Tempest Splash on a Fighter: Not Usually Worth it

[zed1]

Edit (6/1): In light of the changes to TWF (which impact Tempest I builds more than others) I thought I would revive the thread. The 18/2 build looks to be much better DPS-wise than the classic 12/6/2.

I recently downloaded the DPS Calculator made by Absolute-Omniscience and Yargore. I was mostly fooling around with a few builds and weapons until I started to notice a pattern:

For weapons with x3 or better Crit multiplier, Kensai III DPS >= Kensai II w/ Tempest I DPS
For weapons with x2 Crit Multiplier Kensai III DPS < Kensai II w/ Tempest I DPS

I used an 18 Fighter/2 Rogue and the Monster build as examples to evaluate the difference. With the sneak attack bonuses on one build and the favored enemy bonuses on the other, khopesh was essentially equal. For the other weapons there was a 5-10% difference in one build over the other. The calculator does not have all weapons types, so I concede that there may be some strange outliers.

I tried to be as fair as possible when comparing the builds (e.g. both have Tharnes Goggles or neither does.) Obviously real game situations will benefit one build over the other. I also don't want to gloss over the other benefits that come with 6 Ranger/2 Monk or 2 Rogue. However, I want to see people stop assuming that 6 levels of ranger makes every build better.

[hydra_ex]

IMO, go pure unless you want to splash 2 lvls of something for some benefit. Monk levels for evasion, etc.

[Chai]

These min maxing absolutist threads are always entertaining. I bet after three pages there will be enough win in here to be a fun read for at least few lunch hours.

In todays forum DPS deathmatch we have, 2 extra hooks -vs- 1 extra crit range.

Ready....

FIGHT!!!

[Chai]

I recently downloaded the DPS Calculator made by Absolute-Omniscience and Yargore. I was mostly fooling around with a few builds and weapons until I started to notice a pattern:

For weapons with x3 or better Crit multiplier, Kensai III DPS >= Kensai II w/ Tempest I DPS
For weapons with x2 Crit Multiplier Kensai III DPS < Kensai II w/ Tempest I DPS

I used an 18 Fighter/2 Rogue and the Monster build as examples to evaluate the difference. With the sneak attack bonuses on one build and the favored enemy bonuses on the other, khopesh was essentially equal. For the other weapons there was a 5-10% difference in one build over the other. The calculator does not have all weapons types, so I concede that there may be some strange outliers.

I tried to be as fair as possible when comparing the builds (e.g. both have Tharnes Goggles or neither does.) Obviously real game situations will benefit one build over the other. I also don't want to gloss over the other benefits that come with 6 Ranger/2 Monk or 2 Rogue. However, I want to see people stop assuming that 6 levels of ranger makes every build better.

6 Levels of ranger USED TO make every build better, until they implemented capstones and better PREs. Now everyone who is way too far into multiclassing to LR to pure fighter is LR ing 12 FTR 6 RNGR 2 ROG. Its a way of still getting that 10% haste bump while still being a pretty decent kensai, and saving a toon they likely would have ditched due to too much money to LR to something useful.

40 UMD is also no effort to get on a multi where its a much more farmtastic investment on a pure.

[Shaftronics]

Attacking 10% faster is a benefit, considering you can use status effect weapons like Vorpal or Banishing with a higher rate of success, simply because you just hit faster. Considering haste, haste action boost with Tempest's bonus and high BAB, I'd say that's pretty **** fast. I guess in later situations, bane weapons and special effect or insta-kill weapons are simply more effective than pure out DPS in some situations. But that's what DDO is all about; situations.

And the monster build has significantly more utility and survivability with evasion and a high UMD score while still having decent Balance, jump, etc. And the ability to self-buff slightly is always a bonus. DPS isn't exactly everything. Go get a TWF Barbarian if you want total and massive DPS I guess.

The leveling process is important, one way or another. And the ability to use wands from the get-go is always a bonus for yourself and the party.

[zed1]

6 Levels of ranger USED TO make every build better, until they implemented capstones and better PREs. Now everyone who is way too far into multiclassing to LR to pure fighter is LR ing 12 FTR 6 RNGR 2 ROG. Its a way of still getting that 10% haste bump while still being a pretty decent kensai, and saving a toon they likely would have ditched due to too much money to LR to something useful.

40 UMD is also no effort to get on a multi where its a much more farmtastic investment on a pure.

I agree, but I think that it is more than that. I think the ddo community has been slow to abandon some of that Mod 8 mentality. Otherwise, you wouldn't continue to see two or three variations on the Monster all across the forums. I recently had general chat turned on in the harbor, and you wouldn't believe what people think have been "proven" about these tempest splash builds.

That is part of what motivated the original post. Accurate information about build tradeoffs is a good thing.

[vettkinn]

These min maxing absolutist threads are always entertaining. I bet after three pages there will be enough win in here to be a fun read for at least few lunch hours.

In todays forum DPS deathmatch we have, 2 extra hooks -vs- 1 extra crit range.

Ready....

FIGHT!!!

I have some red popcorn, comrade. Want some? I'm feeling generous today

[Bacab]

I 100% agree. Go to EVERY Class forum and you will see a 6 RNG "splash" on every job for the whole 10% faster swinging thing.

Well IMHO 6 levels is almost a third of your characters total levels. So it really is not a "splash". You see 12FVS/6RNG/2MNK 12BRD/6RNG/2ROG etc...

Well Pure fighter does get a nice capstone and Kensai 3. I have felt that it was kinda silly to make a "Monster" once the Fighter captstone came out. I do think a "Monster" build is more versatile due to wand usage and evasion. But then again I kinda like Marilith Chain (epic especially) and since its a Medium armor, you are not really "losing" evasion on the pure fighter...since you never had it to begin with. And also for the Waforged out there...Docent of Quickening is a nice alternative (I am aware it does not stack with haste).

I have kinda felt that 6 lvls of RNG are best splashed with atleast 12 more levels of RNG...

Anyway just my thoughts.

[Shaftronics]

I do agree however, that more people need to be aware of what they lose when they multiclass.

I myself have a variation of the Monster Build (12 Ftr/6 Rgr/2 Rog) and I'm enjoying myself over my previous pure fighter. But there are pros and cons to everything.

Since essentially I'm not exactly losing the fighter capstone for a TWF Fighter (10% Attack Speed when wielding 2 weapons at Tempest 1), its mostly a tradeoff of Kensei III for Evasion, ala Reflex save against traps and spells and versatility over wands and high UMD. Also, with the 6 levels of ranger, you can actually use bows as a viable alternative in certain areas or through traps as compared to a crappy throwing weapon. Getting normally feat-heavy stuff such as Bow Strength, Faster reloading with a bow and especially manyshot, which literally doubles/triples the damage one can do with a bow.

Its all according to the user on what he wants to be. Sure, maybe he'll lose a few points of DPS, but the versatility really gives you a sense of utility and the lack of "relying" on someone else disappears. Just an opinion I have at least.

[Delt]

On most TWF Kensai non-capstone builds, against most current end game content, tempest splash > 6 extra fighter levels. Not only in DPS (rams, speed, favored) but versatility.

All the fighter levels net you is a +1 dmg from APs and the crit range - the feat trade off is a wash.

I don't use yargores calc, but I'd love to see the numbers you are punching in that makes the fighter levels look better on paper.

[Maxson]

wait, 6 levels of ranger gives the same advantage when dual wielding as the fighter capstone? Shouldn't that be nerfed? Giving something for 6 levels of a class that another class needs to hit 20 for?

[Aaxeyu]

You are basicly comparing a level 18 build (12 fighter / 6 ranger) to a level 20 build (18 fighter / 2 rogue).
That is obviously not very fair.

Fact is that 12 fighter/6 ranger /2X is always better than 18 fighter/2X (non fighter) unless you plan for THF and epic sos.

Without FE damage their DPS is more or less equal. Add the occasional FE damage to the 12/6/2 and it comes out ahead.

So either go pure fighter or splash ranger.

[AylinIsAwesome]

wait, 6 levels of ranger gives the same advantage when dual wielding as the fighter capstone? Shouldn't that be nerfed? Giving something for 6 levels of a class that another class needs to hit 20 for?

Tempest gives bonuses to just TWF. Fighter Capstone gives that to all weapon techniques. Also you lose the crit range from Kensei 3 by splashing 6 Ranger.


On the other hand you get Evasion (from Monk or Rogue splash for the last two levels) and FE damage. Which is better? Honestly, I don't know since I don't often play Fighters.

[Arctigis]

You are basicly comparing a level 18 build (12 fighter / 6 ranger) to a level 20 build (18 ranger / 2 rogue).
That is obviously not very fair.

Fact is that 12 fighter/6 ranger /2X is always better than 18 fighter/2X (non fighter) unless you plan for THF and epic sos.

Without FE damage their DPS is more or less equal. Add the occasional FE damage to the 12/6/2 and it comes out ahead.

So either go pure fighter or splash ranger.

Is this true when Kensai III is taken into consideration? I saw another thread which indicated that the Tempest + 10% is only really applicable when no other attack speed bonuses are taken into consideration. e.g. with haste
and haste boost, the attack speed increase is much less noticeable and Kensai III comes out on top.

My fighter is rapidly approaching L12 and I need to decide on an 18/2 or 12/6/2 split.

[Shaftronics]

There are other factors other than just DPS for adding in 6 ranger levels, however. The ability to use cure wands, manyshot making bows a much better/actually usable ranged alternative when you need it as compared to throwing weapons, Bow Strength and Evasion as well. People usually make a character with a tempest in mind, getting the first 6 levels of Ranger as soon as possible to get the benefits quickly.

Grinding out the Ranger levels after fighter level 12 is going to be pretty rough, IMO.

Also, its also a preference on playstyle. Do you like to be versatile? Do you mind wearing light armor? If you have reflex saves, would you like to be able to dodge traps and spells with a degree of success with totally no damage taken?

If you don't mind being a Fighter, with high enough UMD, you -could- be using Wands. But that ranger mix is probably going to have more UMD or not need it at all. Ranger levels allow you to be self-sufficient and more versatile, while the Thief levels allow you an additional +2 to trap reflex saves, 1d6+2 to Sneak attack damage and evasion from spells and traps, as well as additional UMD levels, as it is a class skill. Or the original monster build has 2 Monk for evasion and feats.

Your character can only be optimized so much. It must be built around your playstyle.

[Maxson]

Tempest gives bonuses to just TWF. Fighter Capstone gives that to all weapon techniques. Also you lose the crit range from Kensei 3 by splashing 6 Ranger.


On the other hand you get Evasion (from Monk or Rogue splash for the last two levels) and FE damage. Which is better? Honestly, I don't know since I don't often play Fighters.

Maybe, but most damage fighters dual wield, I don't recall seeing a THF fighter for a long time.

edit: that said, we fighters do get a considerably better haste action boost than the average ranger with 2 rogue levels

[grodon9999]

Is this true when Kensai III is taken into consideration? I saw another thread which indicated that the Tempest + 10% is only really applicable when no other attack speed bonuses are taken into consideration. e.g. with haste
and haste boost, the attack speed increase is much less noticeable and Kensai III comes out on top.

My fighter is rapidly approaching L12 and I need to decide on an 18/2 or 12/6/2 split.

This is WRONG. Tempest stacks with haste boost, haste spell, and Windstance.

[zed1]

You are basicly comparing a level 18 build (12 fighter / 6 ranger) to a level 20 build (18 ranger / 2 rogue).
That is obviously not very fair.

Actually, I was using the standard monster build in my comparisons since it is well understood and often copied. Monk adds no DPS, so I didn't call it out. Theoretically a fighter-ranger-rogue is possible, but the stats are already tight and the synergy between the classes is not as good. So you would have more DPS and less of everything else that makes the build so popular. THAT seemed to be a unfair comparison.

The 18/2 fighter-rogue on the other hand is very easily created for DPS and good use of the rogue levels. It seemed like a reasonable build to use to show that evasion easily obtainable without using tempest.

Fact is that 12 fighter/6 ranger /2X is always better than 18 fighter/2X (non fighter) unless you plan for THF and epic sos.

Without FE damage their DPS is more or less equal. Add the occasional FE damage to the 12/6/2 and it comes out ahead.

I ran my numbers again, and the level 18 fighter comes out slightly ahead of a 12 fighter/6 ranger against non-favored enemies for all weapons with a x3 crit range or better. Add favored enemy damage and the ranger comes out slightly ahead. I'm not sure what numbers you are using.

Given the ease of adding rogue levels to a vanilla fighter, the 18/2 build ends up being better in scenarios where sneak damage is possible. *shrug* All I'm getting at is that the tempest levels are not really needed for the build. Other builds are possible that offer as good or better numbers and a similar number of extra benefits.

[Arctigis]

This is WRONG. Tempest stacks with haste boost, haste spell, and Windstance.

I wasn't claiming it didn't stack. However, as far as I understand it, speed boosts are additive not multiplicative.

i.e.

1.0 > 1.1 = 10% increase, pure tempest

However:

1.45 (haste + Fighter Speed boost IV) -> 1.55 (tempest) is no longer a 10% increase and hence less noticeable.

My question was, does Kensai III (Khopesh, obviously) make up for the above speed loss from Tempest I ???. I
did set out to do Ftr 12/Rng 6/Rog 2 but now I'm not so sure.

[Shaftronics]

There are other factors other than just DPS for adding in 6 ranger levels, however. The ability to use cure wands, manyshot making bows a much better/actually usable ranged alternative when you need it as compared to throwing weapons, Bow Strength and Evasion as well. People usually make a character with a tempest in mind, getting the first 6 levels of Ranger as soon as possible to get the benefits quickly.

Grinding out the Ranger levels after fighter level 12 is going to be pretty rough, IMO.

Also, its also a preference on playstyle. Do you like to be versatile? Do you mind wearing light armor? If you have reflex saves, would you like to be able to dodge traps and spells with a degree of success with totally no damage taken?

If you don't mind being a Fighter, with high enough UMD, you -could- be using Wands. But that ranger mix is probably going to have more UMD or not need it at all. Ranger levels allow you to be self-sufficient and more versatile, while the Thief levels allow you an additional +2 to trap reflex saves, 1d6+2 to Sneak attack damage and evasion from spells and traps, as well as additional UMD levels, as it is a class skill. Or the original monster build has 2 Monk for evasion and feats.

Your character can only be optimized so much. It must be built around your playstyle.

Just repeating myself. If you want versatility in your play, go for the mix. If you like versatility, the pros outweigh the cons.

If you wanna stay pure melee, go on with 18/2