rog13/pal6/ftr1 a viable build?

**Tanks** · 04-05-2010, 01:02 AM

I have returned to the game after a long time away. I had created this toon back lvl10-cap days at a Batman build (pal7/rog2/ftr1), back when Tempest Spine was the Big Show. I came back briefly and lvl'ed her to 16...mainly because I was too lazy to reroll. The build, as it currently stands, is atrocious: rog8/pal7/ftr1. I was thinking about doing a +1heartwood to: a) get her to 32pt and b) take out a lvl of pal and go to 20 to end up with rog13/pal6/ftr1. Is this a waste of time/VIP-points or can I make her into a deeply skilled trap monkey with twf that can contribute at the highest lvl of the game? I've done a bit of research but there're so many changes to the game that I thought I'd defer to your collective wisdom to help me sort this out. I may post a build shortly but I'm curious what you all think. Should I do rog13/pal7 instead?

Thanks for your time!

**Rineth** · 04-05-2010, 01:16 AM

This build is definitely workable, although I would suggest swapping out the fighter for monk. The fighter really doesn't gain you much but an extra feat. Monk on the other hand will help you get your AC towards what's expected for melees at endgame.

So Rogue 13/Pally 6/Monk 1. Take Knight of the Chalice for your pally prestige, as the rest aren't that great. Build with a decent Wis from the start which you can amp up later with tomes and items. Alternatively, Rogue 12/Pally 6/Monk 2 would work as well. Rogue 13 doesn't gain you much, you'll still have enough for your tier 2 prestige, and the monk 2 will give you an extra feat. Really up to you, but either way I'd say that's a solid base for a build.

**lord_of_rage** · 04-05-2010, 01:29 AM

Originally Posted by Rineth

This build is definitely workable, although I would suggest swapping out the fighter for monk. The fighter really doesn't gain you much but an extra feat. Monk on the other hand will help you get your AC towards what's expected for melees at endgame.

So Rogue 13/Pally 6/Monk 1. Take Knight of the Chalice for your pally prestige, as the rest aren't that great. Build with a decent Wis from the start which you can amp up later with tomes and items. Alternatively, Rogue 12/Pally 6/Monk 2 would work as well. Rogue 13 doesn't gain you much, you'll still have enough for your tier 2 prestige, and the monk 2 will give you an extra feat. Really up to you, but either way I'd say that's a solid base for a build.

I have to disagree rogue 13 does give you alot. It gives you 1d6 backstab and a second rogue feat. Now personally Id rather take improved evasion with the rogue feat over an extra monk feat. Its my personal feeling that any 13/6/1 should have crippling strike and improved evasion.

To the op yes the build is very viable. You will have awesome saves, a couple of loh and at least dm1 if you work cha right. I think it could be alot of fun

**Tanks** · 04-05-2010, 02:10 AM

@Rineth: 13rog/pal6/mnk1 would require I re-spec 2 class-levels which is simply too expensive (VIP/$-wise).

@lord_of_rage: I agree with you, the extra Rogue Feat at lvl13 seems totally worth it to me so far!

What about starting stats?

STR 16 (+6item +2tome = 24)
DEX 14 (all lvl-ups to here? +5@lvl20 +3class +6item +4tome +1exceptional +1human = 34)
CON 14 (+6item +2tome = 22)
INT 13 (+2tome +6item +1exceptional = 22)
WIS 8 (+3tome +6item +1human = 18)
CHA 13 (+3tome +6item = 22)

+1 tomes already eaten for: dex/con/wis/cha, can eat INT-tome so that I get the extra skill pt after lvl3

Level-ups and +1DEX tome get me to ITWF/GTWF before BAB6 I think.

Skills: Jump, Balance, Intimidate (maybe?), OL, DD, Search, UMD, and extras in Spot/Tumble/Haggle/MoveSilently

Feats:

Human Toughness
1st TWF
3rd Khopesh (or Weapon Finesse)
6th OTWF
Fighter ITWF
9th IC
12th GTWF
15th PA
18th CE

-ish?

Have I missed anything so far?

**lord_of_rage** · 04-05-2010, 04:55 AM

Originally Posted by Tanks

@Rineth: 13rog/pal6/mnk1 would require I re-spec 2 class-levels which is simply too expensive (VIP/$-wise).

@lord_of_rage: I agree with you, the extra Rogue Feat at lvl13 seems totally worth it to me so far!

What about starting stats?

STR 16 (+6item +2tome = 24)
DEX 14 (all lvl-ups to here? +5@lvl20 +3class +6item +4tome +1exceptional +1human = 34)
CON 14 (+6item +2tome = 22)
INT 13 (+3tome +6item +1exceptional = 20)
WIS 8 (+3tome +6item +1human = 18)
CHA 13 (+3tome +6item = 22)

+1 tomes already eaten for: dex/con/wis/cha, can eat INT-tome so that I get the extra skill pt after lvl3

Level-ups and +1DEX tome get me to ITWF/GTWF before BAB6 I think.

Skills: Jump, Balance, Intimidate (maybe?), OL, DD, Search, UMD, and extras in Spot/Tumble/Haggle/MoveSilently

Feats:

Human Toughness
1st TWF
3rd Khopesh (or Weapon Finesse)
6th OTWF
Fighter ITWF
9th IC
12th GTWF
15th PA
18th CE

-ish?

Have I missed anything so far?

If you are human by all means go str based an kopesh if you have them. Your feats look good. If you were to go str I would get your dex to 15 and eat a +2 tome then put all lvl points into str.But if you are pushing for ac and robes you could go the dex route an when you hit 20 tr into the same build or whatever else you would like.

**Clay** · 04-05-2010, 05:21 AM

Agree with going Str-Khopesh. Have enough dex to qualify for the GTWF and level ups into Str.

You cannot take TWF at lvl one UNLESS you start dex at 15.

Also, have you considered dumping Intimidate for Diplo for aggro dumping, and then dumping CE. You are never really going to want to be main tank... and if you have aggro, you are losing all of your sneak attack damage. You hit diplo and there are your sneak attacks again. You hit Intimidate... and there goes your sneak attacks. I have cleave on my Assassin Dorf... big group of mobs... and either hit diplo and cleave or wait for the tank to intim and cleave--it's nice seeing all those sneak attacks go off!

But I think it is a viable build. knight of the chalice I with acrobat II or Assassin II would be fun to play.

If you WERE going to go Dex based... I'd keep Pal7 and switch Ftr1 to Monk 1 for the ac bonus.

Don't forget you have Paladin Charisma to add to the build stats... so you could conceivably drop cha a little. I really love Hide and Move Silently on my rogues. It makes bastion a breeze. You only need enough tumble to actually tumble, and enough balance to reach 40 with balance 15 item, GH etc.

EDIT: Oh and Welcome Back!

**Tanks** · 04-05-2010, 05:27 AM

Originally Posted by lord_of_rage

If you are human by all means go str based an kopesh if you have them. Your feats look good. If you were to go str I would get your dex to 15 and eat a +2 tome then put all lvl points into str.But if you are pushing for ac and robes you could go the dex route an when you hit 20 tr into the same build or whatever else you would like.

I have a number of nice piercing/finesse weapons as well as a decent collection of khopeshes, so I do have options. I should note that I already have Icy Raiment in my possession, so the cloth/high-dex route was what I was planning. I'll post the dex-build shortly (still working it out) but I cannot see grabbing more strength/dex without tanking CHA which affects my saves, smites, LoH, Intim, UMD (no biggie, I'll have plenty), and Divine Might. The Intimidate is mainly for peeling/trash but I dunno about losing the saves, smites, etc. Also, my dex will be moderately high which would increase my to-hit over a str-build (I think).

Thanks for taking the time to respond, it's definitely challenging me to formulate a plan which can eclipse the current turd of a toon lol. I'll post shortly what I've worked out so far.

**Clay** · 04-05-2010, 06:45 AM

15 +3enh +3tome +1exceptional +6item = 28 which is good enough for Icies. You could also put +2 exceptional on your Radiance to reach 30.

And you could still have a strength of:

15 +5 lvl ups +3tome +1exceptional +6 item = 30. +2 exceptional on ToD ring +madstoneX2 +rage = 38.

**Tanks** · 04-05-2010, 01:43 PM

Thanks for the input, Clay!

So, going STR build, here's what I've got so far (doing a +2 all-stats tome @lvl7):

STR 15 (+5lvl +6item +4tome +1human +1exceptional +2rage +4madstoneX2= 38)
DEX 15 (+3class +6item +2tome +1exceptional +1human = 28)
CON 14 (+6item +2tome = 22)
INT 14 (+2tome +6item = 22)
WIS 8 (+2tome +6item = 16)
CHA 12 (+3tome +6item +1exceptional = 22)

Skills: Jump, Balance, bluff or Diplo, OL, DD, Search, UMD, and extras in Spot/Tumble/Haggle/MoveSilently

Feats:

1st (Human) Toughness
1st TWF
3rd Khopesh
6th OTWF
Fighter ITWF
9th IC
12th GTWF
15th PA
18th SF:Search or DD

10 Base AC
4 Icy Raiments Dodge
1 Alchemical Dodge
3 Chattering Ring Dodge
9 Dexterity
4 Insight (Shroud Crafted)
5 Protection
2 Pal aura
8 Armor Bracers
3 bark

49 self-buffed
55 Improved Uncanny Dodge boosts (30sec)
57 Showtime + IUD (60sec)

Saves

4/8/4 Rogue
5/2/2 Paladin
2/0/0 Fighter
6/9/3 stats
6/6/6 cha
2/2/2 aura
5/5/5 resist
2/2/2 head
4/4/4 gh

36/38/28

HP

20 Heroic Durability
10 Draconic
30 gfl
50 enhancement
20 minos
22 toughness
60 pal
10 ftr
78 rog
45 gs
120 con

465

Diplomacy

23 lvl
6 cha
15 item
6 gs
4 gh
2 head

56 (boost to 61)

UMD

23 lvl
6 cha
3 cartouche
2 head
4 gh
6 gs

44 (boost to 49)

DD

23 lvl
6 int
15 item
2 head
4 gh
7 tools
6 gs
8 enhancement (MechanicII, etc)

71 (boost to 76)

Search

23 lvl
6 int
15 item
2 head
4 gh
6 gs
8 enhancement

64 (boost to 69)

Spot

23 lvl
3 wis
8 enhancement
2 head
15 item
4 gh
6 gs

61 (boost to 66)

Open Locks

23 lvl
9 dex
15 item
7 tools
8 enhancement
2 head
4 gh

68 (boost to 73)

* Add +2 to all skills if a bard is present w/song *

* Add +4-5 to a skill of the appropriate House D pots are consumed *

* Add +3 to a single skill if SF:-feat is chosen *

So what do you think? I'm pleasantly surprised with the on-paper results, so far. The only caveat is the amount of Tier3 Greensteel this build calls for...my worst project yet in that regard. I can, however, work toward this over the long haul, I think.

Civilized critique is welcome!

**unbongwah** · 04-05-2010, 03:45 PM

Originally Posted by Tanks

CHA 12 (+3tome +6item = 22)

Think your math is a little off there, Tanks.

**Tanks** · 04-05-2010, 05:51 PM

Originally Posted by unbongwah

Think your math is a little off there, Tanks.

forgot the +1exceptional bonus, nice catch

**Clay** · 04-06-2010, 01:59 PM

You are again forgetting Paladin Charisma I and II for an additional +2.

**Stanley_Nicholas** · 04-06-2010, 06:59 PM

Starting from scratch so the level order can be freely chosen, and since you've expressed some interest in stealth skills, I'd go with something like this:

Code:

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.16
DDO Character Planner Home Page

Level 20 Lawful Good Human Male
(1 Fighter \ 6 Paladin \ 13 Rogue) 
Hit Points: 300
Spell Points: 45 
BAB: 16\16\21\26\26
Fortitude: 18
Reflex: 19
Will: 10

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
Abilities        Base Stats          Modified Stats
(32 Point)       (Level 1)             (Level 20)
Strength             16                    23
Dexterity            15                    20
Constitution         14                    17
Intelligence         12                    14
Wisdom                8                    10
Charisma             12                    15

Tomes Used
+2 Tome of Strength used at level 7
+2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 7
+2 Tome of Constitution used at level 7
+2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 7
+2 Tome of Wisdom used at level 7
+2 Tome of Charisma used at level 7

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
                 Base Skills         Modified Skills
Skills           (Level 1)            (Level 20)
Balance               6                    15
Bluff                 1                     2
Concentration         2                     3
Diplomacy             1                    25
Disable Device        5                    25
Haggle                1                     2
Heal                 -1                     0
Hide                  6                    27
Intimidate            1                     2
Jump                  7                    15
Listen               -1                     0
Move Silently         6                    27
Open Lock             6                    28
Perform               n/a                   n/a
Repair                1                     2
Search                5                    25
Spot                  3                    23
Swim                  3                     6
Tumble                6                    15
Use Magic Device      5                    28

Level 1 (Rogue)
Skill: Balance (+4)
Skill: Disable Device (+4)
Skill: Hide (+4)
Skill: Jump (+4)
Skill: Move Silently (+4)
Skill: Open Lock (+4)
Skill: Search (+4)
Skill: Spot (+4)
Skill: Tumble (+4)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+4)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness
Feat: (Human Bonus) Two Weapon Fighting


Level 2 (Paladin)
Skill: Diplomacy (+4)


Level 3 (Rogue)
Skill: Disable Device (+2)
Skill: Open Lock (+2)
Skill: Search (+2)
Skill: Spot (+2)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+2)
Feat: (Selected) Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Khopesh


Level 4 (Rogue)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Hide (+2)
Skill: Move Silently (+3)
Skill: Open Lock (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)


Level 5 (Paladin)
Skill: Diplomacy (+4)


Level 6 (Rogue)
Skill: Disable Device (+2)
Skill: Open Lock (+2)
Skill: Search (+2)
Skill: Spot (+2)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+2)
Feat: (Selected) Oversized Two Weapon Fighting


Level 7 (Rogue)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Hide (+3)
Skill: Move Silently (+2)
Skill: Open Lock (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)


Level 8 (Fighter)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Improved Two Weapon Fighting


Level 9 (Paladin)
Skill: Diplomacy (+3)
Skill: Search (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Power Attack


Level 10 (Rogue)
Skill: Disable Device (+2)
Skill: Open Lock (+3)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+3)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+2)


Level 11 (Rogue)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Hide (+2)
Skill: Move Silently (+3)
Skill: Open Lock (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+2)


Level 12 (Paladin)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Diplomacy (+3)
Skill: Search (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons


Level 13 (Rogue)
Skill: Disable Device (+2)
Skill: Hide (+1)
Skill: Move Silently (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+2)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+2)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+2)


Level 14 (Rogue)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Hide (+3)
Skill: Move Silently (+3)
Skill: Open Lock (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)


Level 15 (Paladin)
Skill: Diplomacy (+3)
Skill: Search (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Weapon Fighting


Level 16 (Rogue)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Disable Device (+2)
Skill: Hide (+1)
Skill: Move Silently (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+2)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+2)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+2)
Feat: (Rogue Bonus) Cripling Strike


Level 17 (Rogue)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Hide (+3)
Skill: Move Silently (+3)
Skill: Open Lock (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)


Level 18 (Paladin)
Skill: Diplomacy (+3)
Skill: Search (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Skill Focus: Use Magic Device


Level 19 (Rogue)
Skill: Diplomacy (+2)
Skill: Disable Device (+2)
Skill: Open Lock (+2)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+2)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+2)


Level 20 (Rogue)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Diplomacy (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Hide (+3)
Skill: Move Silently (+2)
Skill: Open Lock (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Rogue Bonus) Improved Evasion
Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost I
Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost II
Enhancement: Rogue Skill Boost I
Enhancement: Unyielding Sovereignty
Enhancement: Follower of the Sovereign Host
Enhancement: Fighter Critical Accuracy I
Enhancement: Human Adaptability Constitution I
Enhancement: Human Improved Recovery I
Enhancement: Rogue Subtle Backstabbing I
Enhancement: Rogue Subtle Backstabbing II
Enhancement: Paladin Courage of Good I
Enhancement: Paladin Bulwark of Good I
Enhancement: Paladin Resistance of Good I
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Sacrifice I
Enhancement: Paladin Exalted Smite I
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Lay on Hands I
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Smite Evil I
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Smite Evil II
Enhancement: Paladin Knight of the Chalice I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
Enhancement: Racial Toughness III
Enhancement: Rogue Faster Sneaking I
Enhancement: Rogue Thief-Acrobat I
Enhancement: Rogue Thief-Acrobat II
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training I
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training II
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training III
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training IV
Enhancement: Rogue Balance I
Enhancement: Rogue Balance II
Enhancement: Rogue Tumble I
Enhancement: Rogue Tumble II
Enhancement: Paladin Energy of the Templar I
Enhancement: Paladin Charisma I
Enhancement: Rogue Dexterity I
Enhancement: Rogue Dexterity II
Enhancement: Rogue Dexterity III
Enhancement: Paladin Toughness I
Enhancement: Paladin Toughness II
Enhancement: Rogue Improved Trap Sense I
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Might I

No need to put much into balance, since when you hit rogue 12 you'll have full immunity to knockdown and slippery surfaces anyway. For your actual build you may not be able to get hide and move silent quite as high due to level order, but you can still get everything you need with 12 int instead of 14. Best to never start a primary stat below 16, IMO. Especially for a build that doesn't get a full 20 BAB.

**Averroes** · 04-06-2010, 07:19 PM

Check out Dark-Star's build: http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=194791

It's one of the most carefully optimized and versatile builds out there.

Without being able to switch the fighter level for a monk level you give up some AC, but you can fairly trivially refactor Dark's build to dump AC and add more DPS. The AC is only relevant if you have *all* the gear anyway.

I've played mine for 4 or 5 months with effectively zero AC while grinding out the gear, and it's still a very effective DPS off-tank as well as hate-based main tank. It could be made to work fine as a human as well.

Hope that helps. Should certainly be better than re-inventing the wheel, as it were.

**Clay** · 04-07-2010, 06:14 AM

Acrobats are not immune to knock down in a couple situations... one being titan.

**Tanks** · 04-07-2010, 12:06 PM

Thank you for the feedback, guys...special thanks to Stanley for taking the time to formulate an entire build...+1rep for j00!

**Stanley_Nicholas** · 04-07-2010, 09:24 PM

Originally Posted by Clay

Acrobats are not immune to knock down in a couple situations... one being titan.

You'll still stand back up fast enough without having max ranks in balance.

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