Understanding PD.

[parvo]

and to think I pos repped you ............................ the point of pd I thouhgt was to make it more like pnp but if you dont have a gm ... well the quests run the same way everytime . so how can that be hard? on your 5th or 6th time through on new toons you kind of have it remembered right? as for you insult about where I live .. you win

I hope you realize it was good natured ribbing. I mean, you can't help it really. Until technology like the wheel and man made fire propogate into Fort Worth, you're kinda stuck there... hah!

I agree if there were more randomness it would be more fun but we take what we have. However, I assure you that having familiarity with a quest is no insurance that one can't die in it. Especially when the characters are balanced for the adventure vs. the "norm" of being outrageously overpowerd in "normal" play.

By the way, I live north of Plano in a town way more hick than Forth Worth. You ever go to Scarbourough Faire? Would be cool if some DDOers met out there...

[dominp]

are you talking about a lvl 3 quest on elite?

usually everything we run is on elite. Our rules state that quests can only be done on hard or elite...so if you are f2p then you must be grouped with someone who can open harder then normal. Also quests must be run on the highest difficulty possible, so if you have a group of 5 and even 1 person has done it on hard then the entire group is doing elite. So yes elite is almost always what we run.

[Creeper]

usually everything we run is on elite. Our rules state that quests can only be done on hard or elite...so if you are f2p then you must be grouped with someone who can open harder then normal. Also quests must be run on the highest difficulty possible, so if you have a group of 5 and even 1 person has done it on hard then the entire group is doing elite. So yes elite is almost always what we run.

Gotcha, good deal.

[phalaeo]

I'm actually liking this opportunity to hear Parvo's responses and be able to learn more about Perma-death.

It's not a playstyle that's for me, but it intrigues me and I respect those that have the willpower and drive to adhere to (what I consider) such strict rulesets.

Although I recognize that PvP is unbalanced in DDO and not a true representation of DDO's PvE environment, I think that brawl areas are a great place for PD'ers to test their gear and skills.

[parvo]

I'm actually liking this opportunity to hear Parvo's responses and be able to learn more about Perma-death.

It's not a playstyle that's for me, but it intrigues me and I respect those that have the willpower and drive to adhere to (what I consider) such strict rulesets.

Although I recognize that PvP is unbalanced in DDO and not a true representation of DDO's PvE environment, I think that brawl areas are a great place for PD'ers to test their gear and skills.

In fact, my intention was to test Tensor's Transformation. In all my time of DDO, I've never cast it. Then, I realized I had no Bulls Strength potions

[spifflove]

Not enough low level quests around to even consider PD a decent way to play the game. Can only run Waterworks so many times before its not fun, its not a challenge. Solo'd that **** on elite with 0 deaths at level 4.

And then you have the issue most PD now face, you miss out on the new higher level content like Amrath and the shroud.

You cannot compare your twinked out Monty Haul character with his endless access to wands and potions to pd play in MV. [Though I routinely solo ww elite with certain toons at 6 with few resources and easily obtainable gear]

Once a player is good enough to solo the WW they will spend most of their PD time working in higher and higher level quests. Its not exactly an inverse of End Game and feels alot less grindy. Yes there is a learning curve to reach this point.

[cdbd3rd]

Take off all your twinkies, throw away your tomes, lose the clothes and do it all nekkid on Elite ....

Ain't she just the cutest lil ol thing when she starts talkin all secksy like that?





Was gonna reply to the OP, but is sooo old now - plus couldn't think of a better comeback than dominp's second post. So I repped it and read on.

[Chai]

Does it count when an entire raid wipes but one of the people who died ended up dead in lava behind a pillar AFTER falling into said lava on their own accord?

/Tries to close pandoras box.

/cant do it

/runs straight legged as quickly as possible to get away with yakety sax blaring in the background.

[Chai]

You cannot compare your twinked out Monty Haul character with his endless access to wands and potions to pd play in MV. [Though I routinely solo ww elite with certain toons at 6 with few resources and easily obtainable gear]

Once a player is good enough to solo the WW they will spend most of their PD time working in higher and higher level quests. Its not exactly an inverse of End Game and feels alot less grindy. Yes there is a learning curve to reach this point.

I have met just as many non PD players who like to challenge themselves as PD players, on the same gear level and available loot level.

Like the guy who soloed ghosts of perdition naked on elite and didnt die. How about VOD solo - its been done. Crucible solo on elite at level 9 - done. (and yes there is a way to get in there at level 9), Sins of attrition on elite - been done, solo, used 4 mana pots - easily obtainable through leveling 1-20 as end rewards alone. Epic DQ - soloed, by an AA ranger.

When you guys are kicking down raid doors and plowing epics with your plus 4 longswords and 15 heal pots you collected by breaking boxes you can make this statement, not before.

The game was DESIGNED with the understanding that players have the above mentioned tools at the ready.

Playing levels 1-11 over and over again and having a few capped toons that have never set foot in a good portion of the content in the game because of limited resources is the sacrifice you make for limiting availability.

Trying to imply that people dont challenge themselves because of gear availablity, or cant compare their accomplishments to yours, is laughable.

This isnt even an apples to oranges comparison, its more like apples to school busses, not by design, but because you made it so.

[Mazeratti]

Ain't she just the cutest lil ol thing when she starts talkin all secksy like that?





Was gonna reply to the OP, but is sooo old now - plus couldn't think of a better comeback than dominp's second post. So I repped it and read on.

LOL you need to comeback and hang with us more if you like this kind of action we almost got a XXXtreme XXXplorers happening.... it was PPs idea

[Mazeratti]

I have met just as many non PD players who like to challenge themselves as PD players, on the same gear level and available loot level.

Like the guy who soloed ghosts of perdition naked on elite and didnt die. How about VOD solo - its been done. Crucible solo on elite at level 9 - done. (and yes there is a way to get in there at level 9), Sins of attrition on elite - been done, solo, used 4 mana pots - easily obtainable through leveling 1-20 as end rewards alone. Epic DQ - soloed, by an AA ranger.

When you guys are kicking down raid doors and plowing epics with your plus 4 longswords and 15 heal pots you collected by breaking boxes you can make this statement, not before.

The game was DESIGNED with the understanding that players have the above mentioned tools at the ready.

Playing levels 1-11 over and over again and having a few capped toons that have never set foot in a good portion of the content in the game because of limited resources is the sacrifice you make for limiting availability.

Trying to imply that people dont challenge themselves because of gear availablity, or cant compare their accomplishments to yours, is laughable.

This isnt even an apples to oranges comparison, its more like apples to school busses, not by design, but because you made it so.

True enough what you say - I would love to see some of our top end players come into PD and play it through though before they throw in the towel, because I believe they would be good at it and they would perhaps also find new life in the game that they think is boring.

Many say they dont want to grind the lowbie levels over and over, but it is my belief that our top end players wouldnt do that a gr8 deal becuz they wouldnt die as much.... but still they dont come instead they leave... and thats really sad Ive been watching ppl leave the game that are real quality players and an asset to the community with their skill and knowledge, even though I have not played with most of them as I didnt move in those circles I still respect their game prowess.

[Tabun]

/sigh this post started with a stong will but both parties were found too cocky and I could not pick a side I vote this thread dead

[Chai]

True enough what you say - I would love to see some of our top end players come into PD and play it through though before they throw in the towel, because I believe they would be good at it and they would perhaps also find new life in the game that they think is boring.

Many say they dont want to grind the lowbie levels over and over, but it is my belief that our top end players wouldnt do that a gr8 deal becuz they wouldnt die as much.... but still they dont come instead they leave... and thats really sad Ive been watching ppl leave the game that are real quality players and an asset to the community with their skill and knowledge, even though I have not played with most of them as I didnt move in those circles I still respect their game prowess.

Yeah if you want a true challenge, try killing the named shaman in Butchers Path on elite at level 3ish with no twink gear. Ive posted stuff like this in multiple threads where people moaned that the game was too easy during the mass froob migration of 2009.

There are some top end players that play PD on one server and have raid toons on another server. Some even have 2 accounts, usually 1 VIP and 1 F2P nowdays.

[parvo]

/sigh this post started with a stong will but both parties were found too cocky and I could not pick a side I vote this thread dead

There never was a side to pick Tabun. Shortly after Ole Kran ****ed me off, we were chatting amiably. It never was a big deal.

Besides, as I clearly explained earlier, it was a MT.

[parvo]

It's really for a different thread but Ole Kran brought up so I'll bite. The notion that PD is not a viable way to play because there isn't enough low level content... Of course, that's a flawed argument. In fact, the opposite is true. For active players, the long intervals between high level content release, makes "normal" play more repetitive and boring. Of course, this is a bit speculative by me. I don't know for certain how many legitimate high level quests you have now but I'm guessing you have four or five that are worth doing? Don't count the ones that are essentially grind-and-get. Without tricking up the rules, how many are actually challenging for a skilled high level group and offer a real benefit for doing?


The argument that one can find challenge in "normal" play by soloing some crazy hard dungeon is legitimate. But doesn't that just really prove the point? Of course, soloing some crazy hard dungeon is not "normal" play at all. You've done the same thing we have. You tricked up an otherwise boring run with a set of self imposed rules. The intention being to avoid the yawnfest of "normal" play.

[Duncani_Daho]

I have met just as many non PD players who like to challenge themselves as PD players, on the same gear level and available loot level.

Like the guy who soloed ghosts of perdition naked on elite and didnt die. How about VOD solo - its been done. Crucible solo on elite at level 9 - done. (and yes there is a way to get in there at level 9), Sins of attrition on elite - been done, solo, used 4 mana pots - easily obtainable through leveling 1-20 as end rewards alone. Epic DQ - soloed, by an AA ranger.

When you guys are kicking down raid doors and plowing epics with your plus 4 longswords and 15 heal pots you collected by breaking boxes you can make this statement, not before.

The game was DESIGNED with the understanding that players have the above mentioned tools at the ready.

Playing levels 1-11 over and over again and having a few capped toons that have never set foot in a good portion of the content in the game because of limited resources is the sacrifice you make for limiting availability.

Trying to imply that people dont challenge themselves because of gear availablity, or cant compare their accomplishments to yours, is laughable.

This isnt even an apples to oranges comparison, its more like apples to school busses, not by design, but because you made it so.

And what do you get for failing your Ghosts of Perdition elite run? Shucks, try again tomorrow? We get sent back to Korthos when we have an oops. My point: there is a real difference between people who risk essentially nothing for achievement (Devil's Assault elite solo), and those who put it all on the line (Devil's Assault, non-twink, max level 7 party on normal).

Game design includes feats (sap?) and class combo's that "normal" players would never try because it's not useful in that one part of that one level 20 raid. I have a level 20 non-pd elf ranger who has it all and seen all the content. I love seeing the high level content with him for a few days, then it's back to the real adventure: DDO permadeath style.

[Maxson]

I would've assumed a permadeath was any death you couldn't recover from without recalling. So shrining and raise dead spells are ok.

Maybe not Shrining, but raise dead is an available DnD spell so no reason why it mustn't apply to permadeath rules.

[KRaNiX1337]

With epic, the top level raids grow every release. Currently most 20s run

Elite Demon Queen
Elite Stormreavers Fate
Elite Titan
Epic VoN
Epic DQ
VoD
Hound
ToD
Abbot
Shroud

Those are just the raids, each has a whole heap of flagging quests, and the Epic content makes for some real challenging quests. Once a toon hits 20 and is flagged, you level up something new and run them through the raids once or twice a week. After 20 of each, and some epic farming, you TR and start again.

It's really for a different thread but Ole Kran brought up so I'll bite. The notion that PD is not a viable way to play because there isn't enough low level content... Of course, that's a flawed argument. In fact, the opposite is true. For active players, the long intervals between high level content release, makes "normal" play more repetitive and boring. Of course, this is a bit speculative by me. I don't know for certain how many legitimate high level quests you have now but I'm guessing you have four or five that are worth doing? Don't count the ones that are essentially grind-and-get. Without tricking up the rules, how many are actually challenging for a skilled high level group and offer a real benefit for doing?


The argument that one can find challenge in "normal" play by soloing some crazy hard dungeon is legitimate. But doesn't that just really prove the point? Of course, soloing some crazy hard dungeon is not "normal" play at all. You've done the same thing we have. You tricked up an otherwise boring run with a set of self imposed rules. The intention being to avoid the yawnfest of "normal" play.

[parvo]

With epic, the top level raids grow every release. Currently most 20s run

Elite Demon Queen
Elite Stormreavers Fate
Elite Titan
Epic VoN
Epic DQ
VoD
Hound
ToD
Abbot
Shroud

Those are just the raids, each has a whole heap of flagging quests, and the Epic content makes for some real challenging quests. Once a toon hits 20 and is flagged, you level up something new and run them through the raids once or twice a week. After 20 of each, and some epic farming, you TR and start again.

This is one of the reasons I don't play "normal". It's too predictable. There doesn't seem to be any adventure in it. I understand there is some in-game reward at the end of a 20th completion for some of these, but the quest itself has to be a total yawner. It seems like your doomed to an endless and inevitable grind for +1. The whole session is defined by what is pulled from a chest. If all I remember about an adventure is what I pulled from a chest, it's not been an adventure at all...

Yes, in PD it can be horrible to lose a beloved character. Really aweful sometimes. There have been few times when I lost a great character and didn't feel like playing for a week or two. But those lows are matched by incredible highs when the party overcomes a really difficult quest. It's worth it. It's an adventure with unknown ending. There's just nothing like when it counts. Even a quest where a character dies can be a fun attempt. When you survive something crazy, you feel like a hero. When you save another character from dying, you feel like a hero. The game feels like Dungeons and Dragons, not an MMO.

To each their own though. I get why many players don't like PD. I hope you get why I don't like "normal" play.


And Kran, someday, I'll have a character powerful enough to hunt you down with my +5 Bluesteel Goodaxe of Putzewhacker Bane with Cheese. Your goin' down PvPboy

[Orratti]

I don't even need to read more than a couple of the posts here to see that this is an attempt by the op to get a permadeath player to delete a character over their pvp victory. Please. After that is done do you plan on posting it in the accomplisments forum also? Pvp has nothing to do with DnD. It is outside of all the rules and sorry that includes permadeath. Have you deleted any of your defeated pvp characters? There isn't anything done in pvp that is worth bragging about and that includes defeating a permadeath player. Permadeath players however if they manage to survive to any high level have plenty to be proud of. Nice post man keep up the good work.