A noob's first build...

[Razcar]

The last attempt looks fine to me. I would take Toughness instead of Quick Draw though. Quick Draw is OK on a class that has a lot of clicky powers and lots of feats, like a kensei fighter. Rogues are both hit point and feat starved however. Edit: Yes, like unbogwah and Gnorbert says, drop Slicing Blow and Weapon Focus, I missed that you had put them in.

You could also go with a 12 starter Int if you want. The skill points will be enough, and the change of -1 DC fir Int skills could be temporally parried (if needed at all) by an enhancement point or two. Remember to take Skill Boost for UMD and hard-to-find traps. Buy some +5 Thieves Tools at the AH and use them on quests whose level is above yours (the left-most Thieves Tool set is the one that is used, so you can decide which one).

And welcome to DDO (and the DDO version of the rogue class)!

[unbongwah]

- You don't appear to have taken your rogue PrE. I would recommend Assassin III, though you may find Acrobat I & II more useful while leveling.
- Listen is a largely useless skill; I would drop it for Haggle or Diplomacy. I would also put some points into Jump, maybe split with Balance.
- If you're not going for a monk splash, I would dump-stat WIS & CHA and boost STR.
- Drop Quick Draw & Weapon Focus; take Toughness & Power Attack (STR 13 pre-req) instead. I would also drop Slicing Blow and take maybe SF UMD or Combat Expertise. I would also take Slippery Mind & Defensive Roll rather than Skill Mastery.

[Gnorbert]

The advice from Unbongwah is good but I will say that there's no reason you shouldn't take some less popular feats if you want to try them out.

Personally I wish I had quickdraw on more of my melee characters because I swap weapon sets a lot and use clicky abilities a lot. As a rogue you'll be hitting your Haste boost, maybe damage boost, uncanny dodge and swapping weapons a lot in order to bypass DR or just do more damage to a specific monster type you come across. Quickdraw will make that easier and more fluid. I say stick with it.

Weapon focus is a little bit wasted here because, as a weapon finesse build using a race with dex enhancements, your Dex will be quite high and your "to-hit" will also be high. The +1 from weapon focus is mostly wasted when you could have a lot of extra hit points instead through the toughness feat.

for slicing blow... I'll simply say that by the time you get to level 18 you will probably have a very different approach to the character.

Get out there an experiment with the different options... it's all about playing a game after all.

[OSBoy76]

The last attempt looks fine to me. I would take Toughness instead of Quick Draw though. Quick Draw is OK on a class that has a lot of clicky powers and lots of feats, like a kensei fighter. Rogues are both hit point and feat starved however.

You could also go with a 12 starter Int if you want. The skill points will be enough, and the change of -1 DC fir Int skills could be temporally parried (if needed at all) by an enhancement point or two. Remember to take Skill Boost for UMD and hard-to-find traps. Buy some +5 Thieves Tools at the AH and use them on quests whose level is above yours (the left-most Thieves Tool set is the one that is used, so you can decide which one).

And welcome to DDO (and the DDO version of the rogue class)!

The advice from Unbongwah is good but I will say that there's no reason you shouldn't take some less popular feats if you want to try them out.

Personally I wish I had quickdraw on more of my melee characters because I swap weapon sets a lot and use clicky abilities a lot. As a rogue you'll be hitting your Haste boost, maybe damage boost, uncanny dodge and swapping weapons a lot in order to bypass DR or just do more damage to a specific monster type you come across. Quickdraw will make that easier and more fluid. I say stick with it.

Weapon focus is a little bit wasted here because, as a weapon finesse build using a race with dex enhancements, your Dex will be quite high and your "to-hit" will also be high. The +1 from weapon focus is mostly wasted when you could have a lot of extra hit points instead through the toughness feat.

for slicing blow... I'll simply say that by the time you get to level 18 you will probably have a very different approach to the character.

Get out there an experiment with the different options... it's all about playing a game after all.

- You don't appear to have taken your rogue PrE. I would recommend Assassin III, though you may find Acrobat I & II more useful while leveling.
- Listen is a largely useless skill; I would drop it for Haggle or Diplomacy. I would also put some points into Jump, maybe split with Balance.
- If you're not going for a monk splash, I would dump-stat WIS & CHA and boost STR.
- Drop Quick Draw & Weapon Focus; take Toughness & Power Attack (STR 13 pre-req) instead. I would also drop Slicing Blow and take maybe SF UMD or Combat Expertise. I would also take Slippery Mind & Defensive Roll rather than Skill Mastery.

Thanks guys for this discussion. I was actually thinking about switching Toughness for Quick Draw. I think I'll do just that. Question, if I end up regretting it, does the game have a re-spec system in place for feats like it does for enhancements?

As for for lowering INT to 12, I will experiment with that, but I really do like the extra skill points to play around with.

Also, I am going to drop Weapon Focus and slicing blow. But should I keep Enhanced Crit Range: piercing?

Thanks for the welcome message and the encouragement to experiment and have fun. I have to admit I am more than a little paranoid about "making mistakes."

Unfortunately I am unfamiliar with the term "rogue PrE." I assume they are enhancements, but I have never come across them in the character builder. I am very interested in the idea of Acrobat. How do you get them to "show up" in the builder?

I am surprised to hear that Listen was considered a useless skill, does this mean that Move Silently is also less important, as they are opposed skills?

[Artos_Fabril]

Question, if I end up regretting it, does the game have a re-spec system in place for feats like it does for enhancements?

Yes, but it's much more expensive, and you can change only 1 feat every 3 days, whereas you can change all your enhancements every 3 days. There is an option to "Lesser Reincarnate" but it is exponentially more expensive than merely swapping feats.

As for for lowering INT to 12, I will experiment with that, but I really do like the extra skill points to play around with.

The extra skill points are nice, but extra damage will be more useful. There aren't many skills in DDO that are worth having at a moderate level (jump is one though)

Also, I am going to drop Weapon Focus and slicing blow. But should I keep Enhanced Crit Range: piercing?

Absolutely! Keen takes up a weapon prefix on each weapon, and the most generally useful rogue weapon (Supreme Tyrant Green Steel Rapier of Radiance) benefits significantly from an increased threat range.

Unfortunately I am unfamiliar with the term "rogue PrE." I assume they are enhancements, but I have never come across them in the character builder. I am very interested in the idea of Acrobat. How do you get them to "show up" in the builder?

PrE = Prestige Enhancement, they will show up automatically in the builder when you meet all the prereqs, but if you don't know those offhand or stumble upon them accidently, you can click the check box at the bottom that says "show unavailable" and it will show all the enhancements available to your race/class combo irrespective of prerequisites.

I am surprised to hear that Listen was considered a useless skill, does this mean that Move Silently is also less important, as they are opposed skills?

Very much so. The way monster AI and triggered events are scripted in DDO marginalizes stealth gameplay, couple that to the fact that it slows you down so the party are either tapping their feet waiting on you or running ahead without you, and stealth doesn't see much use. You can do some pretty amazing things with it though, if you get the best gear you can and improve your DDO player stealth skills. (Stealth is one area where player skill is even more important than character skill)

[daniel7]

Ranged rogues have a strange paradox. On one had you are ranged and therefor you want to start attacking your target from afar. Problem is you don't sneak attack with ranged attacks from a long distance...and then you have aggro and still don't sneak attack as the mob beats on you.

Pick your int score according to the number of skill points you want...not because of int modifier.

Don't max out any one stat...especially on a 28 point build.

Some players think that a rogues first duty is traps. I would say a rogues primary obligation is to produce good dps and to stay alive. All of this being said your ultimate goal is to have fun...which you won't have if you are always dead and not pulling your weight in the dps department.

Here is how I would rate rogue skills for most builds.
1. search - have to find traps
2. disable - have to disable traps
3. open lock - are expected to get locked doors and chest
4. umd - this makes you the jack of all trades
5. diplomacy - removes aggro
6. hide - rarely used but can sometimes be important - I had a rog with 0 rankes in hide/move silently and didn't regret it b/c of the play style of that rog
6. move silently
7. spot - good rogue skill, especially for new players and ranged players, but not necessary
8. jump - gets you out of trouble. don't have to max it out, especially on acrobat builds
8. balance - great stat unless you are acrobat (acrobats are immune to knock down)
9. tumble - take less damage when falling...i would put just one point in this to activate it
swim - worthless
listen - almost worthless
haggle - mostly just for having money so not vital
repair - worthless
heal - worthless
concentration - worthless on non caster

[Artos_Fabril]

Ranged rogues have a strange paradox. On one had you are ranged and therefor you want to start attacking your target from afar. Problem is you don't sneak attack with ranged attacks from a long distance...and then you have aggro and still don't sneak attack as the mob beats on you.

Pick your int score according to the number of skill points you want...not because of int modifier.

Don't max out any one stat...especially on a 28 point build.

Some players think that a rogues first duty is traps. I would say a rogues primary obligation is to produce good dps and to stay alive. All of this being said your ultimate goal is to have fun...which you won't have if you are always dead and not pulling your weight in the dps department.

Here is how I would rate rogue skills for most builds.
1. search - have to find traps
2. disable - have to disable traps
3. open lock - are expected to get locked doors and chest
4. umd - this makes you the jack of all trades
5. diplomacy - removes aggro
6. hide - rarely used but can sometimes be important - I had a rog with 0 rankes in hide/move silently and didn't regret it b/c of the play style of that rog
6. move silently
7. spot - good rogue skill, especially for new players and ranged players, but not necessary
8. jump - gets you out of trouble. don't have to max it out, especially on acrobat builds
8. balance - great stat unless you are acrobat (acrobats are immune to knock down)
9. tumble - take less damage when falling...i would put just one point in this to activate it
swim - worthless
listen - almost worthless
haggle - mostly just for having money so not vital
repair - worthless
heal - worthless

I agree with just about everything up to here

concentration - worthless on non caster

You forgot monks, Concentration is more important to monks than to any caster.

[Kawabonga]

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.34
DDO Character Planner Home Page

Nymbus Timbletook v.3
Level 20 Neutral Good Halfling Male
(1 Fighter \ 19 Rogue) 
Hit Points: 184
Spell Points: 0 
BAB: 15\15\20\25\25
Fortitude: 11
Reflex: 21
Will: 7

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
Abilities        Base Stats          Modified Stats
(32 Point)       (Level 1)             (Level 20)
Strength             12                    12
Dexterity            18                    28
Constitution         14                    14
Intelligence         14                    14
Wisdom               10                    10
Charisma             10                    10

OSboy : The stat distribution doesn't work with 32 starting points. I tried it yesterday... dexterity will be 16 if other stats stay the same.

Now I do have a little question for the vets out there (sorry OP, if I'm using your thread):

If I want to build a MC rogue assassin TWF (finesse) oriented, would it be better to have the stats above (with 16 dex) or to have 18 dex and dump WIS and CHR to 8? Or maybe even put INT to 12 and bump STR to 14 on top of that?

[OSBoy76]

OSboy : The stat distribution doesn't work with 32 starting points. I tried it yesterday... dexterity will be 16 if other stats stay the same.

Now I do have a little question for the vets out there (sorry OP, if I'm using your thread):

If I want to build a MC rogue assassin TWF (finesse) oriented, would it be better to have the stats above (with 16 dex) or to have 18 dex and dump WIS and CHR to 8? Or maybe even put INT to 12 and bump STR to 14 on top of that?

so then the character builder is bugged?

[Kawabonga]

so then the character builder is bugged?

Not sure, I only opened that thing once and find more fun to actually play the game than to play the builder...

[unbongwah]

Question, if I end up regretting it, does the game have a re-spec system in place for feats like it does for enhancements?

Yes, go to Fred the Mindflayer in House Jorasco. You get one free feat swap after doing the Dragonmark quest in the Marketplace; after that it costs (a lot).

As for for lowering INT to 12, I will experiment with that, but I really do like the extra skill points to play around with.

One other advantage to high INT on a rogue (apart from the extra skill points) is it boosts the DC on the Assassinate ability.

But should I keep Enhanced Crit Range: piercing?

Yes - pretty much every melee (or ranged) build should take Imp Crit in its preferred weapon type ASAP, IMHO.

Unfortunately I am unfamiliar with the term "rogue PrE." I assume they are enhancements, but I have never come across them in the character builder. I am very interested in the idea of Acrobat.

"PrE" stands for Prestige Enhancement. If you're familiar with PnP D&D 3.x (or other D&D CRPGs like NWN), they're similar to prestige classes, only they're enhancements (duh), not separate classes. Several classes have PrEs become available at class lvl 6; some PrEs get a 2nd or 3rd tier to them at lvls 12 & 18, respectively. Rogues have three to choose from: Acrobat, Assassin, and Mechanic. Read the compendium entry to get the gist of each. Since nobody recommends making a minmaxed trapmonkey, nobody recommends Mechanic; that leaves Acrobat or Assassin.

How do you get them to "show up" in the builder?

The PrE(s) for your class(es) will show up in the builder automatically once you have the pre-reqs; or click the "Show Unavailable" checkbox in the Enhancements section.

I am surprised to hear that Listen was considered a useless skill, does this mean that Move Silently is also less important, as they are opposed skills?

Listen is a redundant skill, as Spot usually works just as well for finding stealthed creatures; and Spot is also useful for finding traps & secret doors. AFAIK the only thing Listen is good for which Spot is not is for hearing invisible creatures; and there aren't enough invisible monsters to be worth the skill points in Listen when there are more useful skills, IMHO.

OTOH, if you're going for a stealth build, I would max Hide & MS; just because players usually skip the Listen skill doesn't mean the monsters do too! :-)

[Kawabonga]

If I want to build a MC rogue assassin TWF (finesse) oriented, would it be better to have the stats above (with 16 dex) or to have 18 dex and dump WIS and CHR to 8? Or maybe even put INT to 12 and bump STR to 14 on top of that?

Quoting myself eh... any imput on these two stat distribution options?

STR : 14
DEX : 16
CON : 14
INT : 14
WIS : 10
CHR : 10

OR

STR : 12
DEX : 18
CON : 14
INT : 14
WIS : 08
CHR : 08

[Gnorbert]

OSboy : The stat distribution doesn't work with 32 starting points. I tried it yesterday... dexterity will be 16 if other stats stay the same.

That stat distribution DOES work for a 32 point halfling. You probably had a different race selected.

for 32 point halfling finesse assassin I would go

Str: 14
Dex: 18
Con: 14
Int: 14
Wis: 8
Cha: 8

[Kawabonga]

That stat distribution DOES work for a 32 point halfling. You probably had a different race selected.

for 32 point halfling finesse assassin I would go

Str: 14
Dex: 18
Con: 14
Int: 14
Wis: 8
Cha: 8

Oh there u go, I made it human... my error. Would it be advisable to make this toon human for the sake of the extra feat (costing 2 STR)?

[Gnorbert]

If you want to go dex based then I would really go halfling myself.

For a human I'd probably want to stay strength based due to the increased cost of Dex at creation and having less dex available through APs. Since you won't have the easy dex a halfling gets, nor the penalty to Str of a halfling you will be better off Str based. Also human is the only race with access to +Str through APs (until the Half-Orc is released perhaps)

I would go

Str: 16
Dex: 16
Con: 14
Int: 14
Wis: 8
Cha: 8


A pure rogue halfling finesse still has enough feats for the basics:

Toughness
weapon finesse
TWF
ITWF
GTWF
Imp Crit: pierce
Power Attack


A pure rogue human Str based rogue would have room for Skill Focus: UMD and Khopesh:
Toughness
Weapon Prof: Khopesh
TWF
ITWF
GTWF
Imp Crit: slash
Power Attack
Skill Focus: UMD


If you splash a level of fighter early on then the finesse halfling capitalizes the most since it can now fit in SF:UMD later on. The human with a fighter splash might take a weapon focus or perhaps another Imp Crit feat. Or maybe even quickdraw.

[Kawabonga]

Many thanx Gnorbert, +1.

[OSBoy76]

If you want to go dex based then I would really go halfling myself.

For a human I'd probably want to stay strength based due to the increased cost of Dex at creation and having less dex available through APs. Since you won't have the easy dex a halfling gets, nor the penalty to Str of a halfling you will be better off Str based. Also human is the only race with access to +Str through APs (until the Half-Orc is released perhaps)

I would go

Str: 16
Dex: 16
Con: 14
Int: 14
Wis: 8
Cha: 8


A pure rogue halfling finesse still has enough feats for the basics:

Toughness
weapon finesse
TWF
ITWF
GTWF
Imp Crit: pierce
Power Attack


A pure rogue human Str based rogue would have room for Skill Focus: UMD and Khopesh:
Toughness
Weapon Prof: Khopesh
TWF
ITWF
GTWF
Imp Crit: slash
Power Attack
Skill Focus: UMD


If you splash a level of fighter early on then the finesse halfling capitalizes the most since it can now fit in SF:UMD later on. The human with a fighter splash might take a weapon focus or perhaps another Imp Crit feat. Or maybe even quickdraw.

Thank you very much for clearing this up! I went ahead and made a character useing this stat distribution for the halfling rogue with one lvl of fighter at 2. I am only at level 2, but WOW what a difference from the repeater rogue I was originaly going with. he looks cooler too.

I'm gonna reroll one last time to go with the feat progression you set up. I works alot smother that way.

Yes, go to Fred the Mindflayer in House Jorasco. You get one free feat swap after doing the Dragonmark quest in the Marketplace; after that it costs (a lot).

One other advantage to high INT on a rogue (apart from the extra skill points) is it boosts the DC on the Assassinate ability.

Yes - pretty much every melee (or ranged) build should take Imp Crit in its preferred weapon type ASAP, IMHO.

"PrE" stands for Prestige Enhancement. If you're familiar with PnP D&D 3.x (or other D&D CRPGs like NWN), they're similar to prestige classes, only they're enhancements (duh), not separate classes. Several classes have PrEs become available at class lvl 6; some PrEs get a 2nd or 3rd tier to them at lvls 12 & 18, respectively. Rogues have three to choose from: Acrobat, Assassin, and Mechanic. Read the compendium entry to get the gist of each. Since nobody recommends making a minmaxed trapmonkey, nobody recommends Mechanic; that leaves Acrobat or Assassin.

The PrE(s) for your class(es) will show up in the builder automatically once you have the pre-reqs; or click the "Show Unavailable" checkbox in the Enhancements section.

Listen is a redundant skill, as Spot usually works just as well for finding stealthed creatures; and Spot is also useful for finding traps & secret doors. AFAIK the only thing Listen is good for which Spot is not is for hearing invisible creatures; and there aren't enough invisible monsters to be worth the skill points in Listen when there are more useful skills, IMHO.

OTOH, if you're going for a stealth build, I would max Hide & MS; just because players usually skip the Listen skill doesn't mean the monsters do too! :-)

Thanks for the answering my questions! And thank you for the link! There is SOOO much info there.

I do have one more question, though - why does everyone emphisize Diplomacy and not bluff? According to the discription it can make a target vulnerable to sneek attack. also it buffed by Assasin PrE.

[OSBoy76]

Ok I think I finally got a good build down. Its a fairly conventional 19/1 assasin PrE. Thanks to everyone who took the time to help out. This will be the first character I will take to 20 and I expect him to be a ton of fun.

Any final tweeks or comments are more than welcomed^^

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.34
DDO Character Planner Home Page

Bingoh Weatherbee v.1
Level 20 Neutral Good Halfling Male
(1 Fighter \ 19 Rogue) 
Hit Points: 206
Spell Points: 0 
BAB: 15\15\20\25\25
Fortitude: 11
Reflex: 21
Will: 6

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
Abilities        Base Stats          Modified Stats
(32 Point)       (Level 1)             (Level 20)
Strength             14                    14
Dexterity            18                    28
Constitution         14                    14
Intelligence         14                    14
Wisdom                8                     8
Charisma              8                     8

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
                 Base Skills         Modified Skills
Skills           (Level 1)            (Level 20)
Balance               8                    25
Bluff                -1                     6
Concentration         2                     3
Diplomacy             3                    23
Disable Device        6                    27
Haggle               -1                     0
Heal                 -1                     0
Hide                  8                    43
Intimidate           -1                     0
Jump                  2                     5
Listen               -1                     2
Move Silently         8                    43
Open Lock             8                    33
Perform              n/a                    n/a
Repair                2                     3
Search                6                    26
Spot                  3                    23
Swim                  2                     3
Tumble                8                    33
Use Magic Device      3                    26

Level 1 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness
Enhancement: Rogue Damage Boost I
Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost I
Enhancement: Rogue Skill Boost I
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training I


Level 2 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Weapon Finesse
Enhancement: Rogue Hide I
Enhancement: Rogue Move Silently I


Level 3 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Two Weapon Fighting
Enhancement: Halfling Dexterity I
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy I
Enhancement: Rogue Dexterity I


Level 4 (Rogue)


Level 5 (Rogue)
Enhancement: Rogue Damage Boost II
Enhancement: Rogue Skill Boost II
Enhancement: Rogue Subtle Backstabbing I
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training II
Enhancement: Rogue Hide II


Level 6 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Power Attack
Enhancement: Rogue Move Silently II


Level 7 (Rogue)
Enhancement: Rogue Dexterity II


Level 8 (Rogue)
Enhancement: Halfling Dexterity II


Level 9 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Weapon Fighting
Enhancement: Rogue Assassin I
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy II


Level 10 (Rogue)
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training III


Level 11 (Rogue)
Feat: (Rogue Bonus) Cripling Strike
Enhancement: Rogue Skill Boost III


Level 12 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Piercing Weapons
Enhancement: Rogue Dexterity III


Level 13 (Rogue)
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy III


Level 14 (Rogue)
Feat: (Rogue Bonus) Improved Evasion
Enhancement: Rogue Subtle Backstabbing II
Enhancement: Rogue Assassin II


Level 15 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Weapon Fighting
Enhancement: Rogue Skill Boost IV


Level 16 (Rogue)
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training IV


Level 17 (Rogue)
Feat: (Rogue Bonus) Slippery Mind
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy IV


Level 18 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Skill Focus: Use Magic Device
Enhancement: Rogue Subtle Backstabbing III


Level 19 (Rogue)
Enhancement: Rogue Subtle Backstabbing IV
Enhancement: Rogue Assassin III


Level 20 (Rogue)
Feat: (Rogue Bonus) Skill Mastery
Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost II
Enhancement: Rogue Wrack Construct I
Enhancement: Rogue Disable Device I

[Razcar]

+1 to Unbongwah and Gnorbert for handing out solid advice to new players. That's what the rep system should be for IMO.

[unbongwah]

I do have one more question, though - why does everyone emphisize Diplomacy and not bluff? According to the discription it can make a target vulnerable to sneek attack. also it buffed by Assasin PrE.

They actually both have their uses:

Diplomacy is an AoE which reduces hate, the idea being that in groups you want to dump aggro and get the mobs to attack someone else so you can sneak-attack them.

Bluff has two functions: making a single target which is attacking you vulnerable to SA; and pulling a single target without aggroing its neighbors. The problem with using Bluff for the former is it takes a couple of seconds to fire off, during which you stand there doing nothing, and it only makes the target vulnerable to a single SA (assuming it even works). Most of the time you're better off using Diplomacy to get mobs to attack the tank instead, although I've seen a couple of Assassins claim Bluff is really useful at high levels. I actually find Bluff more useful for pulls: it has a decent range and can be used without breaking stealth.

I'm weird: I actually like having both skills on my rogues because I like the extra options they provide. But you don't need either to be an effective rogue.

The only other advice I have concerning your build is alignment: if you're going rogue 19 / fighter 1, then you might be better off with True Neutral. It renders you immune to a lot of the alignment-based damage; and it lets you use Stability items, which provide bonuses to saves & AC. It sucks a little not being able to use Good-aligned weapons right away; but eventually your UMD will be high enough to let you bypass the alignment (and race) restrictions on equipment.