Hitting the wall, again (stuck at lvl 14)

[ghortagg]

This my 3rd attempt at DDO. (2006, 2008 and 2009), and i m having rough time.

Each time i try ddo (which i love) i'm hitting a wall, a certain point from which every thing seem to get A LOT harder:

1st time i quit around lvl4 (trying to play solo rogue)
2nd time it was around lvl 10 ( My GF joined in, and hirelings were there)
3rd time is now my 3rd time (was EU player, now on US server)


I'm lvl 14 (never been so high) and i'm trying to do Desert/Necropolis 3/restless island


So i m stuck with lvl 10-12 mission (being 14)
And i mean lvl 9-10 were hellish (Jungle of Khyber for instance, or the last mission protect Coyle)
Beholders and Mummies are a Big problem (i want to finish necro 3)

My GF and i manage to do the missions but at a heavy cost. So heavy that we don't have fun anymore

Ex: when my GF dies three times in a mission, usually she quits DDO for a week, or two...

(I've included the parameters that describe our game play so you can have the best idea how we play)



SO Could you assert/deny the following

1° YES THERE IS A WALL. and getting past the original content needs preparation/grind/training, don't loose hope!
2° YES THERE IS A WALL. and the way you play the game won't get you past that wall (that option makes me very sad since i don't intend to play otherwise)
3° NO THERE'S NO WALL. only the game getting a little harder and what you are dong wrong is ________ (insert advice)
4° NO THERES NO WALL. you just suck at this game



Thank you for your input

Parameters

* My GF plays a Kensai 14 Greataxe, i play a rogue 12/ranger2 and we a have priest hireling (expensive)
* We play only the two of us
* We like the Nice and Easy style
* We try to be informed. (Reading the forum, checking the build advices)
* We try to do all the missions avalaible in order (not setting a foot in Gianhold before finishing desert)
* We do not Grind content (doing the mission ONCE on normal, getting back on Hard/Elite once for Favor a few lvl later)
* We do not Cheat ( NOT using maps, dungeons guide, video library of quest)
* We are not over stuffed. (equpping ourselves on our own)
* We do not play on casual mode (last glimpse of honor) but we are casual players
* we absolutely, totally HATE zerging

[hydra_ex]

3. For you, there is a wall. Its hard to be casual, yet duo stuff at lvl 14. Sure, for many of us vets, its possible, but for new players, unfortunately, you might want to consider convincing a few more friends to play. Even 4 people would make a huge difference.

Or just group to try it out, and possibly for a static group of like-minded individuals with whom you can have fun.

Barring that, you might be able to derive some enjoyment of pulling off a slight grind in the various encounter areas you have available (sorrowdusk and the menechtarun are all very good) It might take a while to find all the rares, and since you don't use maps, you can consider it not grinding until you find all the rares!

[Mecholi22]

You two are going to have to step out of the box and group some.. No offense but I always wanted to ask someone with that play style.. Why play a MMO if you like to solo or play only with people you know? Wouldn't XBox or PS3 be the same thing?

[ghortagg]

I'd like to thank everybody for their advices

1° my priest hireling is used as a mobile shrine, not in battle.
2° i m quite relieved that the main problem is duo-ing, because that can be worked around
3° I m wondering if an Arcane Hireling (wiz our sorc) can ease up the path a little

So right now i'll try to bring that wall down

Why play a MMO if you like to solo or play only with people you know? Wouldn't XBox or PS3 be the same thing?

I play mostly du to the RPG part of (MMO)RPG.
Would a Lan Party Game RPG would please me ? oh yes
MMORPG just have more content, are more inovative.
The occasional chat with strangers is nice, the global market is nice.
But i still play those games as Standard RPG.


Why don't we group ?

*Because we like to discover things by our own.
When doing a dungeon simply is rushing behind someone, not learning, not experincing the mood of the dungeon, we don't have any kind of fun.
*Because the language is a barrier, (English is not my native language) and sometimes is hard to understand the yells of the leader
*Because we LOVE to play at our own pace, and it's hard to do with stangers.


Anyhow, i d like to express my thankfullness, for the advices and the support.

[samthedagger]

Here's a bit of advice if you are interested.

1) Create an LFM stating that you are a casual player and would like to take things at an easy pace. I would say something to the effect of "2 casual players LFM to run quests. all optionals." Then see where that takes you.
2) If you join someone else's group avoid those with LFMs that state they are zerging or rushing. It may not be so explicit, but most people give at least some indication as to their play style with their LFM ad. Something as simple as whether the person bothers to use proper spelling, punctuation, and capitalization can indicate to you whether you are dealing with a lazy player who just wants to rush through something or someone who actually took a minute to properly word the LFM.
3) When joining or starting a group with players you do not know, explain the language barrier up front. Say that you don't understand the spoken word very well and that you would prefer the other players to type important information. I have several Europeans on my friends list and I'm happy to take the time to type if it's more than just banter. Your English seems as good as any native speaker in the written form, so at the least, I imagine you should have an easy time expressing yourself.

You'll run into some jerks who might use the language barrier as an excuse to be an ass. But chances are those people would be jerks to anyone they met. But finding some friends that you can regularly group with is a rewarding experience. It's worth weeding through a few jerks to find them.

[krud]

I began this game in a static group of 4. We played much the same way you did; doing most quests only once, at or near level on normal (sometimes hard), and rarely repeating quests. We found it much harder to progress at the higher levels with the same approach we used in the lower levels. Quests at the higher levels seem to need multiple attempts in order to figure out. With fewer high level quests, i guess they were designed to take longer to figure out, in order to stretch the content a bit. It can be frustrating for a group like yours.

I would also suggest grouping with others. If you don't want spoilers, then maybe roll some alts and level them up with others, doing quests you already know. It will give you different perspectives on how to play characters, and tackle problems. You will pick up lots of useful information, that you may not have thought of otherwise. Of course, some will be zergfests, where you don't learn much, but at least they go by fast, and you can continue on in another group, by yourselves, or on your main high level toons.

I will say that if you try to continue as is on your two characters, you will find it harder to continue at the higher levels. There just is not enough content to level up by just doing quests one time each on normal. You will inevitably end up repeating some quests; first it will take multiple tries just to complete some of them once, and again in order to level. Either that or you'll get into character creation by rolling alts. If none of that appeals to you, then unfortunately the game will have run its course.

[Antheal]

we a have priest hireling

I think I may have detected what the problem could be.

There are no cleric hirelings in this game, however there is a malicious computer virus on the DDO servers that masquerades as these so-called "cleric hirelings" that have the function of instilling confidence in the player only to leave them to die at the worst moment, usually by attracting the attention of monsters and then getting themselves killed while doing nothing to defend themselves...

[Disclaimer: That comment might have been a joke. Or might not. Your mileage may vary.]

[hydra_ex]

I think I may have detected what the problem could be.

There are no cleric hirelings in this game, however there is a malicious computer virus on the DDO servers that masquerades as these so-called "cleric hirelings" that have the function of instilling confidence in the player only to leave them to die at the worst moment, usually by attracting the attention of monsters and then getting themselves killed while doing nothing to defend themselves...

[Disclaimer: That comment might have been a joke. Or might not. Your mileage may vary.]

What I like to do with hirelings is park them at back and have them top me off in between fights. Hopefully the OP has realized this, as he seems to be relatively intelligent.

[Anderei]

Yes, this is an online game out of a reason, also groups teach you stuff.

Altough vets can solo stuff, its with tons of playing experiences, uber gear and hundrets of pots, for most joe-normals this game runs better in groups, for what it was designed for.

Just open groups yourself for stuff you want to run and put a friendly "no zerging please" in the LFM, and you should be fine.

[Grimdiegn]

I'd say the problem is neither one of you is playing an arcane. Reroll that rogue into a WF wiz with a level of rogue and you will find higher level quests become a lot easier to duo.

[Terelle]

Relying on a hireling for healing really doesn't help the situation. If one of you was capable of healing both (ie, she was kensai but you were cleric/fvs, or she was WF melee and you were WF sorc/wiz) things would definitely go a lot more smoothly.

Cleric hirelings are a little... lets say tactically limited. They also don't have the spell pools, reflexes, or gear of your typical pug cleric, who by the level you are at has had at least some practice at keeping themselves (and hopefully the group) alive.

My suggestion would be to the both of you, find a like minded, casual guild who enjoys a similar playstyle to you. You can look on the server forums for the server you play on. This will expand your grouping options a lot if you can find a few others who can shore up your group and help, and save you money on hirelings.

Or join/start groups which say 'no zerging' in the LFM, to try to find others who play similarly.

[Kam-Ekaze]

Hey there,

I'm a relatively new player, I started last year when the game became free (I'm VIP, it was only the advertisement push that got me to be honest, previous the game becoming f2p I had never even heard of DDO, anyway...) I have managed to solo and duo most of the quests in the game with a little skill and luck. I'm not really a solo player, but I hate doing many quests blindly and tend to prefer having an idea of what I'm up against first. Hence, my first toon I took to cap was mostly a soloist for me to learn all the content, and pick up a few groups here and there when I wanted to be social.

Short-manning content, from what I've noticed is first and foremost a drain on your character's wallet, and the costs only get higher as you level. You mention finding hirelings expensive, but in reality they are the cheapest source of healing, as even wands which output a lot less healing are a lot dearer. I should mention about hirelings is that if you are in an outdoor area like Sands, you can use them for hours as long as you don't head back to town. You may be able to get many quests done before heading back, and saving yourself a couple plat pieces in the process.

I think you should stick with it and hone your skills until you succeed. It's a game after all, and the goals you've set yourself should make it all that much more rewarding. There are some quests that you will find near impossible to solo before moving onto other content. For example, the pre-raid quest in Sands (ADQ1) will be very very tough for the two of you without any outside help. I believe the queen there is CR 25 or so on normal. Maybe higher. She's a purple boss (meaning extreme difficulty) with a lot of health.

I'm not sure if it will help, but I posted a guide on survival a while ago in my guild boards for newer players to read, I'll post it on my next post as optional reading if you are interested. It is lengthy but might contain some information of value to help you along.

Hope it helps.

[Claver]

* We try to do all the missions avalaible in order (not setting a foot in Gianhold before finishing desert)
* We do not Grind content (doing the mission ONCE on normal, getting back on Hard/Elite once for Favor a few lvl later)
* We do not play on casual mode (last glimpse of honor) but we are casual players

I have not yet found the wall in Gianthold. I can solo there and I consider myself a casual player with suboptimal gear and mediocre skills.

I think you and your girlfriend can still experience the game on your own terms in a static group with only some modest adjustments to your play style.

I play in guild with 2 other players. Sometimes 2 of us run the quest; sometimes all 3. We grab hirelings when needed. We also solo but try to stay in the same level range. I too try to do the missions in available order.

Here are the keys that have helped me and my team.

(1) There is no shame in Casual mode at the upper level. Some quests are designed for a larger team. If you are playing as one or 2 people you are playing at an extreme disadvantage. If I hadn't run Madstone Crater on casual with a hireling, myself and a friend we would have never survived - there was plenty of challenge for 2+ people. If normal proves too frustrating don't beat your head against a wall - recall and try again on casual. Or better yet! Conquer casual first as a 2 man team and then move on to normal and hard. 14th+ quests are meant for more than 2 players.

(2) It may be necessary to play content that is a few levels below you. I soloed and duod quests before dungeon scaling existed. To compensate, we had to be several levels above the quest. We would wait until we were 10th level before running a level 8th quest for example. You may need to use a similar approach.

(3) With the above in mind, run quests on Casual, Normal, and Hard before getting to far outside the level range and avoid leveling up until you have enough xp to advance 2 levels. Using this approach, I have a 15th level character with enough xp to level to 16th who is just now doing the level 12 and level 13 quests in gianthold (soloing casual mode).

(4) Play as though you were in the dungeon by yourself, use stealth to "body pull" one or two monsters towards you to kill them one at a time. Use arrows to kill from a distance. Pull monsters into traps.

(5) It may be too late to give you this advice unless you reroll or reincarnate but if you plan to solo or play as a couple you should play characters that are self sufficient or synergistic together. Consider a dragonmarked halfling ftr/rng/monk who can cast heal 5 times a day as well as regen/meditate. Warforged wizard/sorcerer combos with other classes can cast repair on themselves. As a ranger/rogue you should be able to at least use some cure wands and perhaps some scrolls if your UMD is sufficient.



my last bit of advice is consider "occasionally" opening your group up to just one additional player to see another play style. You can send a tell to the player, explain what you want (slow play, no spoilers, etc.). Just letting one person in from time to time shouldn't destroy your experience. Pick someone randomly from a gulld.

If you are on Sarlona I would be happy to help - just send me a PM.

[Peo]

6. Ex: when my GF dies three times in a mission, usually she quits DDO for a week, or two...

1. My GF plays a Kensai 14 Greataxe, i play a rogue 12/ranger2 and we a have priest hireling (expensive)
1. We play only the two of us
2. We try to be informed. (Reading the forum, checking the build advices)
3. We do not Grind content (doing the mission ONCE on normal, getting back on Hard/Elite once for Favor a few lvl later)
4. We do not Cheat ( NOT using maps, dungeons guide, video library of quest)
5. We are not over stuffed. (equpping ourselves on our own)

1. MMOs are not to be played by your self. You would be shocked at how easy the game becomes if you had a 6~12 man party.

2. Do you? I wasn't aware rogues get talked about being solo experts here.

3. If you go back and play a few quests a few more times you'll be level 17 and probably capable of finishing the quests your having problems with now.

4. How is looking up a map cheating? You nap a trail map at a park or look up directions to Six Flags before going to it.

5. Eh? So is every person with their highest level toon. Everyone managed that at some point.

6. I personally hate when people rage quit just because they died. Whoop-di-do. Multiple death happens and even at level 18 it only costs 2,000gp, it's ok I make 100,000gp per shroud run and have next to no use for gold as a FvS. My wizard minds it even less since her gear sucks and being killed to a point everything breaks isn't much of a hinderence.

I think the very core of your problem is playing the game wrong. It's ok and can be done, but don't complain about things being too hard, it is your choice that makes it so.

[vindicater]

First almost all the advice you have got so far sound good and I wont rehash it.
Second yes you are hitting a wall but it is one you have built for yourself then get frustrated when you cant scale it. Start looking at maps and information about specific quests as rummers or secret tresure maps you have found. If you continue to go into content blind you will continue to die.
You really did not pick a very sinergetic team to twoman content with. If you are considering rerolling that is where I would start.

[Talon_Sky]

I have yet to see rogues do well solo/duo.

My gf and I have duoed the entire game so far. I have a single level in rogue and she has two, I believe. Otherwise, we're decently soloable builds and able to help each other....she went ranger/paladin, and I went TWF bard. She kills and tanks, I heal and do skill stuff, as well as help kill occasionally. Groups kick my butt still, but when fighting a single mob I destroy it with my buffs on.

That being said, Bard buffs would be a big help here. Inspire Courage is amazing, especially when the enhancements for it are taken. Blur makes a huge difference, and Rage is possibly the most wonderful spell in this game.

Seriously, reroll into a bard or cleric. You obviously need the healing if you're using a hireling, so why not do it yourself?

Clerics, FvS, bards, paladins and rangers all have the in-built ability of using (divine) healing and other beneficial wands. UMD users can also use (eventually) most wands in the game as well as heal scrolls (for roughly 150 health back before wand/scroll enhancements).

Just being nit-picky, but bard spells aren't divine. They're arcane, which means that that desperately needed Cure spell could fail if you're not specced right. It sucks :s

[Anneliese]

I think the main problem might lie in hireling and aggro management.

The key strategy is to pull only what you can handle and then use the hireling to top yourself off after - repeat until dungeon done.


Also, there is no shame in going in on casual first if you dont know the dungeon.



Another thing is that your team is not exactly optimal - but if you dont even want to repeat some dungeons, I dont think you want to start again...

[Baloran]

I complety understand how you feel, I had the same experience with my solo rogue/fighter/bard build. Hit my personal wall around level 10, where on level content became difficult to solo.

What I noticed: If you play on normal, dungeon scaling will consider your hireling as a 0.5 player, meaning that the dungeon difficulty is scaled to two and a half players. If the hireling is not doing its job properly (i.e. dies a lot), you end up with a harder difficulty than nescessairy. So if you two man/woman it without a hireling, its a little bit easier. Won't make a big difference at higher difficulties though.

Was reason enough for me not to take a hireling with me for solo play, healing myself with wands between fights.
I assume your rogue is umd specced, so healing between fights with cure light/mod wands is not too expensive.

[hockeyrama]

I am fairly new so really can't say about everything here. Just that the biggest thing to me is there are two builds I have seen solo very well. The WF wiz (or sorc) and teh halfling light monk. The dragonmarks from the halfllng give you some of your own healing to supplement you so you can make it back to hireling. Hirelings are not that expensive if that the only real cost. Ther problem to me seems more of a how to deal with healing or damage taken while you fighting if cleric not with you as you mentioned. Both the WF wiz and the monk can heal themselves. You could add a lvel of rogue or two. I duo with my kid and we are two halflings, one monk and the other rogue. She stays back and lets me take the aggro, and she tries to heal a bit if absoloutely needed during the fight, but after I can heal myself. Eventually we will probable park a hireling but not sure if need much else.

The Wf wiz with a wf barb, also seems a good idea. The wf wiz can heal both very well, and yet can do massive damage. Once they get FW a friend of mine starts soloing everythnig wtih his WF wiz, he justs runs around, collecting all the bad guys (if they weakish) then runs them around a FW. They die he lives and then heals, then rinse and repeat.

I not saying these the only ways just saying try to have some healing that helps in fight or before you get back to hireling.

Also another thing I noticed is that you mentioned the frustration over hireling cost. While once you get higher up it much more costly dying a few times as the repair bills can be way more expensive then the cost of your hireling.

However, you seem to know the game really well and I thnk you two will get past your wall. Just have to come up with a duo of builds that works well and does not need to rely on hireling. I mean even two light path halfling monks might be neat. Great solo survivability and they have improved evasion so just run around traps. Put points in UMD and can stuff to help with locks. That last I never saw but was just thining could be good.

Good luck and let us know when you get past your barrier.

[Lehrman]

SO Could you assert/deny the following

1° YES THERE IS A WALL. and getting past the original content needs preparation/grind/training, don't loose hope!

Quest knowledge, gear, and the right class for the quest. don't lose hope!

2° YES THERE IS A WALL. and the way you play the game won't get you past that wall (that option makes me very sad since i don't intend to play otherwise)

At low-mid levels, duo melees is expensive unless you are geared very well or have high AC. At high levels its very expensive unless you have a lot of fast-click, self-healing (wands while running away and jumping so you don't get hit, lay hands, etc.) or high AC or ridiculously high DPS--both generally imply uber gear.

3° NO THERE'S NO WALL. only the game getting a little harder and what you are dong wrong is ________ (insert advice)

There is no wall, only Zuul...My advice is that if someone asks you if you are a God, you say, "Yes." Most heavily-twinked, solo-questing toons start slowing down at around level 12, most non-heavily twinked start slowing down around level 8 and hit a wall around level 12--you can push the boundaries of the wall by doing slayers in explorer areas. You are not doing anything wrong, but it is worth farming a lot of bound to account gear so that when you create more characters, the leveling pain is lessened.

Parameters

* My GF plays a Kensai 14 Greataxe, i play a rogue 12/ranger2 and we a have priest hireling (expensive)

You can cut some of the expense by using cure serious wands on your rogue/ranger rather than drinking cure serious pots. With the wands you can keep your Gf alive better than that hireling can, but if you are healing her, then you are not fighting. Another expense cutter is the gathering of haste clickies to be used instead of pots. Also, if you have a semi-decent AC (40+) then spending plat on barkskin+3 potions may actually reduce your costs more since you may well get hit less--if you are a 2wpn build, then using shield spell clickies or wands will boost your ac even more. The only thing better than getting healed is not getting hit int he first place.

* We play only the two of us

This may well limit the quests you can run with the classes you have chosen. As you get better gear you will begin to overcome class barriers.

* We try to do all the missions avalaible in order (not setting a foot in Gianhold before finishing desert)
* We do not Grind content (doing the mission ONCE on normal, getting back on Hard/Elite once for Favor a few lvl later)

This will slow down the speed at which you can level, especially if you are not skipping the quests that are cost prohibitive or repeating the quests that are great xp even without the bonus for first time completion.

* We do not Cheat ( NOT using maps, dungeons guide, video library of quest)
* We are not over stuffed. (equpping ourselves on our own)

Its ok to buy from the auction house, but good luck finding something at a reasonable price. Periodically checking the vendors may net you an occasional vorpal or disruptor and will make your life a lot easier in the long term.

* we absolutely, totally HATE zerging

Zerging is really just a matter of DPS. When your girlfriend hits a mob with stunning blow and kills it on the followup swing or crits/kills a mob in one swing it is zerging on a micro-scale. When she kills a mob with every other swing from the start of the quest to the end of the quest and the bodies are like bread crumbs from a children's story, then whether you like it or not, you have zerged.

Zerging has a bad name because people who can't zerg try to zerg and get the party or themselves killed. Run a non-epic quest with a 70+ strength 800 hp barbarian who is geared for epics and you will see what zerging is meant to look like. Its sick, awesome, but sick.

The moral of the story is: If you are having fun, then you win. Its ok to be level 14 for the next decade if you are having fun doing it.