It's official. . .

[vVAnjilaVv]

My bad, alittle something for you for responding in haste.

*blushes* Back at yah and thanks!

I may have to start leveling my barb on Khyber again

[Mithran]

I may have came off a little short tempered.. IMO, there is nothing wrong with your system, as long as everyone is aware at the begining, just like there is nothing wrong with the "Guild/friend loot ninja system" as long as everyone is aware at the begining.

It's great you all have your own loot policy, then you don't have to worry about things that go crazy.

I just have a different view on what is "Fair"

I guess its not actually what goes on at the chest that defines fair.... but It's how we perceive/interpret it. Everyone is different

Tempers run hot over this issue (and had been from our all-guild runs, too). It was time for us to clear the air in The Hand and try to set a standard that others (I'm hoping your guild, specifically) will follow. I've never known you to not follow this policy in all the runs I've done with you and this policy is mostly being met with some relief in The Hand.

[Durion]

*blushes* Back at yah and thanks!

I may have to start leveling my barb on Khyber again

Well, if you decide to do so, you know who you can run with and be treated as an equal instead of a source of completion.

[Mithran]

Well, if you decide to do so, you know who you can run with and be treated as an equal instead of a source of completion.

That's exactly the point, Durion; you're right.

[Lleren]

I may have came off a little short tempered.. IMO, there is nothing wrong with your system, as long as everyone is aware at the begining, just like there is nothing wrong with the "Guild/friend loot ninja system" as long as everyone is aware at the begining.

It's great you all have your own loot policy, then you don't have to worry about things that go crazy.

I just have a different view on what is "Fair"

I guess its not actually what goes on at the chest that defines fair.... but It's how we perceive/interpret it. Everyone is different

Well, it really is that one method promotes puggles coming to your raid. Equal chance of the loot if its not needed by the person it drops for.

The other one promotes puggles not coming to your raid. If you don't need it, pass to a guildy first, and only if all of them do not need it, pass to the puggle.

Which one sounds more fair?

[Ryan1616]

I agree with this idea and offer will state once a party is filling Roll for unwanted loot... Sell it in my party and you arent welcome back. If you dont like it leave now so you maybe replaced by someone who has more need then greed. Not everyone likes it, but enough people agree that still no issues filling a party.

[Mithran]

Well, it really is that one method promotes puggles coming to your raid. Equal chance of the loot if its not needed by the person it drops for.

The other one promotes puggles not coming to your raid. If you don't need it, pass to a guildy first, and only if all of them do not need it, pass to the puggle.

Which one sounds more fair?

It also has to do with how your guild is perceived by people outside your guild. Many guilds (the ones I most often run with) followed this (hitherto unwritten) policy, already. The next questions are:

1. Which other guilds might sign onto this policy?
2. Which guilds will not sign onto this policy?

[Sweyn]

Well, it really is that one method promotes puggles coming to your raid. Equal chance of the loot if its not needed by the person it drops for.

The other one promotes puggles not coming to your raid. If you don't need it, pass to a guildy first, and only if all of them do not need it, pass to the puggle.

Which one sounds more fair?

Which one sounds more fair? Well, its the one whoever the person in question thinks, that's it.. there is no right or wrong definition to "Fair." Fair is what people think of the issue, and everyone thinks differently.

Second, i don't think most of the big raiding guilds really care about promoting "puggles" to their raids. Many of them can fill a raid with the whole guild, and many also have friends that aren't in the guild. I have not seen.. not once.. a guild not being able to fill their party due to their loot rules

[Mithran]

Which one sounds more fair? Well, its the one whoever the person in question thinks, that's it.. there is no right or wrong definition to "Fair." Fair is what people think of the issue, and everyone thinks differently.

Second, i don't think most of the big raiding guilds really care about promoting "puggles" to their raids. Many of them can fill a raid with the whole guild, and many also have friends that aren't in the guild. I have not seen.. not once.. a guild not being able to fill their party due to their loot rules

This is clearly a hot-button issue for you, Sweyn, so I've tried to see things from your side, but I've never before known you guys to behave in a manner other than as I've outlined.

"Fair" is certainly a term that is open to interpretation. The childish approach is: What's fair is what I feel like. I've used the outlined raid loot approach in Abbot runs where you guys hadn't filled and I thought Ransack was already holding itself to this standard.

I'd hoped that this would create a debate (as it certainly has) about what's fair and you've entered the fray with gusto, but I'm seeing a marked disparity between what you oppose here and what you practice for the puggers in your raids. What am I missing about your motives or are you just playing Devil's Advocate?

[Visty]

if something has my name under it and i dont need it, ill give it to my guildy who needs it without a roll

if you want to run your raids otherwise, state that befor you start as the above is the common accepted rule

[woodrick]

it's easy to see both sides.

passing to a guildy simply, u run with guildies more than pugs generally. so therefore the better equiped your guildies are the faster/easier you will complete stuff/farm better items.

the need before greed i understand as well, everyone helped out so everyone should have the same chance at loot even if it is 10guildies/2pugs or whatever.

now i have been in full pug raids where a player hasn't contributed and their roll has been overlooked is this fair? i thought it was.

again tho for some items what people are willing to trade for them is interesting. in an all guild raid/near all guild raid this shouldn't b an issue. if it is are they really the best guildies to have?

like most people i would have to admit i have once or twice recieved offers for raid items that are virtually impossible to say no to or someone pulls an item i want and i pull something they want and we swap. and if i pull a raid item and a guildy or good friend is in the raid i will offer it to them first before opening it up to a roll. now most items everyone already has or doesn't want so more than likely things go up for roll. but on the odd occasion they don't helping someone i run with all the time benefits me (it was my loot, i could have taken it myself) more than helping someone i may never run with again.

as sweyn said as long as people are told in advance that is the case with loot in your raids giving them time to decide whether they leave or run it shouldn't be an issue

[taurean430]

I like the need before greed concept regarding raid loot you don't need that you pull. Before I went TR again, I'd run a number of Hound/VOD/Shroud runs where people would pass to whomever they pleased. And this is fine really... but some of those same people would send me tells looking for a healer for their raid. And I rolled for things and won in some cases only to watch it passed to someone else. I didn't see that it would pay off in any way running with those people, so I'd politely decline. In some cases, I'd rather wait a couple of days just to see people with an lfm up that were at least fair about things like this.

[Lo_Pan]

Please define, and if need be, qualify the term need before greed.

Thank you.

[Quanefel]

What defines a "guild raid" is it a set definition or ambigious?

[sephiroth1084]

Yeah, the whole TRing thing has put an unpleasant spin on looting practices.

I decided that I'm not going to roll on anything I want for a reincarnation of a character unless no one else has any desire for it. It's just ridiculous that some people are taking items they're going to use in 2 lives or whatever.

[vVAnjilaVv]

Yeah, the whole TRing thing has put an unpleasant spin on looting practices.

I decided that I'm not going to roll on anything I want for a reincarnation of a character unless no one else has any desire for it. It's just ridiculous that some people are taking items they're going to use in 2 lives or whatever.

Some people are probably specifically planning out builds that will ultimately be a class other than the one they are currently in the raid with. Seeing as how hard raid loot is to get, you can't really hold it against them for taking it.

[Raegoul]

/dramafail

[Strakeln]

I would be ****ed.

Then you need to stop considering other people's loot as your own.

The single paradigm that has survived the test of time: it's your loot, do with it as you see fit.

And guess what? That's where your policy will eventually go as well. People are not keen on not being able to give their loot to their best friend in the world. We've been through this dozens of times: you can tell your own members how to distribute loot, but the second you start telling a pugger what they can and can't do with their loot, you've failed.

So if you guys are planning on sticking with this, you'd better make sure your numbers stay high, as you will quickly have the good players of the server avoid HotBT-dominated raids.

Mithran, I'm really surprised you're going for this "destined to fail" approach. I could have sworn that you'd learned the ins and outs of trying **** like this before.

[MeliCat]

I sort of like this rule but in some instances I think my actions would get me kicked from your guild for doing what I thought was right.

So yes, it irritates me when I get good loot and all sorts of offers are given to me to pass over the loot to a particular person - it's not fair because long time players have more stuff that they can trade with. It lessons my opinions of those long time players who try to do that actually. I would like to be fair and so I will put things up for roll. I will ignore all offers of trade.

*However* here's a case where you would probably boot me from your guild. Say someone in the raid got a choker or whatever. Say I won the roll 'cos I wanted it for my character. However my buddy who is also in the raid but I've known for ages and I know that they are *way* more desperate than I am - I would then give it to him.

And that would get me booted.

But frankly I think that my actions in that instance would be correct because I happen to know my buddy's need more than you do. And I am acting on princples of need before greed.

So yeah. Boot me. idc.

[atkbeast]

The policy that the Hand has started is very similar to what was done in a past guild that I shared with Mithran and several of the current Hand members. The policy was much more of a standard then because of the warding stones associated with the chests. There were occasions where the policy came under fire, but it was the fairest way to get the loot.

In regards as what is a guild raid, I think if the party leader's guild make up to about half or more of the party, it is a guild raid.

To define need before greed, I would use the Helm of the Mroranon as an example. Any toon would get benefit from it, but monks and clerics would get the most benefit being wisdom based classes.

I did come across an instance that could be a grey area for the policy and I'm curious how Mithran would think it should be handled. I ran a Reaver and the Dreamspitter fell. One of the party members had the old version, without the upgrade slot. Would his rolling on it be considered need or greed?