High Level PvP & Community Questions

[Mattgbg]

Greetings, Sarlona Forum.

Some of you may know me in-game as Zorrr, the level 9 Barbarian that frequents the Wayward Lobster and likes to challenge random level 20's to arena death-matches (and promptly get destroyed.) I am very curious about a few aspects of PvP endgame in DDO, and Sarlona's PvP community itself:

1. Is there an active community of PvP'ers on this server? I can see that the Wayward Lobster typically has an abundance of level 20's looking for a fight, but what about people that do deathmatch / CTF arenas? At level 20 can I expect to join the arena queue and actually get placed in a group? (This is certainly NOT the case at level 9...) Do level 20's form pre-made groups and compete with each other on a regular basis?

2. Do people typically build / optimize characters in this game purely for PvP? Would it be a better idea for me to have two separate characters for Raiding and PvP, or will one probably suffice? (Keep in mind I am using a Barbarian)

3. Is Trip useful in PvP at higher levels? Currently as a level 9 Barbarian, tripping never seems to fail me in a duel. My +6 strength modifier (Higher when raging) and vertigo weapon almost guarantee a successful trip against another level 9, which often provides me enough time to destroy any lightly armored character. Potentially I could improve this going forward with additional feats, but I would like to know if this strategy scales well at higher levels (Due to itemization, Higher Balance Checks, etc.) or if I should not waste my time seeking to improve it.

4. Why don't people ever use the brawling tavern in Deneith? It's layout much less clustered than the Wayward Lobster... Yet to this day I've never seen anyone using it. Am I missing something?

I know this game's primary focus is PvE, and I enjoy that aspect of the game, I am just a curious newcomer who likes a good fight.

-Matt

[Visty]

no
no
yes
theres more loebie ganking in the harbor, thus ppl go there

[Angelus_dead]

1. Is there an active community of PvP'ers on this server? I can see that the Wayward Lobster typically has an abundance of level 20's looking for a fight, but what about people that do deathmatch / CTF arenas? At level 20 can I expect to join the arena queue and actually get placed in a group?

There is no active PVP community on any server, because PVP works poorly in DDO. Occasionally people of a certain level will group up and go CTF or something, but for that to be fun for long depends on them limiting themselves with self-imposed rules (most commonly to restrict it to a subset of character classes).

2. Do people typically build / optimize characters in this game purely for PvP?

Absolutely not. There are a few people who have made a self-described "PVP build" (usually sor/pal/mon), but that is highly rare. And it's not as if that character doesn't raid.

Keep in mind that success in melee PVP is heavily determined by the number of high damage "guard" items you are wearing, such as Lightning Guard which has maybe a 1% chance to inflict 700 damage on your attacker.

3. Is Trip useful in PvP at higher levels?

It is similarly useful. It actually gets a higher chance to work against most players (their str probably won't raise as much as yours does, and your Vertigo will increase), although higher-level characters can jump and zoom a bit more.

4. Why don't people ever use the brawling tavern in Deneith? It's layout much less clustered than the Wayward Lobster... Yet to this day I've never seen anyone using it. Am I missing something?

The biggest reason is simply Metcalf's Law: players who want to PVP will migrate towards places which already contain players for PVP, so any small difference in popularity will be amplified in a feedback loop. The structural differences is (1) the Deneith tavern is further away from the hubs of popular quests, and (2) in that tavern it is harder to see if someone is in the PVP room.

[Mattgbg]

There is no active PVP community on any server, because PVP works poorly in DDO. Occasionally people of a certain level will group up and go CTF or something, but for that to be fun for long depends on them limiting themselves with self-imposed rules (most commonly to restrict it to a subset of character classes).


Absolutely not. There are a few people who have made a self-described "PVP build" (usually sor/pal/mon), but that is highly rare. And it's not as if that character doesn't raid.

Keep in mind that success in melee PVP is heavily determined by the number of high damage "guard" items you are wearing, such as Lightning Guard which has maybe a 1% chance to inflict 700 damage on your attacker.


It is similarly useful. It actually gets a higher chance to work against most players (their str probably won't raise as much as yours does, and your Vertigo will increase), although higher-level characters can jump and zoom a bit more.


The biggest reason is simply Metcalf's Law: players who want to PVP will migrate towards places which already contain players for PVP, so any small difference in popularity will be amplified in a feedback loop. The structural differences is (1) the Deneith tavern is further away from the hubs of popular quests, and (2) in that tavern it is harder to see if someone is in the PVP room.

Thank you for the response. I realize this game is much more balanced / oriented for PvE than for PvP, but I think the fast-paced combat system itself is really well suited for PvP, it reminds me a lot of Diablo II in its heyday.

[Solmage]

Thank you for the response. I realize this game is much more balanced / oriented for PvE than for PvP, but I think the fast-paced combat system itself is really well suited for PvP, it reminds me a lot of Diablo II in its heyday.

It can be fun, specially capture the flag and whatnot, but you need to create balanced teams because some classes/builds are clearly stronger than others in PvP.

[Mattgbg]

It can be fun, specially capture the flag and whatnot, but you need to create balanced teams because some classes/builds are clearly stronger than others in PvP.

So in DDO, the players must balance the PvP for the game, rather than most MMOs where the game tries to balance the PvP for the players. Interesting...

[rest]

So in DDO, the players must balance the PvP for the game, rather than most MMOs where the game tries to balance the PvP for the players. Interesting...

PvP was added as an afterthought to DDO. So it was never really looked at from a development standpoint. Plus if you tried to balance the game for PvP, PvE would suffer (IMHO).

[Mattgbg]

PvP was added as an afterthought to DDO. So it was never really looked at from a development standpoint. Plus if you tried to balance the game for PvP, PvE would suffer (IMHO).

In general, I agree with that statement; It would be a terrible idea to jeopardize the PvE balance in DDO since PvE is what D&D is all about, and is what 99.9% of the people play it for. However, due to the wider range of people being drawn to the game because of F2P, I wouldn't be surprised if Turbine tried to spruce up PvP a bit and find ways to get people to buy Turbine points for it. Some things that I think might improve it overall would be a fortification cap of 50% imposed on PvP encounters ( I know that an across-the-board fortification cap would cause an uprising amongst raiders), and possibly limiting the effectiveness of many 1-shot spells in PvP. As long as they're careful about preserving PvE, they could make PvP and the game itself a lot more desirable.

[zorander6]

I've only done PVP once, my wife decided she wanted to kill my level 10 cleric with her level 8 rogue. If I stood still and didn't cast any spells she could kill me......

[Mattgbg]

I've only done PVP once, my wife decided she wanted to kill my level 10 cleric with her level 8 rogue. If I stood still and didn't cast any spells she could kill me......

That reminds me of a similar situation I had during the first few years of WoW... My sister decided she wanted to start PvP'ing to get some gear upgrades, but after playing the game for 1.5 years without ever fighting against another player she had a lot to learn. Since she was too embarrassed to enter the battlegrounds without any practice I agreed to a few duels so I could offer her some advice / tactics.

The 2 first duels turned out heavily one-sided (as expected when fighting a new player), so I decided it would be better to stick to an "auto-attack only" strategy for the rest of the duels while she learned. Sadly, this only ended up giving her about a 50/50 shot at winning...

Eventually she ended up being a valuable member of a 3v3 arena team I was on, but it was certainly a rocky start.

[Solmage]

I and possibly limiting the effectiveness of many 1-shot spells in PvP. As long as they're careful about preserving PvE, they could make PvP and the game itself a lot more desirable.

The problem is the entire DDO ruleset which would need to be changed, together with how most pieces of gear work/stop working.

Casters need their 1 shot spells because they get exactly that, 1 shot, (possibly 2) or else they get tripped and killed by the hulking melee.

The melee attacking the other melee will get killed by the 700 damage guard effect going off.

Etc etc etc.

[Catiriona]

The pvmp of lotro could possibly work here... would take some work though, some spells, etc not working in pvp but nothing being changed in pve, but because there is already a D&d framework for leveling with monsters and the classes can be the same at the very least it could be more balanced. You need something here that people can completely avoid if theY want to because the majority has no interest in pvp and justifiably worries it will effect PVE negatively.

[Original]

I have heard of PVP... I remember accepting a blind invite a few years back and being teleport to some arena and getting spanked. I think it teleported me to a different game where PVPing is something to actually do.
As far as PVP in DDO I don't think it exists... maybe its vast and mysterious :O

[Mattgbg]

The problem is the entire DDO ruleset which would need to be changed, together with how most pieces of gear work/stop working.

Casters need their 1 shot spells because they get exactly that, 1 shot, (possibly 2) or else they get tripped and killed by the hulking melee.

The melee attacking the other melee will get killed by the 700 damage guard effect going off.

Etc etc etc.

The core rules / balance of D&D does present an interesting challenge for PvP balance. I really think the best way they could go about it would be to take an EXTREMELY minimal approach to balancing classes (i.e. allowing a high degree degree of class imbalance in the PvP setting.) In most MMOS this leads to a lot complaining by the PvP disadvantaged classes because everyone feels entitled to enjoy PvP (rightfully so), but in DDO I doubt that would be a problem 1. Because it is fairly easy to roll additional characters and 2. There is nothing to gain from the PvP system other than fun (i.e. no class is at a GEAR disadvantage by not being able to compete in PvP.)

The pvmp of lotro could possibly work here... would take some work though, some spells, etc not working in pvp but nothing being changed in pve, but because there is already a D&d framework for leveling with monsters and the classes can be the same at the very least it could be more balanced. You need something here that people can completely avoid if theY want to because the majority has no interest in pvp and justifiably worries it will effect PVE negatively.

I never played LOTRO, but it sounds like we are on the same page, especially that last sentence. I'm pretty confident Turbine knows that and would be extremely cautious not to put any PvE mechanics at any risk.

As far as PVP in DDO I don't think it exists... maybe its vast and mysterious :O

I think you may be on to something with the whole "vast and mysterious" thing. Infact, I'm pretty sure that somewhere in the Waterworks there is a thriving fight-club-esque underground PvP scene. I'm going to perform a thorough investigation into this matter first thing when I get home...