Bluff, Tumble, Jump, and Bal,what do we really need?

[JarvisW]

I tried to search for this, but the forum came up with tons of nothing..

I read the article on how much spot/search/ DD/ unlock I would need at 20, so I was trying to see what the other stats would need to be then.

I have a lvl 13 rog/rng, but am rolling a new one to get it right from the start, and have just got back to the game after 3 years off, so I'm a bit behind on everything.

He has a high tumble and jump, but I'm not seeing that much of a use for high scores in either, as I'm not taking mobility, and I can use +15 items for either, so whats the downside to not having those skills?

Also, I'm learning how to bluff pull, and use bluff in fights for the SA. So what should I shoot for in that stat by 20? My build has a base of 21.

Lastly, I'm going for Elven Arcane Archer with this build (see my other thread), so I won't have Acrobat, so what kind of Balance should I have? My build has 20 base there.

Getting this nailed down could help with my starting stats as I wouldn't need to use INT as much.

Thanks for any advice!

[PowerOfRaistlin]

Let's start with the skills.

Jump-
Depends on your strength. Most people go 10-15 jump on non str focused toons as there is a belt that gives you 3 clickies of 15 minute jumps (+30 to your jump).
Tumble-
Tumble is always fun, nothing like diving out of the way of a mob with a front flip & about facing. This skill, however is entirely flavor.
Bluff-
Bluff is rarely ever useful to you. It has a long cool-down and only affects 1 target. Diplomacy on the other hand affects all opponents within range of you in your frontal arc.
Balance-
Depends entirely on your dexterity. The higher the better! This determines how long you spend on your arse and thus are vulnerable. A maxed out score pretty much ensures very little down time.

Totals
You're aiming for the mid-low 50's with all of your trap skills (spot, search, disable, open).

[JarvisW]

Ok cool, thats about what I needed to know.

As far as bluff goes, I like to solo, and it helps me pull with it. But thats not going to help much when I'm close to 20, as I probbly wont be able to solo much then.

I may start working on diplo, or I may put the rest in Haggle or something.

Thanks for the info!

[Uchuujin-San]

Jump, depending on your lvl split you might be able to get the Ranger spell Jump which gives you at ranger caster lvl 9 +30 to jump. If you can cast that then i wouldnt bother with skill points there. Otherwise 10-15 sounds about right

Tumble IS really fun. but its only rteally necessary to put enough points in there that you still have 1 pt with armor and shield equipped. though if you hit.. 35+ i think you can start doing flips, again Rangers get this buff spell too but i cant remember what the bonus to the skill is.

Bluff, Totally agree with Power.. nothing to add here.

Balance, Ditto.

Additionally you might wanna shoot for maxing out UMD if you can. with 23 ranks and a few items you can pretty much cast raise scrolls at least 50% of the time (UMD 36, enough to get the cleric up if things go south) and with a bit more investment can cast Heal scrolls (UMD 40) , which makes soloing much easier. Course this depends on how many skill points you have per lvl, and how many skills you want to keep up etc.

[Shishizaru]

Jump, depending on your lvl split you might be able to get the Ranger spell Jump which gives you at ranger caster lvl 9 +30 to jump. If you can cast that then i wouldnt bother with skill points there. Otherwise 10-15 sounds about right

Tumble IS really fun. but its only rteally necessary to put enough points in there that you still have 1 pt with armor and shield equipped. though if you hit.. 35+ i think you can start doing flips, again Rangers get this buff spell too but i cant remember what the bonus to the skill is.

Bluff, Totally agree with Power.. nothing to add here.

Balance, Ditto.

Additionally you might wanna shoot for maxing out UMD if you can. with 23 ranks and a few items you can pretty much cast raise scrolls at least 50% of the time (UMD 36, enough to get the cleric up if things go south) and with a bit more investment can cast Heal scrolls (UMD 40) , which makes soloing much easier. Course this depends on how many skill points you have per lvl, and how many skills you want to keep up etc.

I would take Jump to 10 (including modifiers). The skill "caps" at 40, so 10 + 30 (spell) = 40. (You can push Jump higher, but apparently anything after 40 makes the character jump the same height)

The Tumble spell grants a +10 Enhancement bonus.

I would actually say UMD is on the "core" skills you should max out (the others being Disable Device, Search and arguably Balance). With 6 Base skill points, you have no reason NOT to go for UMD. ^^

[Uska]

I prefer diplomacy to bluff its area effect although it isnt any good solo and bluff is. also you dont really need more then 10 jump including stat mods ranks and items since it caps at 40 and a caster can give you +30 as to tumble I usually dont put more then enough to give me a positive ranking in it unless I have the extra skill points. If you dotn have a bard for haggleing gear for you haggle is good to have.

[JarvisW]

Thanks all!! Great advice.

Yes, my UMD is maxxed out. its been very helpful.

I have been tinkering around, and if I go for a 17 dex, then I only get a 12 int, and no Diplo OR Bluff, so is it worth the extra 1 dex, or should I get +2 int and use that for Diplo, for the higher end areas?

Or drop hide and move silent, is that even useful later?

I am playing with the builder, and so far its looking pretty good, but who really knows till I play it lol.

[Draccus]

My general take on skills for rogues.

Big 4: Max
Jump: Max if you're a dex build, half if you're a strength build
Tumble: Half but I keep it higher because I tumble everywhere, especially solo fighting tough mobs.
Balance: Max if you're a strength build, half if you're a dex build
UMD: Max and sell your soul for even a +1.
Diplomacy: Max
Hide/Move Silently: Max if you use stealth a lot (I do) and half if you don't.
Intim: Ignore unless you have some crazy multiclass intimitank rogue build.

Bluff, Swim, Listen - Ignore

[Razcar]

My general take on skills for rogues.

Big 4: Max
Jump: Max if you're a dex build, half if you're a strength build
Tumble: Half but I keep it higher because I tumble everywhere, especially solo fighting tough mobs.
Balance: Max if you're a strength build, half if you're a dex build
UMD: Max and sell your soul for even a +1.
Diplomacy: Max
Hide/Move Silently: Max if you use stealth a lot (I do) and half if you don't.
Intim: Ignore unless you have some crazy multiclass intimitank rogue build.

Bluff, Swim, Listen - Ignore

I agree, but with the possible exception of Balance. After the air ele mega-nerf, it very seldom happens I get knocked down on any character. And if you will go for Acrobat II it is not worth putting points in at all really since you will get Kip-Up. (Although on the way to level 12 ((and Acro II)) with 0 Balance you will suffer some annoying trips by wolves/hobgoblins/dogs etc.)

[JarvisW]

Thanks guys.

Razcar, as I said above, I'm going EAA, so I'm not going to take Athlete.

I'm still playing with the builder, but I may wait to roll him till I open 32 pts on my new server.

So, is there solo-able quests past lvl 10? If so, does Move silent and hide even count?

Thanks!

[Razcar]

So, is there solo-able quests past lvl 10? If so, does Move silent and hide even count?

Sure. You can solo most stuff, depends on you really. And there's always Casual to learn the quest. Some higher level quests are really popular rogue solo places, like Crucible, Monastery of the Scorpion, Sins of Attrition.

Sneaking won't take you past many quest objectives, but you can avoid lots of fights on the way to them. Many times you will have to manouver the mobs though since often they fill up the whole corridor, and if you bump into them they will notice you. Also invest in Invisibility clickies, and buy Invisibility scrolls when your UMD is high enough, and check out different methods used for sneaking here on the rogue forums.

[JarvisW]

Ah, thanks!

I would probably try and pull them out of the halls, instead of sneaking thru.

Hmmm, I think what I really want, which is max hide and sneak AND Diplo or bluff, I'm going to have to wait till I can roll a 32pt-er.

Thanks for all the help!

[Osma77]

Didn't see it stated, but tumble allows you to fall far distances without taking damage. Tumble of at least 1 allows you to reduce a signifigant amount of damage, but you will still be hurt (had a dwarf cleric in full plate without even one point. walking off of a curb delt me 2 damage). While feather-falling boots/spell/ring will let you do the same thing, having at least some tumble is useful. Feather falling slows you down signifigntly and sometimes it is very useful to fall quickly. Besides, i have a tendancy to keep featherfall in my inventory and have something more important on instead. With 10 tumble, you can base jump off of a cliff (or fall off the catwalk of a tall zone like dalera's) and only take 10-20 damage. With 15-20, you can jump from anywhere i have ever been and never die from falling damage, and often you wont take any damage at all. (your results may very ).

For any char: tumble = +1 after armor/shield
For monk: as much as you want, but lower then others, due to slowfall.
For rogues: as much as you want, throwing in at least 10 is not unreasonable.

[bokaboka]

Now I was under the impression that getting tripped was an opposed STR check.
I also heard that the DC of getting up is always the same, no matter the source of the trip. So maxing it wouldn't do that much good, I guess.

This is all hearsay of course, so hopefully someone will know for sure.

[JarvisW]

Well, Osma77, I agree mostly, but I have to balance everything I want, OR, actually hitting things at the high end! So I could have an 18int, and get every skill maxxed, or I can try a 12 or possibly 10, and out the rest into Dex and Str.

Boka, tripped is different from busting your ass in Grease or Ice.

At least I think thats what Bal is used for.