Pure fighter Kensai Arcane Archer

[AylinIsAwesome]

1. I was unaware that we were discussing have no gear at all. However do you manage to shoot arrows without a bow?

Wow are you dense.

FvS CHA 1 is at level 2. So you take that, and now you have a CHA of 9. Still not enough to cast spells, and you couldn't cast at all during FvS level 1. You can get a +1 item...which brings you to 10. Still can't cast. You couldn't munch a +1 CHA tome though, and cast level one spells. Then you level to 4. You get level 2 spells...but your CHA is still 11. 10 if you didn't have a tome. Opps, can't cast those I guess. Then you get to 5. Now you can put on a +2 CHA item and have 12 CHA (11 with with no tome).

Where did I say anything about not having items? Oh yeah, I didn't. You can't cast 'till level 5 unless you eat a tome, which is what I said.

2. There are certainly times when healing is frenetic. But most of the time, it is not.

You still have no metas. You're going to have to cast a lot more if you can't boost your cure spells.

Having the potential for 5 more AC is far more helpful than a feat you will never, ever use.

That +5 AC will do you all of...no good past Gianthold. Power Attack on the other hand is useful on non-Epic content with a two-hander if your to-hit is high enough. Which it is, with spells like Divine Favour and Divine Power, which you should take anyway if you're going to use a bow.

Plus, Power Attack doesn't require you to sink useless points into INT. Seriously, what is your obsession with Combat Expertise?

Archers crit 10% of the time on 0% fortification opponents. So that +4 damage per shot ends up being 5.2 damage per shot. With both Rapid Shot and Many Shot, you're going to end up with a little over a shot every second (over time). So what you're quibbling about is about 6 dps.

As always, DPS depends on the situation. Now think for a second about when a mob might be auto-critted. Perhaps if they're in a Hold Person spell? What's a level 2 FvS spell? Oh yeah...

And barring that (because you don't have the WIS for it), there are melee with 5% weighted items running around, casters using Mass Hold Person/Monster, Rogues (and other melee) and Casters stat-draining mobs 'till they get auto-critted, Stunning Blow/Fist...lots of opportunities for auto-criticals.

Plus your figure doesn't take into account Manyshot.

You do realize that +2 to hit isn't going to dramatically change your ability to hit or not? It's your gear that lets you hit, and every point of hit over the minimum necessary is wasted.

Honestly, it really helps to know what you're talking about. A to-hit of ~50 first shot is what you need, which requires a good DEX.

You also have to realize that, as a ranged combatant, you have a rather massive advantage over the melee combatants since you don't have to be in constant motion (for THF) or suffer an inherent penalty (for TWF).

Never heard of "kiting" mobs when solo have you?

Again, read before replying. I said it was possible to do a stat build that didn't completely dump Strength, Dexterity or Wisdom with only 28 points.

Which you failed to do. The WIS is still to low to reliably hit anything with any spell with a DC (and you lack the metas to even make BB worth it), your DEX is still to low, your STR is pathetic and you'll have issues casting spells, especially if you get Disjuncted. Imagine how quickly a hard fight goes to hell if the Divine can't cast at all.

The difference between 16 + 5 level ups + 2 FvS enhancement and 18 + 5 level ups + 2 FvS enhancements is... wait for it... +1 DC. Again, read before replying.

So...now you're saying you're going to pump WIS? I thought this was supposed to be an archer build, not a WIS-based build with zero meta-magics that wasted all it's feats on archery when it doesn't have the to-hit or damage to actually make a difference.

And most FvS don't take Spell Focus feats because in content where they need to push the limits on spell DC, they normally aren't casting Blade Barrier all that much anyway.

I'm going to guess you've never heard of the popular Evocation type Favoured Souls which take Spell Focus: Evocation.

And as for not casting Blade Barrier...what, you mean in Epic content? Blade Barrier is still useful there.

At level 4, you can have a +2 Charisma item, +1 from enhancements and a +1 tome - which is where you'd start with Veteran status. And, truthfully, if you can't solo from 1 - 4 with a 14 Strength using melee and a 20+ AC, you've got bigger problems that how you'll arrange your Charisma endgame.

So you're planning on using a tome on a worthless character? Good for you!

Let us know how it goes. :rollseyes:

No more than any other Favored Soul. You obviously have never played the class if you don't think a low Charisma is standard.

Low CHA, yes. 10-12 standard. Completely dumped? Um...no.

And you're right, yes. Those four Favoured Souls I have on Cannith don't really exist, but don't tell anyone that! That one I have on Khyber doesn't exist either!

First of all, we're talking one very specific raid. And, frankly, a raid that people manage just fine without dedicated archers.

One very specific raid...you mean the one with perhaps the best Epic loot in it, like Epic Marilith Chain, Epic Spectral Gloves, Epic Bloodstone, Epic Chaosblade... Yeah, not a very important raid right there. Keep telling yourself that.

Second of all, we're talking about a raid where a self-healing archer with evasion is ridiculously better than an archer who can neither self-heal nor reduce reflex save damage to zero (such as a Kensai III Arcane Archer).

Most Fighter versions probably take Bard for Bard Energy of the Music. Guess what skill that unlocks as a class skill. Guess what item that skill lets you use. (Hint: It's UMD and Heal scolls!)

I'm not sure what your problem is. You've yet to state anything vaguely informative or useful - you're just nitpicking (and both inaccurately and poorly) two very vague ideas I posted in response to someone else entirely. What I find particularly amusing is that in my original port there was an actual error. But in your rush to troll, you have yet to even mention. I'd recommend that you spend less time trying to be a "board warrior" and more time trying to actually make informative and intelligent posts.

"Very vague"? So...posting all the feats you'd take, the levels you'd take, and your stats is "vague"?

Also...kinda funny when you say you were responding to someone else...considering my first post to you in this thread has a quote from me at the top of it.

If I had a nickel for each time I have seen the well rehearsed "you must have never done epics" post, I could buy the silence of all the min maxers who claim that their toon is the best dps in the game and use one specific situation that favors their specific build over all others to accentuate their point.

You disagree with me? Oh yeah, well, you must have never run epics! So there!

Welcome to the new buzzword of 2010.

Normally I won't say that. But if I see someone say something like, "you can achieve a workable AC for Epics pretty easily", "Blade Barrier is useless in Epics", or anything Hjarki says, I point out that they have no idea what they're talking about.

[AylinIsAwesome]

I've been enjoying my kensai/arcane archer so far, going fighter 18/wiz1/ranger 1 (wiz for the bonus metamagic & buffing wand use, ranger to get bow strength from the start plus healing wand use), with 2handers as my backup melee option.

Currently I'm at level 9, just got imp crit, which combined with the Silver bow is seriously sweet - while i know i wont be able to keep up with the dps at high levels, at the moment its AWESOME, and with the ability to bypass any kind of DR, should be capable of a nice steady damage output with great burst damage right up until the cap.

I've seen a couple of things about comparisons of the silver bow with other stuff, apparantly pretty much the only thing better (except presumably in very specific circumstances with bane arrows plus greater bane bow etc) is a lightning2 bow, but does that comparison take into account the 16-20 crit range & bonus damage i'll have with kensai 3, or is it only for the normal assumption of 17-20 etc.?

All the comparisons between Silver Bow and Lightning 2 bow I have seen have been for 20 Ranger.

The +1 crit range I think would still put Lightning 2 over Silver Bow by a huge margin, since that increases the critical range of the Lit 2 by 50%, but of the Silver Bow by only 25%.

Not sure of the exact numbers though.

[Chai]

My opinion is if you are going ranged AA then just go 20 ranger. You get so much and do comperable dps to any other AA build that sacrifices a lot.

I know people like to make unique builds... but honestly a pure 20 ranger is the best overall AA spec in my opinion.

Correct - and for a few reasons. Including...

You not only get most of the good ranged feats free, you get good melee feats free without having to meet the normal pre-reqs.

If any more love is tossed to ranged characters, it will likely go to rangers first.

[zealous]

FvS CHA 1 is at level 2. So you take that, and now you have a CHA of 9. Still not enough to cast spells, and you couldn't cast at all during FvS level 1. You can get a +1 item...which brings you to 10. Still can't cast. You couldn't munch a +1 CHA tome though, and cast level one spells. Then you level to 4. You get level 2 spells...but your CHA is still 11. 10 if you didn't have a tome. Opps, can't cast those I guess. Then you get to 5. Now you can put on a +2 CHA item and have 12 CHA (11 with with no tome).

Wouldn't dump CHA through the floor mainly for conveniance but it's quite feasible to start with cha8 seeing as there are nice things like eagles pots, wands and spells to grant you +4 right from level 1.

Add quest reward +cha items, rr if you've been really lucky and it's more or less a cake walk.

[AylinIsAwesome]

Wouldn't dump CHA through the floor mainly for conveniance but it's quite feasible to start with cha8 seeing as there are nice things like eagles pots, wands and spells to grant you +4 right from level 1.

Add quest reward +cha items, rr if you've been really lucky and it's more or less a cake walk.

I know it's possible to cast level 9 spells even with 6 base CHA (+6 item, +2 capstone, +3 enhancements, +2 tome), but that's still 12 APs you don't really need to spend on CHA, plus if you do get Dijuncted, there's not much you can cast from levels 1-3 that can help you (Eagle's Splendor at level at level 2 would help, but then you'd only get back to 17).

That's the main reason I wouldn't go below 10 base CHA.

[Hjarki]

That +5 AC will do you all of...no good past Gianthold. Power Attack on the other hand is useful on non-Epic content with a two-hander if your to-hit is high enough. Which it is, with spells like Divine Favour and Divine Power, which you should take anyway if you're going to use a bow.

Plus, Power Attack doesn't require you to sink useless points into INT. Seriously, what is your obsession with Combat Expertise?

A better question is: what is your obsession with Power Attack? With a build as I described you will never melee. Unless you're facing weapon type-specific DR (and a fair amount of it), you would deal more damage shooting opponents point blank with your bow than you would with a melee weapon at almost any level where you'd have the second Monk level and enough +hit to use Power Attack effectively.

A feat that is occaisionally useful > a feat you can never use.

And, let's face it, your anti-Combat Expertise diatribe is... bizarre. Monk multi-class divine builds routinely gear/stat for effective levels of AC without Combat Expertise. The idea that this acceptable level of AC would somehow become useless because you added +5 to it is rather strange.

As always, DPS depends on the situation. Now think for a second about when a mob might be auto-critted. Perhaps if they're in a Hold Person spell? What's a level 2 FvS spell? Oh yeah...

If a stat has a lower return on value for one form of combat than other, it has an equally lower return on value even when you multiply the numbers by 3.

Plus your figure doesn't take into account Manyshot.

Again, read what you're replying to before making statements like this. I explicitly stated my figure took into account Many Shot.

Honestly, it really helps to know what you're talking about. A to-hit of ~50 first shot is what you need, which requires a good DEX.

Considering that it's essentially the same Dexterity as every Kensai III Arcane Archer build I've yet seen (who put all their points into Strength), I'm not sure what you're trying to argue here.

Never heard of "kiting" mobs when solo have you?

And when you're solo, you're generally not fighting mobs that require +50 to hit.

So...now you're saying you're going to pump WIS?

I always was saying. Admittedly, I wasn't explicit, but you'd think that a build with 16 levels of Favored Soul that explicitly wasn't placing those points in Strength and Dexterity (which I know you read, because you went off on mindless rants about not dealing damage and not being able to hit) would rather obviously put them in Wisdom.

I'm going to guess you've never heard of the popular Evocation type Favoured Souls which take Spell Focus: Evocation.

'Most' != 'all'. The fact that it is possible to make a Favored Soul with Spell Focus doesn't really support your argument that a build that doesn't take Spell Focus is crippled next to the average Favored Soul build that didn't have Spell Focus in the first place.

Low CHA, yes. 10-12 standard. Completely dumped? Um...no.

And what happens when you lose enhancement bonuses on a 10-12 Charisma Favored Soul? Oh right... you can't cast any of your worthwhile spells. You probably can't even cast a healing spell at all, since you're a FvS and FvS normally unlearn their low level healing spells once they're past using them.

Not to mention the fact that you're acting like its some sort of unheard-of aberration for a FvS to have an 8 Charisma - and it's somehow worse to start with an 8 Charisma if you're never planning on casting a 9th level spell.

Most Fighter versions probably take Bard for Bard Energy of the Music. Guess what skill that unlocks as a class skill. Guess what item that skill lets you use. (Hint: It's UMD and Heal scolls!)

Let me get this straight. You have 18 levels of Fighter, and you're spending 2 points/level raising UMD to the point where you can reliably use Heal scrolls - so that you can get interrupted by whirling blades of death with your almost non-existent Concentration skill in order to throw 90 point Heal scrolls?

Normally I won't say that. But if I see someone say something like, "you can achieve a workable AC for Epics pretty easily", "Blade Barrier is useless in Epics", or anything Hjarki says, I point out that they have no idea what they're talking about.

Given that I said neither of those things, I'll remind you again: read posts before replying to them.

[Visty]

A better question is: what is your obsession with Power Attack? With a build as I described you will never melee. Unless you're facing weapon type-specific DR (and a fair amount of it), you would deal more damage shooting opponents point blank with your bow than you would with a melee weapon at almost any level where you'd have the second Monk level and enough +hit to use Power Attack effectively.

against portals you will deal more damage when meleeing

[Deathseeker]

This question seems like it fits here....anyone attempted a pally AA?

Pally 15 / Rgr 2 / Rog 3

Divine Might +6 to damage
Divine Favor +5 to damage / + 5 to hit
Zeal +10% attack speed
Rogue Haste Boost
Sneak Attack

Seems like this might be viable. Granted, smites wont work, neither will divine sacrifice, but the above alone seems to add up pretty nicely vs a 20 ranger in terms of dps. Self resist, self healing, massive saves, etc all seem to be nice complements. Melee will pretty much suck. Pally PrE's dont mesh well but maybe the HotD II for the healing amp, etc.

Anyone care to burst my bubble (ie Zeal doesn't work with ranged, or Im misreading Divine Might/Favor, etc)?

[Visty]

This question seems like it fits here....anyone attempted a pally AA?

Pally 15 / Rgr 2 / Rog 3

Divine Might +6 to damage
Divine Favor +5 to damage / + 5 to hit
Zeal +10% attack speed
Rogue Haste Boost
Sneak Attack

Seems like this might be viable. Granted, smites wont work, neither will divine sacrifice, but the above alone seems to add up pretty nicely vs a 20 ranger in terms of dps. Self resist, self healing, massive saves, etc all seem to be nice complements. Melee will pretty much suck. Pally PrE's dont mesh well but maybe the HotD II for the healing amp, etc.

Anyone care to burst my bubble (ie Zeal doesn't work with ranged, or Im misreading Divine Might/Favor, etc)?

well, the only thing this build would have above a pure ranger is the +3 tohit, rogue haste boost and the sneakattack

on the other hand the ranger has +3dmg over your version, thus making the sneak attack obsolete

[AylinIsAwesome]

A better question is: what is your obsession with Power Attack? With a build as I described you will never melee. Unless you're facing weapon type-specific DR (and a fair amount of it), you would deal more damage shooting opponents point blank with your bow than you would with a melee weapon at almost any level where you'd have the second Monk level and enough +hit to use Power Attack effectively.

A feat that is occaisionally useful > a feat you can never use.

An archer build (or Divine build for that matter) that never melees is a worthless build. If you can't even pick up a quarterstaff and hit things in melee, then you are a detriment to your party. Even arcanes should melee when the situation calls for it

And, let's face it, your anti-Combat Expertise diatribe is... bizarre. Monk multi-class divine builds routinely gear/stat for effective levels of AC without Combat Expertise. The idea that this acceptable level of AC would somehow become useless because you added +5 to it is rather strange.

You've sort of defeated your own argument here. If you already have an effective AC, why waste the stat points on qualifying for Combat Expertise when you already qualify for Power Attack? Makes absolutely no sense there.

If a stat has a lower return on value for one form of combat than other, it has an equally lower return on value even when you multiply the numbers by 3.



Again, read what you're replying to before making statements like this. I explicitly stated my figure took into account Many Shot.

You say it does, but it honestly doesn't. During Manyshot, you shoot 4 arrows at a time with a BAB of 16 or better (which you'd have through Divine Power). Considering my Archer can get to 44 STR max, while yours, max-buffed, will just get to ~30 (14 base + 6 Divine Power + 2 tome + 2 Rage + 6 Titan's Grip). That's a difference of 12 damage per shot. If you're going to "make calculations", do it with buffs on.

So 12 damage per arrow difference, with 4 arrows per shot. So 48 damage difference, if none of them miss. Also remember that Haste Boost 4 and Manyshot will stack with each other, plus all the extra damage from Weapon Specialization feats and Fighter enhancements (since you can get the Elf ones).

So if you're going to compare damage, do a real comparison, not just based on starting stats. Gives a fairer picture.

Considering that it's essentially the same Dexterity as every Kensai III Arcane Archer build I've yet seen (who put all their points into Strength), I'm not sure what you're trying to argue here.

Most builds have enough base DEX to get precise shot. In an environment where whether or not the Bard took Inspired Attack 3 is important, every bit of to-hit matters. Also, AKA builds benefit from Weapon Focus, which gives the benefits of +6 DEX for to-hit with bows. Your build does not have this.

And when you're solo, you're generally not fighting mobs that require +50 to hit.

Irrelevant. In groups you will.

I always was saying. Admittedly, I wasn't explicit,

No, you weren't.

[. . .] but you'd think that a build with 16 levels of Favored Soul that explicitly wasn't placing those points in Strength and Dexterity (which I know you read, because you went off on mindless rants about not dealing damage and not being able to hit) would rather obviously put them in Wisdom.

Since when would someone assume this? You're taking all the bow feats, chances are you're planning on making that actually matter, as in, raising your STR.

'Most' != 'all'. The fact that it is possible to make a Favored Soul with Spell Focus doesn't really support your argument that a build that doesn't take Spell Focus is crippled next to the average Favored Soul build that didn't have Spell Focus in the first place.

Crippled? No. But you can't really talk about the "average" FvS, since there's such a huge variety of different types. I guess you're meaning WIS-based ones? You'd be gimped compared to them, because a difference of 4 Spell Penetration is pretty important for spells like Energy Drain or Implosion. Admittedly you won't have either of those spells, which is confusing if you're a WIS-based FvS.

But we're not talking about 1 DC here (1 Spell Focus). We're talking about the difference of 3 DC. So you're minus 3 DC, 4 Spell Pen, and you don't have the metas to make most of your spells matter. Oh, and with only 16 FvS levels, you'll only have access to 8th level spells. So excuse me, 4 DC different when you account for Heighten. But you don't have that, so your BBs and mine have a 6 DC difference right there. And that's even if you can take all the WIS enhancements after taking all the CHA ones so you can cast, all the AA stuff, the Life Magic line, the Spell Pen line, the Toughness lines, Wand & Scroll mastery line...need I go on?

And what happens when you lose enhancement bonuses on a 10-12 Charisma Favored Soul? Oh right... you can't cast any of your worthwhile spells. You probably can't even cast a healing spell at all, since you're a FvS and FvS normally unlearn their low level healing spells once they're past using them.

You don't know much do you?

12 CHA + 2 tome + 2 capstone = 16. That's up to 6th level spells, or Mass Cure Light, Mass Cure Moderate and Heal. Plus if you have Eagle's Splendor at level 2, that's +4 up to 20...so you get Mass Cure Serious, Mass Cure Critical and Mass Heal back in less than 5 seconds.

Not to mention the fact that you're acting like its some sort of unheard-of aberration for a FvS to have an 8 Charisma - and it's somehow worse to start with an 8 Charisma if you're never planning on casting a 9th level spell.

It's an "aberration" for a "WIS-based" FvS to take only bow feats + Toughness, have no meta-magics, not have access to level 9 spells, have a below average Spell Pen...need I go on?

Let me get this straight. You have 18 levels of Fighter, and you're spending 2 points/level raising UMD to the point where you can reliably use Heal scrolls - so that you can get interrupted by whirling blades of death with your almost non-existent Concentration skill in order to throw 90 point Heal scrolls?

HA! You're funny. So you're saying you wouldn't train UMD?

Also, in a party someone can heal you in combat so you don't need tow worry about you low concentration score. The Heal scrolls would be for after combat. And when solo...ever heard of tactics? Or do you just run straight into all the enemies and hope for the best? You know, pulling one mob at a time, perching, that sort of thing? Then, you know, healing up after combat with a Heal scroll or three instead of downing 30-bajillion pots?

Given that I said neither of those things, I'll remind you again: read posts before replying to them.

Did I say you said those things?

No, I didn't? Wow...one could almost accuse you of not reading posts either...

No, those two examples were from other times I pointed out that other people had no real idea what they were talking about.

[Diib]

Correct - and for a few reasons. Including...

You not only get most of the good ranged feats free, you get good melee feats free without having to meet the normal pre-reqs.

If any more love is tossed to ranged characters, it will likely go to rangers first.

You say this, but have you tried playing through to 20 with both to be able to compare?

[AylinIsAwesome]

You say this, but have you tried playing through to 20 with both to be able to compare?

To me the biggest advantage of an AKA version is the possibility of full ranks in UMD...which is always pretty awesome.

On the melee side of things though, an AKA can pick up the full line of either TWF or THF, get Improved Critical for a melee style and still have Haste Boost 4 to use with them (which is just fun).

[Chai]

You say this, but have you tried playing through to 20 with both to be able to compare?

What you quoted are facts, not my opinion. No need to play both to 20 to know that....

1. Rangers do get most of the good ranged feats free, and also get good melee feats free without having to meet the normal pre-reqs.

2. If any more love is tossed to ranged characters, it will likely go to rangers first, which I suppose is mere speculation, but makes perfect sense, as rangers are the intended ranged class from original ADnD.

I will also add that while many people build characters to play the current content, it is good to look into the future somewhat when making decisions as well.

[Visty]

... as rangers are the intended ranged class from original ADnD.

but not in 3.5 which ddo is based on

[Chai]

but not in 3.5 which ddo is based on

Rangers are the intended ranged class for 3.5. This is not to say you cant build something esle, but it is very easy for rangers to meet the prereqs for most of the prestige archery classes in 3.5 either being pure or with a one level splash in something else. This - while also maintaining their list of granted melee feats, and other granted bow feats.

The below are all completely synergous with the ranger class and do not require much deviation in order to qualify. While a fighter would be able to MAYBE qualify for some in the same amount of time, it is unlikely they would do so and still have the same melee capabilities as a ranger at level 6 or 7 which is when you can level into most of these prestige classes. Also take note that a fighter doesnt get near as many skill points as ranger, and in PnP DnD the prestige classes require skill ranks as well as feats. A rogue or any other 3/4 or 1/2 bab class would take alot longer to level into one of the archery prestige classes.

Order of the Bow Initiate
Justice of Weald and Woe
Cragtop Archer
Peerless Archer
Arcane Archer
Deepwood Sniper

[AylinIsAwesome]

What you quoted are facts, not my opinion. No need to play both to 20 to know that....

1. Rangers do get most of the good ranged feats free, and also get good melee feats free without having to meet the normal pre-reqs.

Rangers get the following free bow feats:

Bow Strength
Rapid Shot
Many Shot
Precise Shot
Improved Precise Shot

And the following melee feats for free:

TWF
ITWF
GTWF


That's 8 feats. Pure Fighters get 11 free feats, with a two level splash (for AKA) that's still 10 so we'll go with 10 free feats. That's more than enough to pick up all those feats Rangers get for free, plus 2 more.

As for qualifying... Archers should have a good STR (for damage) and a good DEX (for to-hit). The only requirement (besides having enough feats for it) for THF is STR, and the only requirement for TWF is DEX. Any archer build should already meet the requirements for both.

2. If any more love is tossed to ranged characters, it will likely go to rangers first, which I suppose is mere speculation, but makes perfect sense, as rangers are the intended ranged class from original ADnD.

It "sort of" did, since Arcane Archer is a Ranger PrE.

[Chai]

It "sort of" did, since Arcane Archer is a Ranger PrE.

Sure. Add that onto this:

When deepwood sniper gets its higher level tiers of awesomeness, who will be getting these? I am perhaps holding my breath that this PRE will be as good or better than arcane archer in DDO.

Also, bow str requires weapon focus ranged (not on the ranger granted list) and point blank shot (not on the ranger granted list) and weapon spec ranged (the more likely of the three choices from the "needs one of" list - not on ranger granted list) - 2 of these are prereq for arcane archer anyhow, and its not like you wouldnt take weapon spec for bow as a fighter AA.

I do like fighters, as they are the "build from scratch" class, and I favor this approach. I just wish you didnt have to multi to get imbue for AA - as this eliminates the 10% capstone haste. I think a 20 fighter AA with imbue would own.

[AylinIsAwesome]

Sure. Add that onto this:

When deepwood sniper gets its higher level tiers of awesomeness, who will be getting these? I am perhaps holding my breath that this PRE will be as good or better than arcane archer in DDO.

While I would definitely like to see Deepwood Sniper get a huge buff, part of me thinks it'll end up like Hunter of the Undead is to the Paladin, or Mechanic is to the Rogue.

But yes, I do hate it when there's just one PrE to choose from for a class that has any value. Kind of related to that I wish that Rangers had two melee PrEs (Tempest and something comparable in powerlevel) and one Bow PrE (Arcane Archer) so that 98% of all the Rangers I see aren't Tempests.

Also, bow str requires weapon focus ranged (not on the ranger granted list) and point blank shot (not on the ranger granted list) and weapon spec ranged (the more likely of the three choices from the "needs one of" list - not on ranger granted list) - 2 of these are prereq for arcane archer anyhow, and its not like you wouldnt take weapon spec for bow as a fighter AA.

Weapon Spec is required for Kensei, and the whole point of going Fighter (in my opinion, anyway) is to get two Ranged PrEs at the same time.

I do like fighters, as they are the "build from scratch" class, and I favor this approach. I just wish you didnt have to multi to get imbue for AA - as this eliminates the 10% capstone haste. I think a 20 fighter AA with imbue would own.

I'm not sure I wouldn't have splashed mine anyway for full ranks in UMD. As far as I know though, the ranged alacrity bonus doesn't stack with the ToD set bonus for Arcane Archer. Though I would like the Fighter capstone for melee weapons, that's for sure.

[Chai]

But yes, I do hate it when there's just one PrE to choose from for a class that has any value. Kind of related to that I wish that Rangers had two melee PrEs (Tempest and something comparable in powerlevel) and one Bow PrE (Arcane Archer) so that 98% of all the Rangers I see aren't Tempests.

To add to this, I would like to see the whole class as a pre req done away with and just have the prestige levels be class levels like real 3.5, with feat and skill qualifications. I realize it wont happen due to enhancement lines and such but it would be nice. This adds a true unique dynamic to 3.5 where you can build on 100s of different possibilities. NWN which was alot more primitive and based on 3.0, did this.

[AylinIsAwesome]

To add to this, I would like to see the whole class as a pre req done away with and just have the prestige levels be class levels like real 3.5, with feat and skill qualifications. I realize it wont happen due to enhancement lines and such but it would be nice. This adds a true unique dynamic to 3.5 where you can build on 100s of different possibilities. NWN which was alot more primitive and based on 3.0, did this.

I honestly think it's far too late to change PrEs that much. Imagine the rebalancing issues...


After they finish all the PrEs for all the classes (I can't wait to see what the FvS are like! ), then I would like to add in MC PrEs as well. Would make for some very interesting builds.