Losing tanks in Pt4 of Shroud

[sirgog]

Simple strategy. Works to soloheal on Normal or Hard, or Elite with minor modifications and maybe one or two mana pots.

1) Turn Quicken on. Elite *only*, also turn on Empower Healing.
2) Target a high HP melee (Barb 20's are excellent choices, as are dwarven rangers).
3) Cast Mass Heal.
4) Check your own HP. If under 300, cast Heal on yourself.
5) Wait until cooldown of Mass Heal is complete.
6) Return to step 2.

Melees do not fight through blades, although the one you have targeted is last to leave. Noone dies unless they are undergeared (under 400/500/600 hp n/h/e or lacking Heavy Fort, or a WF with no healing amplification). Harry simply doesn't have the DPS to outdo your healing. And regardless of lag, your melees are getting a big heal every 6.5 seconds which keeps them alive.

[vindicater]

Sorry to say....but the definition of PUG ever since EU went live is this.....

.....a group of people consisting of know nothings who will cause excessive stress, resource expenditure, and death to any vets playing with them......

I'd suggest not puggin tough quests like raids, and u will find ur clerical skills are just fine.

PUG should be changed from "pick up group" to "poisonous unreliable gimps".

Sorry to be so harsh, but it is becoming a bit tiresome.

Harsh real Harsh. All I do is pug here on Kyber and yes there has been a couple bad raids thrown in but by far way more smoth ones.

As far as lag goes some runs it is not to bad but the other day I went from around 600 hp to dead in a blink, and yes I had my menos on. I got rezed and was looting the chest and was still getting dps numbers. BTW 3 of us died in that same blink but the others didnot seem to be affected. This was a first round finish right as the blades hit.

[DragonMageT]

Simple strategy. Works to soloheal on Normal or Hard, or Elite with minor modifications and maybe one or two mana pots.

1) Turn Quicken on. Elite *only*, also turn on Empower Healing.
2) Target a high HP melee (Barb 20's are excellent choices, as are dwarven rangers).
3) Cast Mass Heal.
4) Check your own HP. If under 300, cast Heal on yourself.
5) Wait until cooldown of Mass Heal is complete.
6) Return to step 2.

Melees do not fight through blades, although the one you have targeted is last to leave. Noone dies unless they are undergeared (under 400/500/600 hp n/h/e or lacking Heavy Fort, or a WF with no healing amplification). Harry simply doesn't have the DPS to outdo your healing. And regardless of lag, your melees are getting a big heal every 6.5 seconds which keeps them alive.

Seriously ?

Don't follow that advice, mass heal is way to slow. If you have low HP toons in your group, they will die.
If you have lag of any kind..ding! Fighting through blades more dings!

Don't fight through the blades ? lame. Groups I run in always try for a 1 rounder unless DPS proves otherwise.

If your spec'd right, use mass cure light and mod. if you notice red bars getting low, start cycling through all your mass heals except Mass Heal. Do this once the blades start coming in or just before.

Even if I am solo healing, I never use Mass Heal, it's just to slow.

[Narmolanya]

Another failed part 4 on Agro last night. Heals going off 2-3 seconds after they were cast or not at all. I know at least half the tanks were very solid with a good amount of HP. This is with 2 clerics spamming mass cures and heals.

The problem is the lag. From my experiance lately the shroud is the ONLY place I experiance lag of this magnitude.

[DragonMageT]

Another failed part 4 on Agro last night. Heals going off 2-3 seconds after they were cast or not at all. I know at least half the tanks were very solid with a good amount of HP. This is with 2 clerics spamming mass cures and heals.

The problem is the lag. From my experiance lately the shroud is the ONLY place I experiance lag of this magnitude.

If it's DPS lag, have some of the tanks back out or go in and out. We have had to do that in TOD part 3, let up on the DPS just to get through it. I know it takes longer and more resources but better to complete than fail.

If lag gets to bad...there is just not much you can do about it.

[Polarkin]

Seriously ?

Don't follow that advice, mass heal is way to slow. If you have low HP toons in your group, they will die.
If you have lag of any kind..ding! Fighting through blades more dings!

Don't fight through the blades ? lame. Groups I run in always try for a 1 rounder unless DPS proves otherwise.

If your spec'd right, use mass cure light and mod. if you notice red bars getting low, start cycling through all your mass heals except Mass Heal. Do this once the blades start coming in or just before.

Even if I am solo healing, I never use Mass Heal, it's just to slow.

The day the changes to Mass Heal went live I solo healed 4 shrouds (was helping a guildy new to shroud get some ingredients). Mass Heal + Quicken is amazing. In those 4 solo healed shroud runs I had a total of 3 deaths. All in part 4, all were lvl 18+ melee with fewer than 300hp, and all died when they stayed in for blades after I specifically said that anybody with fewer than 400hp needed to back out when the blades got close. Before the blades got in to the melee the only heal I used was Mass Heal. When the blades got in I used Mass Heal and cycled in a MCMW between recasts. No problems at all and at least two of the shroud runs were pretty laggy.

My advice is:

DO use Mass Heal

Know your group and tell them if they can't live for 7 seconds between heals they need to step out of the way or die.

Lag doesn't have to be a killer, but sometimes it is no matter what you do to counter it.

If HP > 400 then staying in thru blades in part 4 with a healer cycling Mass Heal with mass cure xxx in between recasts = perfectly viable and prevents random meteor swarms from hitting me in the face.

[DragonMageT]

The day the changes to Mass Heal went live I solo healed 4 shrouds (was helping a guildy new to shroud get some ingredients). Mass Heal + Quicken is amazing. In those 4 solo healed shroud runs I had a total of 3 deaths. All in part 4, all were lvl 18+ melee with fewer than 300hp, and all died when they stayed in for blades after I specifically said that anybody with fewer than 400hp needed to back out when the blades got close. Before the blades got in to the melee the only heal I used was Mass Heal. When the blades got in I used Mass Heal and cycled in a MCMW between recasts. No problems at all and at least two of the shroud runs were pretty laggy.

My advice is:

DO use Mass Heal

Know your group and tell them if they can't live for 7 seconds between heals they need to step out of the way or die.

Lag doesn't have to be a killer, but sometimes it is no matter what you do to counter it.

If HP > 400 then staying in thru blades in part 4 with a healer cycling Mass Heal with mass cure xxx in between recasts = perfectly viable and prevents random meteor swarms from hitting me in the face.

Or know your abilities as a cleric.. I don't tell anyone to step out...I just heal them.

To each their own method. Ran numerous shrouds pt4 with lag, with toons lower than 400, in blades and had zero deaths, with 2 clerics healing in group of course. I can't remember the last time I ran a shroud without lag in pt4.
It's just so common now...like it's part of the quest or something.

Agree, about lag, doesn't have to be a killer...

[tuta]

I'm still pretty green (only 10 Shrouds so far and only on a cleric) and there are usually two types of deaths. First type: when Harry appears I just start casting Quickened Mass Heal, after it lands, I do nothing until cooldown and then I imediatelly start casting another. And somebody dies before the second one lands. For me, it is just weeding out the gimps, I don't trust my skills enough to try to keep alive somebody who doesn't last between 2 Quickened Mass Heals. Battle goes one and then depending on lag I either spam Mass Heals or try to also pinpoint Heals in between (when the lag isn't massive so I don't need to spam Mass Heal ASAP). Also depends on second healer, what he's doing. When blades start closing, the Mass Heals aren't cutting it anymore and people die - that's the second type of death. But I still don't know when this problematic part begins and also sometimes, somebody is panicking, running off, then he's not being healed, then I also start to panic as people are losing a lot of HPs and don't know what to do, generally. I have to still work on this part, I will try to also use Maximized MMW with Mass Heal (I have only Sup.Pot VI). But I dislike Mass Cures (not Heals), they seem to heal so little and eat so much mana. I generally expect that we will have 2rounder, but for example last Shroud I ran, when I saw the problems we had in Part 2, I said to myself: Looks like 3-rounder, I have to save the mana and use scrolls as much as possible. In reality, it was a 4-rounder. The good part was: we had absolutely no lag. But still better then Shroud before, when after 3 rounds Harry still had half of his hitpoints, so we had to recall. I just don't think it is possible for clerics to afford to have 0 deaths in PUG Shrouds these days.

[Trillea]

Best way to prevent losing melees in shroud - bring 6 or 7 casters with polar ray instead.

[phalaeo]

Simple strategy. Works to soloheal on Normal or Hard, or Elite with minor modifications and maybe one or two mana pots.

1) Turn Quicken on. Elite *only*, also turn on Empower Healing.
2) Target a high HP melee (Barb 20's are excellent choices, as are dwarven rangers).
3) Cast Mass Heal.
4) Check your own HP. If under 300, cast Heal on yourself.
5) Wait until cooldown of Mass Heal is complete.
6) Return to step 2.

Melees do not fight through blades, although the one you have targeted is last to leave. Noone dies unless they are undergeared (under 400/500/600 hp n/h/e or lacking Heavy Fort, or a WF with no healing amplification). Harry simply doesn't have the DPS to outdo your healing. And regardless of lag, your melees are getting a big heal every 6.5 seconds which keeps them alive.

That's interesting advice, Sirgog. I trust you, as I know that you're an experienced player (especially with Clericing), but I've found that Mass Cures are better and we like to just stay in for blades.

Weird.

[phalaeo]

Best way to prevent losing melees in shroud - bring 6 or 7 casters with polar ray instead.

(Funny story)

I was pugging a Shroud a few weeks back and we had a bad combo of not enough DPS and lag, so we wiped in part 4. We all recalled out and we're in the Tavern for a few minutes when all of a sudded someone notices that the Arcanes HP is wavering back and forth and his SP bar is inching downward.

Somebody slowly asks....
"Um, Dude? Are you......still in there?"

Arcane: "Uh, yeah"

"Are you....soloing Harry?"

Arcane: "Er........... Yeah. Decided to give it a shot."

He was in there by himself for a good two to three minutes before Harry eventually got him.

[Zombiekenny]

That's interesting advice, Sirgog. I trust you, as I know that you're an experienced player (especially with Clericing), but I've found that Mass Cures are better and we like to just stay in for blades.

Weird.

In my experience, mass heals make for less lag, and more reliable healing on tanks that have enough hitpoints to last between them.
Just use it, maybe cycle in a mass cure in the middle of the cooldown during blades or something, and don't worry if someone dies, its their fault for coming to shroud with a low buffer.
Its not your responsibility to spend pots in The Shroud, it can be completed with a competent party without doing so, so if you find yourself needing to drink a pot to get completion, its easy to justify not doing so, since those people don't deserve completion anyways.
Using mass heals is a hell of a lot more mana efficient, like, not even hardly comparable, now that its been fixed so it hits everyone.

[Tumarek]

I have the same lag roblems as the OP. Sometimes i get an update on HP every 30 sec so it really is impossible to do anything else then spam and even that gets lagged out sometimes.

What i have discovered is that if you turn off all combat feedback in the UI-Settings it gets a little better.

I sort of have given up being a good healer in the shroud because it just aint working. And it ain't my PC... nothing frozen... just server doesnt want to talk to me

This really needs to be fixed or we will have fewer and fewer healers wanting to do this.

Btw. Quickend empowered Mass Heals work great.... no need wasting SP on cures all the time. If it gets close (blades) you still can throw in a few fast cures till heal is off timer... well you could if the lag wouldnt be so bad .... but for the rest of the time cures are just not worth it....

[Temko]

I'd suggest not puggin tough quests like raids, and u will find ur clerical skills are just fine.
PUG should be changed from "pick up group" to "poisonous unreliable gimps".
Sorry to be so harsh, but it is becoming a bit tiresome.[/COLOR]

this isn't just harsh,it's also horribly false.
contrary to what some seem to think - people generally arn't imbeciles.
those few that are dont last up to shroud.

actually, i dare say that most of those complaining about "noobs" are just arrogantly elist in their view and expect everyone to be a walking wiki of every quest trap and trick.

problems with the new (me included) people getting to shroud are twofold.
1 - lack of experience with it. Explain to people step for step what needs to be done. ye, that dude that ran it 10 times will shrug and not listen but the new guys will. and they will be that much more usefull.

2 - lack of gear.
today i got my first Greater undead bane weapon to farm delera a few times. (lvl 8-10 grind for stuff), i'm running around with 26 AC at lvl8 and my best weapon is gift given +1 shocking burst longsword of pure good.

and yet, a group (a PUG!) of 6 people, 3 of which had never run delera's went smootly.. as level 6(!) on ELITE.... but when i ran Tangleroot with 4 "vets", both of us newbies died repeatedly becouse of their foolish, utterly reckles and elistist actions.

dont blame the newbies in the PUGS. take a good look at whats going wrong before throwing blanket statements out like that. they are no only false, but also blatantly ignorant.

[Zombiekenny]

this isn't just harsh,it's also horribly false.
contrary to what some seem to think - people generally arn't imbeciles.
those few that are dont last up to shroud.

actually, i dare say that most of those complaining about "noobs" are just arrogantly elist in their view and expect everyone to be a walking wiki of every quest trap and trick.

Yes I expect that, or, alternately, I expect people to tell me if they don't, and not do stupid stuff trying to figure it out without letting people know they don't know.

problems with the new (me included) people getting to shroud are twofold.
1 - lack of experience with it. Explain to people step for step what needs to be done. ye, that dude that ran it 10 times will shrug and not listen but the new guys will. and they will be that much more usefull.

The problem isn't with people not explaining, people explain when there are new people that let the group know they are new. The problem is with idiot new people that don't advertise the fact that they have no idea what is going on.

2 - lack of gear.
today i got my first Greater undead bane weapon to farm delera a few times. (lvl 8-10 grind for stuff), i'm running around with 26 AC at lvl8 and my best weapon is gift given +1 shocking burst longsword of pure good.

Don't come to the shroud as a melee unless you can bypass DR, and have heavy fort. Its really the only item requirements, and no, I didn't come into the shroud until I satisfied them myself, back when I got my first ranger shroud ready.

and yet, a group (a PUG!) of 6 people, 3 of which had never run delera's went smootly.. as level 6(!) on ELITE.... but when i ran Tangleroot with 4 "vets", both of us newbies died repeatedly becouse of their foolish, utterly reckles and elistist actions.

Did the 'elitest vets' die? If you can't keep up with them when they are zerging for XP, probably after advertising that that is what they would be doing, then it is your own fault. They have more cause to be upset from you costing them 10% than you have to complain about them.
TR is pointless to run if you don't zerg as fast as possible, since each quest isn't worth a lot, its the fact you can run them fast that makes them worthwhile. Sounds like you joined a speedrun, not their fault.

dont blame the newbies in the PUGS. take a good look at whats going wrong before throwing blanket statements out like that. they are no only false, but also blatantly ignorant.

PUG shrouds have ~20% failure rate. Sometimes more, sometimes less, depending on the group leader.
I have never failed in a guild shroud. Ever.
I have never failed in a shroud with only people I know.
I think there might be a correlation there maybe.

[sirgog]

Seriously ?

Don't follow that advice, mass heal is way to slow. If you have low HP toons in your group, they will die.
If you have lag of any kind..ding! Fighting through blades more dings!

Don't fight through the blades ? lame. Groups I run in always try for a 1 rounder unless DPS proves otherwise.

If your spec'd right, use mass cure light and mod. if you notice red bars getting low, start cycling through all your mass heals except Mass Heal. Do this once the blades start coming in or just before.

Even if I am solo healing, I never use Mass Heal, it's just to slow.

Firstly, I've solohealed two passes on Elite with no deaths using *only* Mass Heal. No deaths, only ~1500 SP used. Not possible any other way. Also solohealed three minutes of part 5 elite (then once I was out of mana, let the FvS20 take over using the same strategy, while I cast Fire Shield, Madstone Rage and waded into melee).

The Mass Heal approach is safer in lag because you can *utterly ignore* players' HP and just cast it every 6.5 seconds (every cooldown) and know that noone is going to die if they have Heavy Fort, Healer's Friend 1 and 20% Healing Amp (if WF) and 400+ HP.

Secondly, better a 2 pass run in a weak group (which adds 2 minutes to completion) than a wipe. PUGs do still wipe in Shroud 4, and nearly every wipe is caused by one of two things - extreme lag, or fighting through blades with a group that can't hack it. In groups I lead, I only have people fight through the blades if it'll turn a 2 pass run into a 1 pass run

Not using Mass Heal is OK in easy content like the Shroud where you don't need to use your most powerful abilities to get the job done, but in nontrivial content like Epics, not learning to use Mass Heal is just flushing mana potions down the drain.

[sirgog]

Don't come to the shroud as a melee unless you can bypass DR, and have heavy fort. Its really the only item requirements, and no, I didn't come into the shroud until I satisfied them myself, back when I got my first ranger shroud ready.

On Normal, I'll take anyone with a non-DR breaking +4 greater bane as well. (Greater Bane adds 14.5 damage, failing to beat DR subtracts 15, so it's like a +3 metalline flametouched weapon that has a bonus to hit).

My ungeared Bard still uses a +4 true chaos greater evil outsider bane weapon in there - it's better than the metalline/PG ones I have.

[Zombiekenny]

On Normal, I'll take anyone with a non-DR breaking +4 greater bane as well. (Greater Bane adds 14.5 damage, failing to beat DR subtracts 15, so it's like a +3 metalline flametouched weapon that has a bonus to hit).

My ungeared Bard still uses a +4 true chaos greater evil outsider bane weapon in there - it's better than the metalline/PG ones I have.

Yeah, greater bane works well as well, and might be cheaper.

[PopeJual]

One other thing that can help is to put up your own LFM for a Shroud raid. If you put up the LFM and take levels 17-20 and have a nice party composition (8ish Ftr/Rgr/Pal/Barb, 1 Bard if available, 1-2 Arcane casters, 1 more healer), then the Shroud goes a lot easier.

I hate making this reccomendation because my Wizard is goign to get flagged for the Shroud today and I want groups to take him, but I know that he's not nearly as valuable as a decent melee character.

Go ahead and be a little picky when you put up your LFM. Check out Myddo and see if they have Heavy Fort (or Medium Fort if WF). Check out their HP. Check out their Strength to see if it's at all reasonable. You don't have to go over their gear with a fine toothed comb, but seeing if they have 300+ HP, Heavy Fort and at least 20 Strength goes a long way in deciding who to take into the Shroud.

[Temko]

Yes I expect that, or, alternately, I expect people to tell me if they don't, and not do stupid stuff trying to figure it out without letting people know they don't know.

- That is partly a point of debate, i normally say i'm new to a quest... but is it that hard to ask "anyone new to this?" i do that when i do a quest i'm familiar with (lets say harbour for newbie like me). you expect people to say it, some expect people to ask it... dont be elistist assuming things. pop a /p "anyone new? ".

The problem isn't with people not explaining, people explain when there are new people that let the group know they are new. The problem is with idiot new people that don't advertise the fact that they have no idea what is going on.

Don't come to the shroud as a melee unless you can bypass DR, and have heavy fort. Its really the only item requirements, and no, I didn't come into the shroud until I satisfied them myself, back when I got my first ranger shroud ready.

wile there are some thinsg you need (Heavy fort obviously), and i find it unlikely anyone of lvl 15+ does not have that, it is neither hte point nor the matter at hand. i dont have a plat for a heavy fort, +4 wisdom, +5 str, +4 greater bane khopesh, etc... i could ahve 1-2 of those, but no more unless i grind my brain out. like i said. i ran dual wielding a longsword and a shortsword in delera elite on lvl6 ... i did 8-10 damage and we did fine, but it did take longer yes.

Did the 'elitest vets' die? If you can't keep up with them when they are zerging for XP, probably after advertising that that is what they would be doing, then it is your own fault. They have more cause to be upset from you costing them 10% than you have to complain about them.

- they did not advertise it as zerg (actually did a Tears zerg last night, 4 perfect runs as lvl7 )
- they did not "rush it" - they ****ed up badly on every level and survived becouse 2 had gear so high that i can even afford 1 PIECE of that on the AH. let alone all of it. and all 4 were living on the CGW pots and a million clickies.
we died becouse they were fighing 3 rooms of mobs. if i ****ed up and died, i dont complain, but when a "vet" who knows what he's doing pulls way to much for a group of people he knows cant keep up: HE ****ed up. and cost ME 10% AND a repair bill.

TR is pointless to run if you don't zerg as fast as possible, since each quest isn't worth a lot, its the fact you can run them fast that makes them worthwhile. Sounds like you joined a speedrun, not their fault.

it wasn't a speedrun, i'm very familier with TR speedruns from my days on EU servers a wile back. but nor is it the point i'm trying to make.
a group of newbies (3 totally new, 2 havign done it once before, 1 vet) ran delera elite at lvl6.
4 veteran and 2 newbis got raped on TR elite at lvl 5 becouse the vets couldn't find the time to press push-to-talk and explain the quest. (example: taking whisperdooms eggs was done by rushing to the room, chugging CGW, dropping egs and runnign out again, not a WORD spoken... both of us died to whisperdoom when wenoticed we were the only 2 left inside. now thats just ****ed up on their side. and we did say we were new.)

btw: i ran it after on elite, took us about 10-15 minutes longer in total. i didn't die once.

PUG shrouds have ~20% failure rate. Sometimes more, sometimes less, depending on the group leader.
I have never failed in a guild shroud. Ever.
I have never failed in a shroud with only people I know.
I think there might be a correlation there maybe.

i can 100% assure you 15% of that 20% is becouse of players who have done it time and again expect everyone to be just as familier with it instead of taking teh 5 seconds during loading screen (yes, ou cantype during loading) to say "/p anyone new to this?"