to 6, and going frenzied berzerker, 2 rogue, 6bard. Those 2 buffs will not make or break the toon.

alternatively, if you want to do DPS, and just have to multi-class(which I always do) you may want to look at splashing tempest 1, and going 6ranger/12bard/2rogue. You'll have alot better synergy with those classes, as well as a far better spell selection, and being able to fill more of what a group expects a bard to do, plus omre skill points.

[moops]

Dont worry bout Heavy Armor, Displace, Invis, and Facinate for soloing.

You might be quite happy with a 16 Bard/2 Rogue/2 fighter. with 16 Bard levels your facinate will still rock, and you'll have excellent songs for the group including the AC song--which a few raids/quests still use.

And you'd still be able to disable traps . .

For high level content, if Im looking for a Bard, I expect the Bard to be able to do certain things--unless its as someone said above --whomever clicks the LFM first, but most of the DDO population does not operate like that.

[Terelle]

Less than 15 bard levels is not useful to a high level group. You need 15 for the 'AC song' which is highly prized in raid situations.

You are trying to do too much without having a clearly defined goal. Although a bard is a jack of all trades, you are trying to do too much here.

If you are taking rogue levels, 2 of them gives evasion, which is a lot better than going the heavy armor route and giving yourself arcane spell failure. Your AC is not going to be meaningful anyway - displacement, haste, stoneskin should be your armour.

If you actually want bard songs, know most groups want them to be as good as possible. This means warchanter, and a minimum 15 bard levels. I also notice you haven't taken haste...which provides more additional dps than all of your fighter or barbarian levels would and is the other reason other than songs a bard would get groups.

If you want to be a bard, 18bard/2rogue, 15bard/3rogue/2ftr, 16bard/2rogue/2ftr, 16bard/2ftr/2barb are all known workable multiclasses, that bring it all to the table in terms of buffing and melee dps.

If you want to be a tank, 20 barbarian, 20 fighter or 18 fighter/2rogue for evasion are a lot more viable.

You want this build for soloing, I can guarantee you will be doing a lot of it, as nobody who knows the game mechanics even vaguely well is not going to accept you in their group.

Please rethink; there are people who have been playing the game a lot longer than you here. If you want to hang onto your build, fine, but don't come here asking for advice if you don't intend to listen.

I personally play a dwarven 15 bard/2ftr/3rogue warchanter, he has all the bard buffs, 15+ songs, fascinate DC above 70, the two weapon fighting chain, rogue skills, and brings a lot of DPS to the party. I know how good my build is from experience.

[unbongwah]

@SteveOhio - Skill-Perform not only is a prereq for virtuoso, which itself gives me +2 to perform and +3 bard songs per day. Thats 7 per lvl + 2 extra song + 3 virtuoso = 12 per rest. Plenty for pretty much any encounter, I would think.

If all you use your songs for is Enthrallment, perhaps so. But people also expect the bard to toss out Courage and maybe Competence (too bad you can't self-buff w/it) periodically too. And there can be some pretty long hauls between shrines...

Besides, how many PUGs even know how Fascinate works, much less can coordinate their attacks to maximize its utility?

Furthermore, Evasion only works in light armor, and I was trying to go Heavy to have more survivability as a solo character. I could pass up the shield, especially in group situations, but I feel like I need the AC of heavy, at least at low levels.

You still haven't addressed how you plan to deal with arcane spell failure, though. Are you gonna change clothes every time you cast spells, or what?

At lvl 20, my character would be able to rogue for groups, and the ability to throw 12 enthrallments per rest with a resist DC of 40+1D20.

True. And at level 20, people will wonder why you didn't go for at least bard 15 to get Greatness & Heroics as well as more powerful Courage.

Oh, and then there's explaining to folks why you only have enough SPs to buff the party twice and your "long-term" buffs only last 7 minutes `cause bard 7 + no Extend spell.

This might still be a fun build to solo; and if it isn't, the only one who suffers for it is you. :-T But I have a hard time picturing it being popular in PUGs, especially in endgame: too unfocused, too many bits operating at cross-purposes.

[clericreborn]

Thank you to everyone for the input.

I guess at this point I should admit that I was feeling a bit rebellious when I heard that virtuoso was so reviled. while I can certainly see the virtues of the other two prestige enhancements, I remembered the value of crowd control in my previous MMOs, and thought that fascinate/enthrallment would be awesome.

I do admit, not everyone knows how to use it properly, but honestly proper crowd control is such a basic part of MMO combat that it kind of seems pathetic that we let people remain ignorant. Even if I scrap this character, I may have to stick to guild parties if no one knows how such things work end-game. But back to the character build:

Let's say that I throw 3 or 4 feats into THF and other combat feats, and focus my enhancements on maximizing damage. Lets also say that I drop the heavy armor, bard 7, and pick up rogue 2 and evasion. Is the remaining core of barbarian 12 not solid enough to make for a decent DPS build?

[unbongwah]

The first question will be why didn't you go for rogue 2 for Evasion and at least bard 8 for your next bump in Inspire Courage.

The second will be why you would slap heavy armor and tower shield on a bard, who would suffer from beaucoup arcane spell failure from that combo.

The third will be why you're trying to make any sort of high-AC tank with bard in the first place.

Then you mention casually you're a Virtuoso and they'll be like "GTFO n00b!!1!" And I say that as someone who's quite fond of his drow rogue / bard / fighter Virt.

Unless you can clearly defend to PUGs just what this build is meant to accomplish, I have a feeling you'll be about as popular as a leper at a nudist colony. Personally I think you're better off either dropping rogue and taking bard 8; or taking a lot more bard levels (+ rogue 2) and just splashing fighter or barb.

[Krag]

Neither. Bard 7 is a folly.

[Impaqt]

Greetings,

Um.. Neither.. Unless I knew the player was exceptional. Both those builds really have no perks..... It would take a solid player behind the keyboard to make them viable in end game quests.

[Crazyfruit]

Either one would be very welcome in any group I start (especially on epics), but I think the 2nd one might be the better to play.

This is coming from someone who isn't all that concerned about DPS and takes almost anyone though It won't get too far with the min/maxers who assume anything 10% less than optimal is gimp.

edit: I had a similar one to your barb/bard (more DPS focused + warchanter), it didn't get declined often at all. I stopped playing her at lvl 15ish. Having to dismiss rage every time I needed to buff or spot heal wasn't very fun