Bard/Rogue?

[Althar]

Is it possible to build a bard/rogue support/utility build, that would be able to disarm/unlock everything, along with stilll being able to play Bard songs and cast spells at maximum capacity? I'm not too worried about doing alot of damage, as I prefer to play support, so I'd assume it may be possible if I were to neglect strength in favor of intelligence?

[Impatiens]

By everything do you also mean epic traps? Of course, the DCs on those have been made more manageable recently, but they are still fairly high. It is definitely possible to build a bard with rogue splash that can hit most things though. It also depends what you mean by being able to cast at "maximum capacity." You won't lose out on a ton by being something like 18 bard/2 rogue, but you still will lose some: http://ddowiki.com/page/Bard shows bard spell/song progression. As you can see, by not being a pure bard you will lose out on some spell slots and the last rank of improved inspire courage.

[Rabbi_Hordo]

Is it possible to build a bard/rogue support/utility build, that would be able to disarm/unlock everything, along with stilll being able to play Bard songs and cast spells at maximum capacity? I'm not too worried about doing alot of damage, as I prefer to play support, so I'd assume it may be possible if I were to neglect strength in favor of intelligence?

Oh yes it is not only possible but rather easy to do if one doesn't mind a few compromises.

1. You'd have to (and I see you are) be willing to give up your maximum song bonus achieved only upon levelling to 20 bard.

2. You will also likely have to be willing to give up several spell slots (granted these are not much of a sacrifice I can assure you).

3. You need to bear in mind that at level 14 you will have exactly the same song strengths and bonuses (assuming the same APs spent and PrE chosen) as a level 19 bard as you don't get another bump until 20. This opens up a whole new world to you.

4. This means that, in terms of SONGS ONLY, you have 6 levels to play with with no reduction in song strength...at level 15, however, you get the AC song and can decide whether or not you want that.

5. In terms of SPELL POWER, there is a big difference between casting a CC spell with 18 levels of bard and only 15, but if you are concentrating on buff spells...the only difference in regards to the spells bards get is duration.

So it really depends on what kind of bard you want to be. A song buffer, spell buffer sometime healer bard is realistically maxed out for any sort of multiclass at level 15 (including the AC song, or 14 if discounting it). Figure out what kind of bard you want to be and add it to what kind of rogue.

I have around 5 or 6 different builds I'm looking at just for this sort of combination and have run one to the level 14 cap before rerolling it (we didn't have LR/GR/TR then so I could create a new 32pt bard...but ended up doing a drow which is another story. In fact there is a contest in my guild right now to invent some nice creative builds that are viable endgame Bard/Rogues.

[Althar]

So based on what you're saying 14/6 or 15/5 would be the best options? I rarely used my CC spells on my old bard, and focused mainly on using enthrallment for my crowd control, I was primarily buffing and off-healing on occasion with my MP.

[Impatiens]

So based on what you're saying 14/6 or 15/5 would be the best options? I rarely used my CC spells on my old bard, and focused mainly on using enthrallment for my crowd control, I was primarily buffing and off-healing on occasion with my MP.

15 bard/3rogue/2fighter also seems to be a pretty popular build, though since you said you didn't care so much about damage I'm not sure that that is the one for you since it's a more melee focused build in general.

[Rabbi_Hordo]

So based on what you're saying 14/6 or 15/5 would be the best options? I rarely used my CC spells on my old bard, and focused mainly on using enthrallment for my crowd control, I was primarily buffing and off-healing on occasion with my MP.

15 bard/3rogue/2fighter also seems to be a pretty popular build, though since you said you didn't care so much about damage I'm not sure that that is the one for you since it's a more melee focused build in general.

Impatiens has the common build in the quoted post, but my point was NOT that 14/6 or 15/5 were the best options, ONLY that level 14 and 15 songs and 19 songs for that matter are the same so you can feel comfortable stopping bard at 14 or 15 and do whatever you want with the last 5/6 levels.

I have a couple 15B/3R/2Ftr or Ranger builds that I favor when giving out advice. It really depends on the way the person is going to play their toon as to which one I suggest.

I would, however, advise against going Virtuoso to get the Enthrallment enhancement for this kind of build as if you want to get the most bang for your multi-classed buck go Warchanter and get a 5/- DR and an extra to hit and damage bonus over similarly full song enhancment line bards withouth warchanter.

[unbongwah]

Is it possible to build a bard/rogue support/utility build, that would be able to disarm/unlock everything, along with stilll being able to play Bard songs and cast spells at maximum capacity?

Everything everything or just 99% of everything? As this rogue guide points out, there are a couple of traps with absurdly high DCs which basically require a dedicated trapmonkey; but most locks & traps are more reasonable.

No multi-classed spellcaster can cast spells at "maximum capacity," because you are sacrificing spellcasting (inc. capstone) for extra abilities. But you can have pretty good spellcasting as a MC bard, particularly if you're focused on buffs & heals rather than offensive spells.

[Rabbi_Hordo]

Everything everything or just 99% of everything? As this rogue guide points out, there are a couple of traps with absurdly high DCs which basically require a dedicated trapmonkey; but most locks & traps are more reasonable.

No multi-classed spellcaster can cast spells at "maximum capacity," because you are sacrificing spellcasting (inc. capstone) for extra abilities. But you can have pretty good spellcasting as a MC bard, particularly if you're focused on buffs & heals rather than offensive spells.

Very true, but the absurdly high DCs can be hit with a minimum stat starting point of 16 and a whole bunch of equipment and buffs...not that folks would necessarily do that...and further the DCs on Epic have been nerfed so far as to make the NFL look like touch football with all three fat cousins from "that" side of the family at the family reunion.

[quityourjobs]

As others have stated, you can make a Bard with some rogue levels that can do almost everything as far as roguing is concerned. The problem on epic traps is not so much the trap DCs (you can pot and boost up to about 60 with 2 or 3 Rogue levels), but from the very high reflex saves that you need to safely bypass the traps. I tend to get zapped a lot more (with about a 36 reflex) than the high-save classes on my 15 bard / 3 rogue / 2 ftr.

[winsom]

If your primary goal is song support and buffs then 20th level war-chanter is better than multi-classing as a rogue.

Don't add rogue to a bard build only for locks, traps and evasion. Those are very useful, but you should try to do more. Your offensive magic ability will often fail at the higher levels so do not invest too much into charisma or spell penetration.

As a bard/rogue you want to specialize in melee damage-dealing with some good healing options, if not a Lot of Healing power.

Strength-based for attack rolls and damage if your primary goal is dealing damage. However only a small percentage of high-level damage is done by strength bonuses, so you do not need to maximize strength when it too-greatly hurts your other ability scores. You want a good attack roll. That is more important.

Avoid taking the Weapon Finesse feat if you can. There are better feats you will want (I will list below) and qualifying for War-chanter requires 2 feats. War-chanter is really good and worth having to spend the feats and having lower UMD and Charisma, etc.

Spell Singer is a nice alternative for the +100 Spell points, the spell song (good for extra healings and buffs), the +2 on UMD checks meaning you can start with lower Charisma. Spell Singers also do not need to take Weapon Focus like War-chanters do. You can be a better healer with these benefits but your group will be missing out on the +2 damage and DR 5 that War-chanters give out. That is a big deal.

Do not concern yourself with Armor Class. It's not worth trying to do beyond the low-mid levels. Have enough Dexterity, or Intelligence + Insightful Reflex feat, in order to make Evasion saves. Avoid investing "too much" here because you want most of your build points to be in Strength with secondary in Intelligence. Only need Dexterity if you are TWF.

Use a two handed weapon with power attack. Plan ahead IF you want to consider Two Weapon Fighting feats because you will need to have the extra feats AND a naturally high Dexterity to qualify. More attacks is great with Sneak Attack. You will certainly need 1 or 2 fighter levels for the bonus feats if you are taking several TWF or 2-handed-fighting feats.

Human is an all around good choice for bard/rogue because of the extra skill point and feat and +1 to Strength enhancement.

Drow can be a good choice for a Two weapon Fighter-Trapper because of +2 Int, Cha, Dex, Spot and Search (and enhancements). However drow are -2 CON on an already lowish HP bard/rogue, and it is harder to take all the feats you want without the Human bonus feat. You will probably have go without one of these: Extend Spell, Maximize Spell, Improved Critical, Toughness, Greater Two Weapon Fighting. A bard/rogue ideally wants ALL of those, and probably Skill Focus UMD too (until you craft a Shroud +5 UMD item)

If you want to maximize your damage per swing then you need to be sneak attacking at all times. This is why you don't care about armor class. You attack from the rear and never the front. If you take Rogue 4th you will do 3 more damage per swing than a Rogue 3rd due to sneak attack enhancements. Rogue 4th has a couple of other minor benefits compared to 3rd. The best alternative is to take Fighter 2nd rather and stay at Rogue 3rd. You do this when you need the extra feat and the +1 Strength enhancement from Fighter 2nd.

If you want to be a good combat-healer at high level you need Maximize. You also probably want 16 bard levels for Mass Cure Moderate Wounds, although my character gets by with maximized Cure Crits, Mass Cure Lights and a high UMD score for Heal scrolls.

I chose to make my bard/rogue/fighter as a Greater TWF sneak attacker that gains extra damage from 4 rogue levels, but loses out on damage by having lower strength and spell singer rather than war-chanter. This lets me meaningfully contribute melee damage and also have enough resources for Maximized Healing. I know many bard/rogues instead opt for very minimal healing and more melee-damage output which is a fine alternative as long as someone else is doing the healing.