The elf's elf

[tomfar72]

Ok, i was toying around with an idea for a build and wanted to get some thoughts. I want to make a clasic style fighter/wiz elf. This going to be a more solo based character as I doubt he will be good enough at anything to be wanted endgame. I know the concensus is something around 18 wiz/2 fighter or ranger, but I'm wanting it to be a bit more balanced between fighting and casting. I can't decide which way to go though. My original plan was 6fighter/14 wiz. This would allow me to get Kensai I, Elven Arcane Archer, and still have 14 caster lvls. My second thought was 12 fighter/8 wiz which would allow the addition of Kensai II. The problem is, I don't know whether Kensai II is worth losing 6 lvls of Wiz. The real plan for my wiz spells is going to be for buffs mostly and of course Fire Wall. I was thinking kiting mobs through a maximized/and or empowered Fire Wall while pouring in extra damage from my bow would be a very effective soloing technique. I had also considered adding 2 lvls of ranger for free twf, bow str, and rapid shot and going something like 6fighter/2ranger/12 wiz. In addition to the free feats and a favored enemy, the ranger lvls would open up Hide and Move Silently which would also go nicely with the flavor of the build and allow access to cure wands and such. For stats I'm thinking 16 str dex and int,and 12 con. I am currently leaning towards 6fighter/2ranger/12 wiz, but would like any suggestions you may have. Thanx in advance

[maha0201]

You can try 2 mnk/18 wiz - if you want to be spell oriented, if you go wizard till you get wall of fire (min 7 lvl wizard) you wont be doing much damage later, so if you its better to stay more fighter than 7 wiz multiclass. You can try popular 16 sorce/2 paly /2 mnk(rog) if you wanna do more dmg mele...

[tomfar72]

You can try 2 mnk/18 wiz - if you want to be spell oriented, if you go wizard till you get wall of fire (min 7 lvl wizard) you wont be doing much damage later, so if you its better to stay more fighter than 7 wiz multiclass. You can try popular 16 sorce/2 paly /2 mnk(rog) if you wanna do more dmg mele...

Thanx for the response, but perhaps I should have been more specific. I do not really want 16-17 lvls of wiz or sorc for that matter. He is not intended to be a high lvl caster, or a high lvl melee focused character. First and foremost he is going to be an archer.(elven Arcane Archer line and Kensai I ranged.) He is going to be able to mix it up in melee with twf if he has to. He's going to be able to cast though high lvl spells isn't what I'm going for, though like I said, kiting mobs through firewalls while unleashing hell with my bow sounds pretty sweet. I'm trying to model him after the old D&D Elf Class. Monk, while great for evasion, really isn't going to offer anything in the way of increasing his archery or casting, like I said, melee will be a fill in for him, not the focus.(plus he will have low wisdom and will never be centered.)

After messing arround with a build calculator, I think I'm fairly set on 2ranger/6fighter/12Wiz. It seems to allow me to get all my archery goodies for the PREs,(kensai I and elven arcane archer) decent stealth with hide and move silently as ranger class skills, and enough spells for great buffs and fairly effective maximized Firewalls.

The reasons I want to try a build like this are two fold. First, I want to make something as close as possible to the original elf class in old D&D. (little bit of sneaking, a little bit of melee, a little bit of arcane, and great archery. Secondly, someone posted a build a cpl weeks ago for an elf pure FvS arcane archer/caster that would focus on kiting mobs through BB while adding extra damage from the AA line. This is an attempt at doing something similar with arcane, though a little more specialized in archery.

Oh and like I said, this is really a solo focused build. In a group the most that he could offer would be Wiz buffs, back up healing through wands, and some damage through his archery, though I will take some repair spells also to help keep any WF up.

[maha0201]

Thanx for the response, but perhaps I should have been more specific. I do not really want 16-17 lvls of wiz or sorc for that matter. He is not intended to be a high lvl caster, or a high lvl melee focused character. First and foremost he is going to be an archer.(elven Arcane Archer line and Kensai I ranged.) He is going to be able to mix it up in melee with twf if he has to. He's going to be able to cast though high lvl spells isn't what I'm going for, though like I said, kiting mobs through firewalls while unleashing hell with my bow sounds pretty sweet. I'm trying to model him after the old D&D Elf Class. Monk, while great for evasion, really isn't going to offer anything in the way of increasing his archery or casting, like I said, melee will be a fill in for him, not the focus.(plus he will have low wisdom and will never be centered.)

After messing arround with a build calculator, I think I'm fairly set on 2ranger/6fighter/12Wiz. It seems to allow me to get all my archery goodies for the PREs,(kensai I and elven arcane archer) decent stealth with hide and move silently as ranger class skills, and enough spells for great buffs and fairly effective maximized Firewalls.

The reasons I want to try a build like this are two fold. First, I want to make something as close as possible to the original elf class in old D&D. (little bit of sneaking, a little bit of melee, a little bit of arcane, and great archery. Secondly, someone posted a build a cpl weeks ago for an elf pure FvS arcane archer/caster that would focus on kiting mobs through BB while adding extra damage from the AA line. This is an attempt at doing something similar with arcane, though a little more specialized in archery.

Oh and like I said, this is really a solo focused build. In a group the most that he could offer would be Wiz buffs, back up healing through wands, and some damage through his archery, though I will take some repair spells also to help keep any WF up.

Think you cant take kensai and arcane archer. But if you wanna get only wall of fire from wiz spells you dont need to take 12 lvls of wiz 8-10 is ok (10 to get 3 meta feats if u wanna), 2 rngr is good since you wont get feat from odd number of fighter lvls. I would start as ranger. Build seames fun

[Symar-FangofLloth]

What about Bard instead of Wizard?

[Noctus]

What about Bard instead of Wizard?

Seconded.

Bard will support your build idea much, much, muuuuuch better than Wizard.

[tomfar72]

Think you cant take kensai and arcane archer.

I was told you can as Elven Arcane Archer is counted as a ranger PRE, even if you get it not being a ranger. You can get 2 PREs from diff classes though so Kensai works as it is a fighter PRE. It is theoreticly possible to have 4 PRE on one character. You could go Elf fighter/rogue/wiz and get Elven archer, Kensai, Assasin, and Pale Master assuming you could get all the feats and get the APs to work out.

[tomfar72]

Seconded.

Bard will support your build idea much, much, muuuuuch better than Wizard.

Yeah, I thought about bard for this. I have a bard that is one of my fav characters, but it's not quite the feel I'm looking for.Though their CC is excellent, they seem to be lacking in the offensive oomph department. I know the bard version would be better for grouping purposes (I mean who doesn't like bard songs) but this is going to basicly be a soloing/flavor type character. I've pretty well settled on the 2/ranger/6fighter/12 wiz version. Starting with 2 ranger, then fighter till kensai then going wiz the rest of the way. The first Wiz lvl will unlock Eleven Arcanum which will unlock Eleven Arcane Archer at lvl 9. (I could wait and take the second lvl of ranger until after my first wiz lvl which would allow me to get Arcane Archer at lvl 8, but I figure the free TWF feat for ranger2 would come in handy for lvling purposes.) Thanx for the responses guys.

[Symar-FangofLloth]

Well, you're not going to have much 'oomph' with your spells anyway, expect maybe Firewall.
So if you're after self buffs, you might as well go bard. More self-buffs, and some more self-healing. As well as a higher HD, and higher BAB (for when you aren't under the effects of Tensers/Divine Power).


And yes, you can take AA without being a ranger, as long as you're an elf. You get each tier 2 levels later though.

[tomfar72]

Well, you're not going to have much 'oomph' with your spells anyway, expect maybe Firewall.
So if you're after self buffs, you might as well go bard. More self-buffs, and some more self-healing. As well as a higher HD, and higher BAB (for when you aren't under the effects of Tensers/Divine Power).


And yes, you can take AA without being a ranger, as long as you're an elf. You get each tier 2 levels later though.

Yeah, I realize that I'm not gonna have alot of oomph with my spells except for firewall. I think I actually said in my OP that the thought behind this build would be a solo build using archery to add damage while kiting mobs through my firewalls. I have a bard, he's actually my favorite character to play right now, though he cannot really do what I want this build to do. I actually first tried this build as a bard version first, but didn't like it. The self healing was nice, but other than that the bard just didn't seem to add what I wanted for this build. Now if they added Firewall and BB scrolls back into the game, that would be a diff thing alltogether..lol

I started my 2ranger/6fighter/12wiz last night. The original plan was to take the ranger lvls, then 6 fighter to get AA and kensai asap, but once I started him, I realized this would put off getting firewall until lvl 15, which is not something I want to wait that long to do. So, I went 2 ranger, 1 fighter giving me all the feats I need for AA at lvl 8 then am going wiz until i get firewall at lvl 10. After 10 I'll take 5 more lvls of fighter to get Kensai then finish off the rest as wiz. The build is going to take patience until I get Firewall, but I guess all arcanes have that issue. I know on the arcanes I've rolled, I end up meleeing alot while lvling, and this build does have the advantage of twf with scimitars and higher BAB with the ranger/fighter lvls, so meleeing until FW will be alot easier.

As I've said, I know this is not a min/max build by anymeans. I'm just trying to make him as balanced as possible between fighting(more archery than melee) and casting. As an archer, he will be behind a pure Ranger AA due to lack of the ranger capstone, but with Kensai and using spells he might be able to close the gap and possibly surpass it in some situations. If nothing else, it seems like it is going to be fun

[DragonDrago77]

The problem with these builds is that they are very easy to mess up. You would need minimum level 7 Wizard to even be able to use Firewall. In my opinion, you should focus on two skills like Archery and Casting or Casting and Melee. I would suggest going Melee/Caster because you are going to get a lot of aggro with your Firewalls. You need AC for all that aggro or just jump around.
Bard/Melee seems to be the best way to go. You could cast spells such as Displacement and have good self-buffs. Songs are always nice to have, and you could invest some of your skill points into UMD and have good self-healing.

[tomfar72]

The problem with these builds is that they are very easy to mess up. You would need minimum level 7 Wizard to even be able to use Firewall. In my opinion, you should focus on two skills like Archery and Casting or Casting and Melee. I would suggest going Melee/Caster because you are going to get a lot of aggro with your Firewalls. You need AC for all that aggro or just jump around.
Bard/Melee seems to be the best way to go. You could cast spells such as Displacement and have good self-buffs. Songs are always nice to have, and you could invest some of your skill points into UMD and have good self-healing.

Ok, I know I need to focus on 2 things at the most. I choose Archery and casting. Melee will not be a focus at all.(I get TWf for free from Ranger2 which is nice, but won't be putting anything more into melee.) Kensai I will be for ranged, perhaps I should have been more specific about that. Yup the plan is to jump around, pulling mobs back and forth through my firewalls using my archery to pump up damage via AA and probably using a paralizer bow also. Pretty much will be using the standard Wiz tactic with Firewall with archery just adding a bit more damage. I know you don't get Firewall until wiz7, which I won't get until character lvl 10, but that's ok..lvl 10ish is when I would be looking for it anyway. In the first part of your post you seem to grasp what I'm trying to do, though I am focusing on archery more than melee to compliment my firewalls, with firewalls being the linchpin of the build.

Then you bring in the bard thing as a better option, and completely lose me. If the purpose/playstyle of the build revolves arround using Firewalls augmented by archery to deal with most mobs, how can getting rid of my Wizard lvls(along with Firewall) and picking up bard be better at it? I understand that bard would synergize better from a pure archery standpoint than wiz due to songs increasing hit and damage, but unless they add Firewall scrolls back into the game, bards don't have access to it, which changes the key point of the build. Granted, you could go heavy bard with a cpl fighter lvls for feats so you could get Elven AA and a Bard PRE. AA/Warchanter would offer more damage from archery due to songs, but the prerequisite feats needed for warchanter are melee based, which definately isn't the focus of this build, and their casting generally the weakest of the bard PREs. AA/Spellsinger would offer little in the way of upping damage output, but would offer greater CC ability. Sure, you could cc a group of mobs and pick them apart with your bow, which sounds cool, but is not really what my build is about.

I appreciate the advice, but I've already started my 2 ranger/6fighter/12wiz. He's lvl 5 now, halfway to 6. I honestly won't know how well it works until lvl 10 when he gets firewall. I will post the build via a build calculator if it works out. If not, I'll probaly try the bard version. Either way, I'll post how it goes. I'm not afraid of having a build fail. Afterall, that's why Turbine made a delete button.

[Ultrazen]

I'm going to post in this thread, just to make a prediction. And it's not a prediction based on any kind of malice or hate, it's based on me trying to do a ton of these kinds of builds and the problems I ran into. Here is my guess for what's wrong post level 10.

1. Your BaB and to hit sucks, you can't hit anything, and when you do hit anything, it's not for that many attacks per round.

2. Your DCs suck, you can't CC anything, and a good chunk of your spell list is worthless.

DDO is a much more harsh game than is evident in the character planner, or in the lower/mid levels. It's a game that punishes builds for being even 1 or 2 points off in a DC or a too hit. In light of the nature of the game, it's very difficult to make multis that spread a lot of stuff around.

I'm the biggest champion of multi builds, and trying to find that golden build that combines odd classes/mixes. As someone who has learned from running these kinds of builds through content numerous times, the game is harsh. I can't even tell you how many build ideas I've had that have been awesome up till about level 10, and then everything went out the window.

Once you past the breakpoint of 17 in a caster, you are really left with one choice, especially on an arcane caster. do you want to cast a firewall and stand in it and melee? Ok, that's 7 levels of wiz, and the rest melee. Those can be fun builds for solo, and I've leveled quite a few of them in various incantations. The problems that your run into, is that DDO is a game that favors focus in one particular area, and only gets worse in that regard as you level.

Once again, I'm not trying to be negative, as I'm a real champion of thinking outside the box with builds. It's just my experience with the game that has slapped me with the realities of what all those dice rolls really mean to your characters effectiveness in the actual game.

[unbongwah]

Secondly, someone posted a build a cpl weeks ago for an elf pure FvS arcane archer/caster that would focus on kiting mobs through BB while adding extra damage from the AA line. This is an attempt at doing something similar with arcane, though a little more specialized in archery.

A pure FvS AA is still primarily a caster; its archery DPS is subpar at best, but that's just gravy atop its spellcasting. It also has slightly higher BAB & HPs than your build. What you're proposing is a sub-par offensive caster with so-so archery; even as a solo kiting build, I'd be worried you wouldn't put out enough DPS to be viable.

[tomfar72]

I'm going to post in this thread, just to make a prediction. And it's not a prediction based on any kind of malice or hate, it's based on me trying to do a ton of these kinds of builds and the problems I ran into. Here is my guess for what's wrong post level 10.

1. Your BaB and to hit sucks, you can't hit anything, and when you do hit anything, it's not for that many attacks per round.

2. Your DCs suck, you can't CC anything, and a good chunk of your spell list is worthless.

DDO is a much more harsh game than is evident in the character planner, or in the lower/mid levels. It's a game that punishes builds for being even 1 or 2 points off in a DC or a too hit. In light of the nature of the game, it's very difficult to make multis that spread a lot of stuff around.

I'm the biggest champion of multi builds, and trying to find that golden build that combines odd classes/mixes. As someone who has learned from running these kinds of builds through content numerous times, the game is harsh. I can't even tell you how many build ideas I've had that have been awesome up till about level 10, and then everything went out the window.

Once you past the breakpoint of 17 in a caster, you are really left with one choice, especially on an arcane caster. do you want to cast a firewall and stand in it and melee? Ok, that's 7 levels of wiz, and the rest melee. Those can be fun builds for solo, and I've leveled quite a few of them in various incantations. The problems that your run into, is that DDO is a game that favors focus in one particular area, and only gets worse in that regard as you level.

Once again, I'm not trying to be negative, as I'm a real champion of thinking outside the box with builds. It's just my experience with the game that has slapped me with the realities of what all those dice rolls really mean to your characters effectiveness in the actual game.

Hey thanx for the response. Yeah, I kinda knew from the get go that this was not going to be any easy build to pull off. I actually played around with 3 diff class combos before I settled on my current 2ranger/6fighter/12 wiz that I started.(he's currentloy 2ranger/1fighter/3Wiz atm..2 lvls from Elven AA and 4 lvls from Firewall.) I'm honestly not sure which direction to take once I get firewall at 10. I can stick with my current plan and take the other 5 fighter lvls for Kensai I which would give me enough feats for all the cool archery feats and finish as a Wiz for more spells, I can forget Kensai and take Wiz to 17 greatly increasing my casting at the cost of some archery skills, or I can just go the rest fighter which would give me better HP and even more feats to increase my melee as well as my archery. That is a decision I'll have to make when I'm ready to hit lvl11, until then I'll have to think on it.

in response to the 2 points you made:
1. Yeah, I know my BaB will suck, but I'm counting on Divine Power clickies to help with that. As a rule I HATE clickies, but realized that DP would be required to hit anything with this build at higher lvl.

2. Yup, I realize my DC's will suck, which is why his focus was Firewall and buffs. 12 wiz would also give me access to some other useful spells such as Reconstruct and Tenser's.

You have given me alot to think about, especially after lvl 10 when I'll have Elven AA as well as Firewall. My original plan was for this to be a soloing build, but with DP clickies to help my BAB, I may well go 2ranger/1fighter/17Wiz. Lack of feats would hurt my archery a bit, but the extra Wiz lvls would make him more group friendly. Decisions decisions!!

One thing I am sure of is that I'm glad I took my ranger lvls first. Not only are free TWF, Bow Str, and rapid shot great, but I am loving having Hide and Move Silently as class feats. This is the first time I'm ever stealthed on a nonrogue character, and choosing when and where you fight definately goes with the concept of this build.

[Gnorbert]

I like the 2 ranger/ 6 fighter / 12 wiz choice. It sounds like a lot of fun to play. A paralyzing bow should definitely be your priority as soon as you can get one. This char obviously won't be the best at anything... but I think it will be a LOT of fun to play. If you're on Cannith I'll group with you any time.... as long as you cut back on the kiting a bit while we're grouped

[lutherl]

I was told you can as Elven Arcane Archer is counted as a ranger PRE, even if you get it not being a ranger. You can get 2 PREs from diff classes though so Kensai works as it is a fighter PRE. It is theoreticly possible to have 4 PRE on one character. You could go Elf fighter/rogue/wiz and get Elven archer, Kensai, Assasin, and Pale Master assuming you could get all the feats and get the APs to work out.

I can personally confirm being able to have both Kensai and AA at the same time.

While I understand your intended strategy, my concern would be this; I suspect you'll be soloing a lot. That's not a bad thing, but with your intent to cast and arch, you're probably going to end up pretty squishy. From my (admittedly limited) experience, that can be a problem solo.

[Gnorbert]

A caster/archer does not necessarily mean "squishy". With a decent Con, heavy fortification, displacement, haste, Stoneskin, Shield, Resists and other buffs, you can be quite sturdy... especially for his intended play style.

Top priority would be the best set of Striders you can find.

[tomfar72]

I like the 2 ranger/ 6 fighter / 12 wiz choice. It sounds like a lot of fun to play. A paralyzing bow should definitely be your priority as soon as you can get one. This char obviously won't be the best at anything... but I think it will be a LOT of fun to play. If you're on Cannith I'll group with you any time.... as long as you cut back on the kiting a bit while we're grouped

Thanx for the input. Yup, definately plan on getting a paralyzing bow (I'm already looking for one..I like to have gear to lvl into..lol) I'm on Argo, but thanx for the vote of confidence

[Kriogen]

Since very long time I have a rule "Capstone or Evasion" and if I want solo friendly build then I also want some self-healing that is better then potions. Would be wise to have some self-heal even for groups. Build like yours is not very "popular".

Try:
- Wizard12/Ranger6/Rogue2: Multishot from ranger, evasion and skills (like UMD for Heal scrolls) from rogue.
- Wizard15/Rogue3/Ranger2: like before but more Wiz, less Ranger.