It's official. . .

[Mithran]

With the implementation of TR's by Turbine, the hunger for raid loot has grown considerably over the last six months or so and we've witnessed some raid loot practices that we find to have been unfair in our guild runs. In an attempt to address this issue before it becomes even more divisive, we've decided to let everyone bear witness to our new raid loot policy, which we will be implementing as a condition of membership in The Hand of the Black Tower. Furthermore, members will follow our loot policy while in raids with members of other guilds.

For every member of The Hand of the Black Tower, the rule is Need Before Greed at raid chests. Between these two terms there is a lot of grey area and we recognize that. Having made this allowance though, we want to be fair to everyone, including ourselves.

If you are a member of another guild and are in a Hand raid, you have the same chances at raid loot as everyone else in the raid: Type /roll d100. We will not buy or sell raid loot. If we do not intend to use it, it will be put up for roll. With the Need Before Greed filter, everyone else in the raid will have an equal chance at the loot.

We'll do the best we can on a case-by-case basis on questionable drops, but ninja-looting will not be tolerated. If you are a guest member of one of our raids, while you'll have the same chances at raid loot as any member of the guild, you will also be expected to honor this sense of fair play. You can only roll for yourself as every other member of the raid will. If you are found to have been rolling for your buddy who is also a guest, you will not receive another invitation to raid with The Hand of the Black Tower.

If you are a member of The Hand of the Black Tower and have been found to have violated this policy, you will in the first instance receive a warning. In the second instance, you will no longer be a member.

[Samadhi]

How is "ninja looting" defined on your server?

[Mithran]

How is "ninja looting" defined on your server?

Ninja looting means that you pass an item without either consultation or rolls.

[Samadhi]

Ya thats actually the standard for most of us in GLand. If i know a guildie needs something specific i will usually ninja. if not just a regular roll. Selling loot etc is actually very uncommon over here OTOH - with me having witness multiple folks offered stuff and still they put it up for roll anyhow.

[Docta_PoPo]

Sadly this is true my large bribes simply dont work on this server... I have a dream that one day my 6 scales will get me an encrusted ring

[Mithran]

If I know a guildie needs something specific i will usually ninja.

You'd be welcome to do this in one of our guild runs (once).

[Sweyn]

Ninja looting means that you pass an item without either consultation or rolls.

So wait.. you're telling me that if i loot something, and pass it over to a friend... that is frowned apon?!?

This isn't loot i rolled for and won, this is loot that dropped for me, you're pretty much forcing people to do certain things with loot that they might not want to.

I understand it is your raid.. your rules, but if you are gonna be like this, make sure you make it VERY clear, so people have time to leave before the raid starts

[Durion]

So wait.. you're telling me that if i loot something, and pass it over to a friend... that is frowned apon?!?

This isn't loot i rolled for and won, this is loot that dropped for me, you're pretty much forcing people to do certain things with loot that they might not want to.

I understand it is your raid.. your rules, but if you are gonna be like this, make sure you make it VERY clear, so people have time to leave before the raid starts

How could he be any more clear?

Many guilds have policies on loot. Some don't offer "Puggers" any chance at loot. Does that seem fair?? He's offering EVERYONE a FAIR shot at loot.

But anyhow, if you were to raid with us, 11 of us to your 1, it'd be fair for us to skip over you with loot because our "friends" are with us, even though you played your part in getting us that completion? Why should someone be "excluded" from a chance to get raid loot because they "pug" into another guilds run?

We offer you a chance and you cry. Good call.

[Sweyn]

How could he be any more clear?

Many guilds have policies on loot. Some don't offer "Puggers" any chance at loot. Does that seem fair?? He's offering EVERYONE a FAIR shot at loot. Leave if you will, or let us know who you are and we'll do you the favor.

Where in my post did i say he was unclear?? I simply said for him to be sure he makes it clear at the begining at each raid... so people will have time to leave

[Durion]

Where in my post did i say he was unclear?? I simply said for him to be sure he makes it clear at the begining at each raid... so people will have time to leave

I've run quite a few raids with you, and don't have any bad recollection of any of them so therefore I'm going to assume you aren't one of the ones to say "Thanks for helping, but the loot goes to my buddies. The resources you spent to get us here mean nothing."

But anyhow, thats the point of his thead I do believe.

Original Post: Guild Raid policy, to cover members and guests. Should be pretty clear at that.

[Sweyn]

How could he be any more clear?

Many guilds have policies on loot. Some don't offer "Puggers" any chance at loot. Does that seem fair?? He's offering EVERYONE a FAIR shot at loot.

And actually yes, that is fair. Just like your guild has rules, others have rules aswell. The way i see it is one of the major resons to be in a guild is to help eachother get better. I know for a fact that if i get loot, and i don't need, i will offer it up in guild chat before opening up to a pug.

And many times, i have been excluded from loot that same way. I ran a Dragon with ER and the SoS dropped, they passed it to a guildie without giving anyone a chance to roll.. Was i mad?? Hell no, i knew that going into that run that i would probably not get a chance at some loot.

People should realize that they are in guild runs, and might miss out on loot. If they don't, well it will be a learning experience

[vVAnjilaVv]

I was going to post in response to this, but trying to have respect for Mithran...it should be noted that I think this was intended to be a general message for people who read the Khyber forums....not a debate .

[Durion]

And actually yes, that is fair. Just like your guild has rules, others have rules aswell. The way i see it is one of the major resons to be in a guild is to help eachother get better. I know for a fact that if i get loot, and i don't need, i will offer it up in guild chat before opening up to a pug.

And many times, i have been excluded from loot that same way. I ran a Dragon with and the SoS dropped, they passed it to a guildie without giving anyone a chance to roll.. Was i mad?? Hell no, i knew that going into that run that i would probably not get a chance at some loot.

People should realize that they are in guild runs, and might miss out on loot. If they don't, well it will be a learning experience

I would be ****ed.

We don't exclude on runs. I get a SOS, its going up for roll. Don't need it, have one. Hope a guildy gets it, but they have no advantage over the rest of the party.

I have passed loot that a guildy needed before. Did I hope he won, yes. We like to promote pugging, unlike some guilds you may want to remove from your post. I don't pug with them, why would I knowing that all I'm getting out of it is a chance to help THAT guild get what THEY want with no chance of getting anything in return?

So we're offering everyone a fair chance. If people don't like it, run with that other guild. I'm sure they'd like to get more good loot for themselves.

[Mithran]

I was going to post in response to this, but trying to have respect for Mithran...it should be noted that I think this was intended to be a general message for people who read the Khyber forums....not a debate .

I'm delighted to have a thorough thrashing out of this issue. I expect that Sweyn will eventually come around to seeing our perspective on this, or at least its fairness.

Edit: We're not looking to drag the policies of other guilds into this. I'm hoping that we can discuss this on its merits without going into what other guilds' policies were before now. My honest hope is that members of other guilds will see the reasoning behind this and may even change their policies to match ours. I love running with the aforementioned guild these days and my inference is that I'm one of the people they can look to for assistance when they'd like another able team player.

[Durion]

I was going to post in response to this, but trying to have respect for Mithran...it should be noted that I think this was intended to be a general message for people who read the Khyber forums....not a debate .

It's not a debate, nor is it coming from outside our server.

It's a guild policy, set as such. No debate involved. Guild run = policy in play. Thats it.

[Durion]

I'm delighted to have a thorough thrashing out of this issue. I expect that Sweyn will eventually come around to seeing our perspective on this, or at least its fairness.

He will. Anyone that runs with us being that single pugger will agree to its fairness. Anyone that joins with a "buddy" and something they want drops to that "buddy," will cry that its unfair.

He's run with us before, and I've never seen him, nor heard of him, playing underhanded. I could be wrong, but not in my recollection.

[vVAnjilaVv]

It's not a debate, nor is it coming from outside our server.

It's a guild policy, set as such. No debate involved. Guild run = policy in play. Thats it.

I edited that last little bit of my reply almost immediately after I noticed all the posters were from Khyber.....stop reading so fast!!!!

[Durion]

I edited that last little bit of my reply almost immediately after I noticed all the posters were from Khyber.....stop reading so fast!!!!

My bad, alittle something for you for responding in haste.

[Mithran]

Just to clarify. . .

You can keep the loot if you want. The issue is over how loot is passed. If you're not keeping it, put it up for a Need Before Greed roll.

[Sweyn]

I may have came off a little short tempered.. IMO, there is nothing wrong with your system, as long as everyone is aware at the begining, just like there is nothing wrong with the "Guild/friend loot ninja system" as long as everyone is aware at the begining.

It's great you all have your own loot policy, then you don't have to worry about things that go crazy.

I just have a different view on what is "Fair"

I guess its not actually what goes on at the chest that defines fair.... but It's how we perceive/interpret it. Everyone is different