Tempest Splash on a Fighter: Not Usually Worth it

[Aaxeyu]

Actually, I was using the standard monster build in my comparisons since it is well understood and often copied. Monk adds no DPS, so I didn't call it out. Theoretically a fighter-ranger-rogue is possible, but the stats are already tight and the synergy between the classes is not as good. So you would have more DPS and less of everything else that makes the build so popular. THAT seemed to be a unfair comparison.

The 18/2 fighter-rogue on the other hand is very easily created for DPS and good use of the rogue levels. It seemed like a reasonable build to use to show that evasion easily obtainable without using tempest.



I ran my numbers again, and the level 18 fighter comes out slightly ahead of a 12 fighter/6 ranger against non-favored enemies for all weapons with a x3 crit range or better. Add favored enemy damage and the ranger comes out slightly ahead. I'm not sure what numbers you are using.

Given the ease of adding rogue levels to a vanilla fighter, the 18/2 build ends up being better in scenarios where sneak damage is possible. *shrug* All I'm getting at is that the tempest levels are not really needed for the build. Other builds are possible that offer as good or better numbers and a similar number of extra benefits.

Sorry, but I don't see how adding rogue levels to a 12 fighter / 6 ranger build is somehow harder than adding them to a 18 fighter build?

Tempest makes your splashed TWF fighter better. End of story.

[Bacab]

Sorry, but I don't see how adding rogue levels to a 12 fighter / 6 ranger build is somehow harder than adding them to a 18 fighter build?

Tempest makes your splashed TWF fighter better. End of story.

I like the "Monster", but Aaxeyu are you saying Monster>18/2 or are you saying Monster>18FTR/6RNG/2ROG or Monster>Pure Fighter?

I think DPS-wise "Monster">18/2 but I feel a Pure Fighter is better DPS>Monster...but the Monster nets you Evasion and wand usage like I said before. Also with Marilith Chain (epic even better) it opens up your trinket for the Reaver Head or even a Shimmering Arrowhead (+2 to hit+crippling...the Seeker doesn't stack).

The other thing not going "Monster" nets you is more feats. You do not have to "waste" feats getting to tempest. Though pure fighter ends up having more feats than it knows what to do with, so ends up being kinda a wash. I guess you can go with defensive feats like Luck of Heroes and Iron Will and Force of Personality (and higher CHR for inti and UMD).

I also feel in epic that Pure Fighter is better due to the bonuses for hit, but it only effects above-average geared characters. Extremely well geared Fighter and Monster both hit consistantly.

I also know a few fighters that will re-spec to the Stalwart if needed. A guildy does that.

Both builds have pros/cons. It really depends on your playstyle.

One thing not to be over-looked is the ability to have Manyshot on a Monster-build.

BTW DPS calcs are kinda odd. If you want to say "XXX" is best on Atrekios because he never moves...you can.

If you want to say "Monster" or Barb or Pure ranger is best/better (than a fighter) in a quest because sprint boost lets me jump over melees and take down casters faster...that is a VALID argument also.

It is all about what you want in your toon.

[Arctigis]

Sorry, but I don't see how adding rogue levels to a 12 fighter / 6 ranger build is somehow harder than adding them to a 18 fighter build?

Tempest makes your splashed TWF fighter better. End of story.

Hi, do you mind explaining that a bit please? (if you've already done it on ddo-eu, do you have a link?).

I'm used to playing Sorcs hence some of the finer points on melee are unknown to me. Essentially I'm
considering 18F/2Rog vs. 12F/6Rng/2Rog - I want UMD on this build hence Monk is out for me.

Basically, I'm trying to weigh up if +1 threat range is worth more than Tempest I, +3 reflex, Rams might etc.

Thanks.

[Thrudh]

I ran my numbers again, and the level 18 fighter comes out slightly ahead of a 12 fighter/6 ranger against non-favored enemies for all weapons with a x3 crit range or better. Add favored enemy damage and the ranger comes out slightly ahead. I'm not sure what numbers you are using.

• Did you include Ram's Might in those calculations? That's another +3 damage
• Did you use +6 damage vs 2 favored enemies or just +4?
• Did you do DPS calculations against non-crittable monsters like undead or constructs?
• Did you consider situations where disrupting or vorpaling is a smart move?? 10% attack speed is better there...
• Did you consider situations where banishing or smiting is a smart move?? I'd be curious if 10% attack speed or increased crit range is better there... I'd guess crit range (although banishing comes on piercing and most Kensai III fighters will be slash specced, plus you have to spend APs for every weapon type that you want the extra crit range)

6 levels of ranger also gets you

• Bow Strength
• Manyshot
• Wand usage (Resists are nice, cures and neutralize posion useful in early levels)
• Sprint Boost
• Jump spell

The thing is... there's just not much benefit to fighter levels 13-18. Extra +1 damage at 16, Kensai III at 18, and 3 feats...

6 levels of ranger gives a lot more STUFF... and basically the same DPS (more DPS in several common situations)... I like Ranger 6 for Manyshot and Bow Strength.. Those two have very nice situational uses.

[Raiderone]

• Did you include Ram's Might in those calculations? That's another +3 damage
• Did you use +6 damage vs 2 favored enemies or just +4?
• Did you do DPS calculations against non-crittable monsters like undead or constructs?
• Did you consider situations where disrupting or vorpaling is a smart move?? 10% attack speed is better there...
• Did you consider situations where banishing or smiting is a smart move?? I'd be curious if 10% attack speed or increased crit range is better there... I'd guess crit range (although banishing comes on piercing and most Kensai III fighters will be slash specced, plus you have to spend APs for every weapon type that you want the extra crit range)

6 levels of ranger also gets you

• Bow Strength
• Manyshot
• Wand usage (Resists are nice, cures and neutralize posion useful in early levels)
• Sprint Boost
• Jump spell

The thing is... there's just not much benefit to fighter levels 13-18. Extra +1 damage at 16, Kensai III at 18, and 3 feats...

6 levels of ranger gives a lot more STUFF... and basically the same DPS (more DPS in several common situations)... I like Ranger 6 for Manyshot and Bow Strength.. Those two have very nice situational uses.

Let's not forget additional Free Feats of Diehard, TWF and Improved TWF.

A 12 Fighter/ 6 Ranger/ 2 Rogue build gives a surplus of Feats. I converted my 11th level Pure Elf Ranger to it. So Far 6 Fighter/ 6 Ranger/2 Rogue.

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.34
DDO Character Planner Home Page

Level 20 Lawful Good Elf Female
(12 Fighter \ 2 Rogue \ 6 Ranger) 
Hit Points: 364
Spell Points: 25 
BAB: 19\19\24\29\29
Fortitude: 16
Reflex: 18
Will: 6

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
Abilities        Base Stats          Modified Stats
(32 Point)       (Level 1)             (Level 20)
Strength             16                    27
Dexterity            16                    22
Constitution         14                    16
Intelligence         14                    16
Wisdom                8                    10
Charisma              8                     8

Tomes Used
+1 Tome of Strength used at level 7
+2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 7
+1 Tome of Constitution used at level 7
+2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 7
+1 Tome of Wisdom used at level 7
+3 Tome of Strength used at level 20
+2 Tome of Constitution used at level 20
+2 Tome of Wisdom used at level 20

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
                 Base Skills         Modified Skills
Skills           (Level 1)            (Level 20)
Balance               7                    10
Bluff                -1                     1
Concentration         2                     5
Diplomacy            -1                     1
Disable Device        6                    26
Haggle               -1                    -1
Heal                  1                     2
Hide                  3                     6
Intimidate            3                     5
Jump                  7                    13
Listen               -1                     2
Move Silently         3                     6
Open Lock             7                    17
Perform              n/a                   n/a
Repair                2                     3
Search                6                    28
Spot                  3                    14
Swim                  3                     8
Tumble                7                    10
Use Magic Device      3                    22

Level 1 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Dodge


Level 2 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Weapon Focus: Piercing Weapons


Level 3 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Mobility
Feat: (Selected) Toughness


Level 4 (Fighter)


Level 5 (Ranger)
Feat: (Favored Enemy) Favored Enemy: Undead


Level 6 (Ranger)
Feat: (Selected) Spring Attack


Level 7 (Ranger)


Level 8 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Weapon Specialization: Piercing Weapons


Level 9 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Piercing Weapons


Level 10 (Ranger)


Level 11 (Ranger)
Feat: (Favored Enemy) Favored Enemy: Evil Outsider


Level 12 (Ranger)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Weapon Fighting


Level 13 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Oversized Two Weapon Fighting


Level 14 (Fighter)


Level 15 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Greater Weapon Focus: Piercing Weapons
Feat: (Selected) Power Attack


Level 16 (Fighter)


Level 17 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Cleave


Level 18 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness


Level 19 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Greater Weapon Specialization: Piercing Weapons


Level 20 (Rogue)
Enhancement: Fighter Attack Boost I
Enhancement: Fighter Attack Boost II
Enhancement: Ranger Skill Boost I
Enhancement: Ranger Skill Boost II
Enhancement: Elven Dexterity I
Enhancement: Elven Dexterity II
Enhancement: Aerenal Elf Melee Attack I
Enhancement: Aerenal Elf Melee Attack II
Enhancement: Aerenal Elf Melee Damage I
Enhancement: Aerenal Elf Melee Damage II
Enhancement: Kensei Rapier Mastery I
Enhancement: Kensei Rapier Mastery II
Enhancement: Fighter Armor Mastery I
Enhancement: Fighter Critical Accuracy I
Enhancement: Fighter Critical Accuracy II
Enhancement: Fighter Kensei I
Enhancement: Fighter Kensei II
Enhancement: Fighter Rapier Specialization I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
Enhancement: Ranger Favored Attack I
Enhancement: Ranger Favored Damage I
Enhancement: Ranger Favored Damage II
Enhancement: Ranger Favored Defense I
Enhancement: Ranger Favored Resistance I
Enhancement: Ranger Tempest I
Enhancement: Ranger Dexterity I
Enhancement: Ranger Dexterity II
Enhancement: Fighter Strength I
Enhancement: Fighter Strength II
Enhancement: Fighter Strength III
Enhancement: Fighter Toughness I
Enhancement: Fighter Toughness II
Enhancement: Fighter Toughness III
Enhancement: Fighter Toughness IV

[Aaxeyu]

I like the "Monster", but Aaxeyu are you saying Monster>18/2 or are you saying Monster>18FTR/6RNG/2ROG or Monster>Pure Fighter?

Hm, I've not really mentioned my monster build at all.
What I am saying is that 12 fighter / 6 ranger > 18 fighter. And it's an unfair comparison if you give 2 monk levels to one of them and 2 rogue levels to the other.

Pure fighter is ahead of both in DPS.

[Shaftronics]

Hi, do you mind explaining that a bit please? (if you've already done it on ddo-eu, do you have a link?).

I'm used to playing Sorcs hence some of the finer points on melee are unknown to me. Essentially I'm
considering 18F/2Rog vs. 12F/6Rng/2Rog - I want UMD on this build hence Monk is out for me.

Basically, I'm trying to weigh up if +1 threat range is worth more than Tempest I, +3 reflex, Rams might etc.

Thanks.

Its your playstyle.

Both builds have pros/cons. It really depends on your playstyle.

One thing not to be over-looked is the ability to have Manyshot on a Monster-build.

BTW DPS calcs are kinda odd. If you want to say "XXX" is best on Atrekios because he never moves...you can.

If you want to say "Monster" or Barb or Pure ranger is best/better (than a fighter) in a quest because sprint boost lets me jump over melees and take down casters faster...that is a VALID argument also.

It is all about what you want in your toon.

Thats it. You decide what you want for your toon. Cheaper/more reliable self-sufficiency? Ranged ability? UMD usage? The ability to rush to casters? Whatever?

If you want to just melee, DPS, do your job and... that's it, go ahead with 18/2.

If you want to melee, range with a bow effectively or rush up to casters, self-heal with a wand, have Diehard as an emergency situational feat, go for the Tempest.

Playstyle is the key word here. Not just DPS numbers, because as far as I know...

I'd rather have self-sufficiency and versatility.

[zed1]

I was hoping that some people would actually look into the calculations themselves rather than just assume that I am correct or incorrect.

The calculator that I linked in the original post has a monster build already built in. The details are:

- dual wielding mineral II khopeshes. Main hand has acid blast, Off Hand does not (presumably +2 con or +4 insight AC)
- +21 strength bonus on main hand, +10 on the off hand
- WF power attack of 8
- Frenzied Berzerker Set
- Shinto Monk Set
- +3 Fighter Damage enhancements
- +4 Weapon Specialization
- +6 for favored enemy damage
- +2 rams might
- +9 for Bard Songs
- +1 for Prayer
- 8 haste boosts

Then there is a bunch of information about swing speed that I didn't touch. The yield was : 471 per second

Remove favored enemy damage and the DPS becomes 435.7 per second.

Note: I just noticed a bug in the spreadsheet: the monster is wearing Epic Marilith Chain for the purposes of the seeker bonus. Switching to epic bloodstone, the corrected values are: 465.8 FE / 430.4 non-FE

To create a fair comparison, set up the 18/2 fighter-monk as follows:

- +1 Extra Critical Threat Range
- +4 Fighter Damage enhancements
- 0 for favored enemy
- 0 for Ram's Might
- 0 for Tempest/ Zeal/ Capstone
- 10 for Number of haste boosts used

All other things equal, the result is 438.4. More than the non-FE, and less than the FE.

The results are similar for all x3 weapons:
Weapon - Tempest I FE - Kensai III - Tempest I non-FE
Khopesh - 465.8 - 438.4 - 430.4
Heavy Pick - 422.3 - 414.2 - 389.6
Light Pick - 416.8 - 408.3 - 384.1
Dwarf Axe - 410.7 - 393 - 380.6
WarHammer - 393.2 - 374.7 - 363.1

So the assertion that Tempest is "always better" is not correct. Tempest splash is better against 2 Favored Enemies, otherwise Kensai III is better. Most builds that I see use Undead as one of the favored enemies, which are immune to crits, so the above calculations are worthless. Effectively, the ranger splash adds 2%-6% damage against evil outsiders, and takes away DPS from every other enemy that is not immune to crits.

Given that I found one problem with the Monster calculations that come with the calculator, I do have some lingering doubts that the above calculations are 100% accurate. Buyer beware!

[Aaxeyu]

You are using an outdated DPS calc.
I'll poke A-O/Lyrach and see if he can put the new one we got up for download.

[Thrudh]

ISo the assertion that Tempest is "always better" is not correct. Tempest splash is better against 2 Favored Enemies, otherwise Kensai III is better.

"Better" is a relative term...

At pure DPS against crittable non-favored enemies... Kensai III wins....

But you get a lot more than pure DPS from 6 ranger splash...

I would not say Tempest is "always better"... I would say that Tempest is usually more useful and fun while nearly matching Kensai III DPS in most situations, and in some situations, exceeding Kensai III DPS...

I currently have an 18 fighter with Kensai III... and I have a Monster build coming along... both are fun, both are solid...

I would never say either is "better"... I do think the Monster build is more versatile... He can sneak effectively and see hidden enemies (don't forget all those ranger skill points - another small advantage), he can range effectively, he's been using wands at the lower levels to keep the groups healed, and handle posion, and resists...

He has the jump spell and sprint boost... very useful at times...

And his DPS is just a bit below the 18 fighter.... and in some cases, a bit above...

You're right that a Tempest isn't always "better" and that pure fighters are solid choices... I just like that a monster has solid DPS AND all those other things.

[Consumer]

Why is monster dps being compared to fighter dps, surely if you care about dps you would drop the 2 monk levels and pick up 2 barbarian levels.

Weak BAB and no dps increase becomes:

Full BAB
+4 str for over 4 minutes
sprint boost (debateable dps increase, can also be taken with ranger levels)
1 PA damage
10% movement speed (again debateable)


I'm currently building the 12/6/2 fighter/ranger/barb or the Egomaniac and considering what my TR should be, highest dps is what I want, the builds defence should be stunning blow and relatively good HP, not dps sacrifices.

[Vanshilar]

I wasn't claiming it didn't stack. However, as far as I understand it, speed boosts are additive not multiplicative.

i.e.

1.0 > 1.1 = 10% increase, pure tempest

However:

1.45 (haste + Fighter Speed boost IV) -> 1.55 (tempest) is no longer a 10% increase and hence less noticeable.

My question was, does Kensai III (Khopesh, obviously) make up for the above speed loss from Tempest I ???. I
did set out to do Ftr 12/Rng 6/Rog 2 but now I'm not so sure.

My understanding is that the attack speed modifiers are *supposed* to be multiplicative. Not only that, but the way they work is something like:

attack speed * 100 / (100 - boost amount)

In other words, they decrease the cooldown from one attack to the next by the amount of the boost. So if you have a 15% attack speed boost, then your DPS actually increases by 100 / (100 - 15) = 100 / 85 = 17.6% increase.

So a fighter's attack speed would be at 100 / (100 - 30) = 143% of normal with haste boost on (and 100% naturally with haste boost off). A fighter 12 / ranger 6 would be at 100 / (100 - 30) * 100 / (100 - 10) = 159% of normal with haste boost on, and 100 / (100 - 10) = 111% of normal without haste boost. Of course, without the kensai 3 enhancement, each hit for the latter does less damage.

Anyway, unfortunately, testing shows that the real situation is more complicated than this, dealing with stuff like "overhead" and all that that I don't really feel like getting into. I assume that up-to-date DPS calculators take them into account, because I've been too lazy to figure them out for myself, but the above is basically what I assume for "back of the envelope" calculations (so those of you that have done attack speed testing, let me know if I'm wrong on that ).

For the OP, when talking about DPS, you should consider that in DDO, the highest DPS is very situational; there's no one setup that will have the best DPS in all situations. Making a blanket statement like that a tempest splash on a fighter is "Not Usually Worth it" is just asking for trouble, considering how often you will be using vorpals or relying on other on-hit effects (in which case the tempest attack speed wins out), or fighting monsters that have some amount of fort, like many raid bosses (in which case I suspect that the tempest splash would do pretty well, again due to the higher attack speed rather than relying on crits). These are just common situations where DPS is the main consideration (clearing trash mobs and whacking raid bosses); other considerations such as UMD, manyshot, wands, etc., contribute to making a fighter 12 / ranger 6 build very versatile. Of course, fighter 18 also has its own advantages. But you'll have to do more comparisons of the two builds in different situations before concluding that it's "Not Usually Worth it". For example, test out the builds when the victim has 50% fort (roughly what Arraetrikos is supposed to have) and see if it still holds; also, if the victim has 100% fort (portal beating in shroud) and see where they stand.

[zed1]

You are using an outdated DPS calc.
I'll poke A-O/Lyrach and see if he can put the new one we got up for download.

Thanks, I would appreciate it!

[zed1]

Weapon - Tempest I FE - Kensai III - Tempest I non-FE
Khopesh - 465.8 - 438.4 - 430.4
Heavy Pick - 422.3 - 414.2 - 389.6
Light Pick - 416.8 - 408.3 - 384.1
Dwarf Axe - 410.7 - 393 - 380.6
WarHammer - 393.2 - 374.7 - 363.1

I grabbed the updated calc (Thanks Aaxeyu and AO!) There was no significant movement, but I thought it was worth updating the values:

Weapon - Tempest I FE - Kensai III - Tempest I non-FE
Khopesh - 489.8 - 459.62 - 453.46
Heavy Pick - 441.47 - 432.25 - 407.83
Light Pick - 435.86 - 426.25 - 402.22
D Axe - 427.79 - 408.3 - 396.84
Warhammer - 409.73 - 389.55 - 378.78

I also fixed a minor error in my comparison... forgot to bump the strength of the 18/2 build down by 2 for the loss of ram's might.

As you would expect (and others on the thread alluded to), there is a steep DPS drop off for the 18/2 build for crit immune and >0% fort enemies. Really, all of your eggs are in the critical hit basket with that build.

As to some of the comments about the versatility of the tempest build and the ease of doing the fighter-tempest-rogue build... It is useful to note that the 18/2 fighter-monk build has 19 feats, the 18/2 fighter-rogue build has 17 feats, the 12/6/2 ranger-monk build has 16 feats, and the 12/6/2 ranger-rogue build has 14 feats. The fighter-ranger-rogue potentially also needs build points in 5 stats. It is not impossible as Raiderone shows, but hard choices need to be made (like "should I spend the feat on a khopesh" or "should I improve my saves").

Just for fun, I opened up the character planner and put together a warforged fighter-rogue with all the standard melee feats/enhancements, stunning blow, iron will, and a +25 UMD(with a charisma of 8). I don't know... this seems pretty versatile to me.

[sigtrent]

Looks to me like the OP is mostly busted...

The DPS is better against FE and is only a tiny bit worse against non FE, and in exchange you get all kinds of situational goodies.

I imagine pure fighter has the edge though since they get the blanket 10% speed boost. Then you are comparing a superior DPS build with a more versatile survivability build. Same goes with the barbarian skews. I wonder how the barbarian capstone compares with the fighter capstone, who looses more by splashing for evasion?

I really like the spread on DPS we have now.. Most of the classes have a viable DPS mechanism and they can be combined in various ways without any standing tall above the rest winners. (there is always an "at the margins" winner)

Still, with greensteel and epic weapons, gear is trumping build in most of these comparisons of solid builds.

[Arctigis]

Just for fun, I opened up the character planner and put together a warforged fighter-rogue with all the standard melee feats/enhancements, stunning blow, iron will, and a +25 UMD(with a charisma of 8). I don't know... this seems pretty versatile to me.

Indeed.

http://my.ddo.com/character/thelanis/drahkken/

Is what I'm working on now. I don't raid much as I mostly solo so equipment wont get much better. However,
IB+HB Khopesh + bloodstone is pretty sick damage.

[Cyr]

Weapon - Tempest I FE - Kensai III - Tempest I non-FE
Khopesh - 489.8 - 459.62 - 453.46
Heavy Pick - 441.47 - 432.25 - 407.83
Light Pick - 435.86 - 426.25 - 402.22
D Axe - 427.79 - 408.3 - 396.84
Warhammer - 409.73 - 389.55 - 378.78

There are some major considerations here.

*Kensai numbers are always run assuming that the weapon is your your specialty weapon.
*Kensai fighters generally are pretty solid stunning machines. However, when a mob is stunned the dps again shifts to tempest splashes due to the increased damage from rams might and the increased attack speed.
*Proc effects happen more often on tempest splashes. This matters in non-epic elite where vorpals rule or where mobs are immune to vorpals where stunning blow rules and the 5% autostun goes off more often.
*Kensai dps drops off when not using specialty weapons faster then tempest splash due to the extra crit range being lost and the +1 damage being lost. This of course comes back to how are you running your build in epic versus trash?
*Crit immune monsters of course the tempest wins.

Really it comes down to a matter of practicality. Do the extra couple of feats make up for the lesser dps in trash mob epic situations, crit immune situations, or elite evil outsider situations? It's not like one build is gimped here. They both are solid. It's just that the advantages of one is feats and the other is a wider range of end game situations with slightly superior dps.

[zed1]

Lots of good points brought up about the value of having 6 levels of ranger in the thread. I don't agree with everything, but to each their own.

However, in light of the proposed nerf to TWF and the significantly reduced benefit of Tempest, I wonder how popular these 12 whatever/6 ranger/ 2 whatever build will be. Are the goodies that 6 levels of ranger provide enough to counterbalance the loss of tier III PrE enhancements (and very likely reduced DPS)? Time will tell.

[Consumer]

Lots of good points brought up about the value of having 6 levels of ranger in the thread. I don't agree with everything, but to each their own.

However, in light of the proposed nerf to TWF and the significantly reduced benefit of Tempest, I wonder how popular these 12 whatever/6 ranger/ 2 whatever build will be. Are the goodies that 6 levels of ranger provide enough to counterbalance the loss of tier III PrE enhancements (and very likely reduced DPS)? Time will tell.

Necro

Also every 6 tempest splash build will now be a whole lot less DPS than a TWF Fighter. For any class thats BaB will be high enough for STWF staying pure will be the way to go.

[grodon9999]

The question will be, will the Fighter Capstone be good enough to stay pure or should you go 2 monk for evasion/feats?