Ranger Improvements

[Silver_Shadow]

The ranger class has multiple problems that need to be fixed. The class paths are not equal in power, or ability. Tempests are the strongest b/c they can increase their offensive and defensive abillities, from the incease number of two weapon attacks and a +2-4 sheild bonus, not to mention the feat requirements +1 AC from dodge, +4 AC when tumbling from mobility, and no attack penalties when attacking while moving from spring attack.

Arcane Archer are the second strongest b/c they are able to imbue arrow with magical elements increasing damage and get more SP for casting and from mental tougness. But they get stuck with +1 to attack with a bow from point blank shot and +1 to attack the bow from weapon focus. I think they need to have Conjure +1-5 Returning Arrows, Bolts and Throwing Weapons, Imbue Neagative Energy Missles, Arcane Barrier (+4 AC) and/or Arcane Guard (damage reduction 5/-), Arcane Aura Sheild (1/2 all spell damage) Arcane Cloak (Invisiblity) and Arcane Beam (25d6 Arcane damage lvl18 required).

Deepwood Snipers are the weakest b/c they only do extra damage when they crit, if your oppenet is not crit immune (ooze, undead, constructs,... etc) then they do normal damage. They also have the same useless feat requirements as arcane archer are stuck with execpt they need spot, hide, and move silently enhancements and they don't need mental tougness. I think they need these enhacements Deepwood Camouflage (Become invisble and can attack and interact with object till attacked or detected and you gain +4 AC while invisible), Crititcal Penatration (can bypass crit immunity and damage reduction), and Sniper Vision (+1-5 to attack and to confirm crits).

Archers have no defensive abillities for execpt spells and running away. But they can be slowed, dazed, paralysis, mezmerized, stuned...etc or they may not have any where to run. Archers can't stay in stealth while shooting,and can't access Shooting on the Run without giving up 3 feats. Ranger also get healing spells very late in the game. My solution remove point blank shot as a path requirement and replace it with Weapon Finesse and have Shooting on the Run (lvl4) and Rapid Reload (Lvl3) as a Granted Feat. Finally add Cure Minor Wound to first lvl ranger spells.

[Khurse]

Good points.
Then maybe we'll finally see some players roll up some rangers.

[dunklezhan]

Arcane Archer are the second strongest b/c they are able to imbue arrow with magical elements increasing damage and get more SP for casting and from mental tougness. But they get stuck with +1 to attack with a bow from point blank shot and +1 to attack the bow from weapon focus. I think they need to have Conjure +1-5 Returning Arrows, Bolts and Throwing Weapons, Imbue Neagative Energy Missles, Arcane Barrier (+4 AC) and/or Arcane Guard (damage reduction 5/-), Arcane Aura Sheild (1/2 all spell damage) Arcane Cloak (Invisiblity) and Arcane Beam (25d6 Arcane damage lvl18 required).

ok, I agree that Deepwood Sniper is really underpowered compared to both Tempest and AA. I agree that Tempest is quite powerful enough. I agree that AA could do with a little bit more of a boost (recent changes being really very nice ones imo). I like the suggestions up to & including the negative energy missile (though conjure throwing weapons not so much)
But 25d6 arcane damage? Arcane cloak? Aura Shield? I know its says 'arcane' on the PrE, but I think that's a bit much.

Not to say I wouldn't want to see ranged combat generally beefed up a little (maybe some better bows or item boosts rather than skills or overall ranged boosts, maybe fix the capstone so it actually does do 25% attack speed instead of being hamstrung by the reload animation, that sort of thing), but I think the shield, invisibility and beam suggestions are unnecessary and probably overpowered. However, I think all of these effects (if not names) might actually be quite well suited to improve the Deepwood, but the Arcane Archer PrE is all about improving the ranged attacks themselves, not the defensive abilities. Deepwood should also be able to fire from stealth without breaking it. But again, not the AA.

[Missing_Minds]

As you are comparing only PrEs, I am not going to bother with commentary due to the fact you are comparing completed PrEs to non completed.

[Rhinala]

The archers in the this game are completely underpowered, arches should be the ultimate caster killers.
I think that thy should have some relay deadly attacks, something that will make archers a viable part of the game.

[Aesop]

DWS need to be completed and improved.

Arcane Archer could use a couple little things added

Rangers are not the sole Archer in the group.

Ranged Combat as a whole needs to be improved and balanced

Suggestion: DWS- Tier 2 could have Improved Bow Strength added to it allowing the Bow to apply Strength and 1/2 to its damage.

DWS should also have base Ranged Damage increase (like 2 per tier) a Stacking Seeker Bonus at each tier (like 2 per tier) and an increase to the range on Point Blank Shot (like Double at tier tw oand more at tier 3)


AA could use a few more Elemental effects and static bonuses built into each tier of Returning Arrow upgrade... the elemental imbues could use a secondary bonus beside the raw damage which get overwritten as you advance.


Ranger Capstone needs to be rethought. 15% RoA increase with a static FE bonus would be better. Then add the other 10% bonus to all Ranged Attacks. Even still it may not be enough to make ranged combat effective, so the increase to all ranged attacks may need to be higher.


A Ranged version of Power Attack (I like the name Over Draw) that subtracts maybe 4 from attacks and adds 6 to damage could be nice. Make it a Stance that doesn't stack with Improved Precise Shot that way it works for Single Target Mobs (which is a point that Archers need help on... like Raid Bosses)


Many Shot makes balance didfficult because it adds too much, but only for a short amount of time. Instead take a page from the Pathfinder system and have it simply add an extra Arrow on the highest Attack bonus... maybe have it add another one later in BAB like at BAB 16 or something. This would mena in the sequence of 4 attacks you'd fire 5 arrows all the time (or 6 arrows if the balance requires a further increase at a higher BAB)


Ranged Tactical Feat should make there way into the game. I like Ranged Pin as a kind of Single Target Web effect.


There are other things that need fixin as well ... but I'm a little strapped for time right this second... and other people have a better grasp on how to impliment some of those

Aesop

[Silver_Shadow]

ok, I agree that Deepwood Sniper is really underpowered compared to both Tempest and AA. I agree that Tempest is quite powerful enough. I agree that AA could do with a little bit more of a boost (recent changes being really very nice ones imo). I like the suggestions up to & including the negative energy missile (though conjure throwing weapons not so much)
But 25d6 arcane damage? Arcane cloak? Aura Shield? I know its says 'arcane' on the PrE, but I think that's a bit much.

Not to say I wouldn't want to see ranged combat generally beefed up a little (maybe some better bows or item boosts rather than skills or overall ranged boosts, maybe fix the capstone so it actually does do 25% attack speed instead of being hamstrung by the reload animation, that sort of thing), but I think the shield, invisibility and beam suggestions are unnecessary and probably overpowered. However, I think all of these effects (if not names) might actually be quite well suited to improve the Deepwood, but the Arcane Archer PrE is all about improving the ranged attacks themselves, not the defensive abilities. Deepwood should also be able to fire from stealth without breaking it. But again, not the AA.

I only mentioned the returning bolts and throwing weapons because some rangers like to use crossbows or throwing weapons. I may have have gone a little crazy with AA because I love to cast and to have spell for every situation. Also AA never seem that arcane to me they more like Divine Archer. They need some arcane spell and/or abillities. I was also thinking about an AOE for AA.

[Silver_Shadow]

As you are comparing only PrEs, I am not going to bother with commentary due to the fact you are comparing completed PrEs to non completed.

The PrEs may be completed or incomplete but you can clearly see the fact they are flawed and still needs work. Plus who would want to play a class with a incomplete PrEs.

[Visty]

The PrEs may be completed or incomplete but you can clearly see the fact they are flawed and still needs work. Plus who would want to play a class with a incomplete PrEs.

so youre saying noone plays clerics, bards, rangers, fav souls, wizards, sorcs, monks and rogues?

[Silver_Shadow]

DWS need to be completed and improved.

Arcane Archer could use a couple little things added

Rangers are not the sole Archer in the group.

Ranged Combat as a whole needs to be improved and balanced

Suggestion: DWS- Tier 2 could have Improved Bow Strength added to it allowing the Bow to apply Strength and 1/2 to its damage.

DWS should also have base Ranged Damage increase (like 2 per tier) a Stacking Seeker Bonus at each tier (like 2 per tier) and an increase to the range on Point Blank Shot (like Double at tier tw oand more at tier 3)


AA could use a few more Elemental effects and static bonuses built into each tier of Returning Arrow upgrade... the elemental imbues could use a secondary bonus beside the raw damage which get overwritten as you advance.


Ranger Capstone needs to be rethought. 15% RoA increase with a static FE bonus would be better. Then add the other 10% bonus to all Ranged Attacks. Even still it may not be enough to make ranged combat effective, so the increase to all ranged attacks may need to be higher.


A Ranged version of Power Attack (I like the name Over Draw) that subtracts maybe 4 from attacks and adds 6 to damage could be nice. Make it a Stance that doesn't stack with Improved Precise Shot that way it works for Single Target Mobs (which is a point that Archers need help on... like Raid Bosses)


Many Shot makes balance didfficult because it adds too much, but only for a short amount of time. Instead take a page from the Pathfinder system and have it simply add an extra Arrow on the highest Attack bonus... maybe have it add another one later in BAB like at BAB 16 or something. This would mena in the sequence of 4 attacks you'd fire 5 arrows all the time (or 6 arrows if the balance requires a further increase at a higher BAB)


Ranged Tactical Feat should make there way into the game. I like Ranged Pin as a kind of Single Target Web effect.


There are other things that need fixin as well ... but I'm a little strapped for time right this second... and other people have a better grasp on how to impliment some of those

Aesop

I like your Improved Bow Strenght, Ranged Pin and OverDraw clever ideas. I agree with you when said ranged comat as a whole needs to be improved. I was thinking have ranged versions of Stunning Blow, Power Attack, Trip, Sunder and Sap or arrow bolts or throwing weapons that cause these effects. Perhaps an Improved and Greater Point Blank Shot (+# to attack and damage when target is in 30 feet). I also so think Many Shot needs to be adjusted maybe it should last longer and each arrow does 1/5 less damage than a normal.

[Silver_Shadow]

so youre saying noone plays clerics, bards, rangers, fav souls, wizards, sorcs, monks and rogues?

No, I am saying if you had the choice to play with a class with incomplete PrEs or complete PrEs why would you play the incomplete one if you going to be at a disadvantage? If you could a class with completed PrEs why wouldn't you?

[gavagai]

No, I am saying if you had the choice to play with a class with incomplete PrEs or complete PrEs why would you play the incomplete one if you going to be at a disadvantage? If you could a class with completed PrEs why wouldn't you?

Of course we want to see all the ranger PrEs out there. But if you look at it generally, Rangers have two full lines to pick from, and 1 first tier on the third line. Only Paladins have more options available.

Fighters only have 2 full lines - Kensai and Stalwart
Barbs only have 1 full line - Frenzied Berserker
Bards have 3 PrEs with the first-tier only - Warchanter, Spellsinger, and Virtuoso
Rogues have 1 full line and two second-tier lines -- Assassin, Acrobat, Mechanic
Wizards have Pale Master

Clerics have 0
Sorcerers have 0
Favored Souls have 0
Monks have 0

I think Aesop is spot on -- first fix ranged combat in general, then worry about specific PrEs.

Also don't expect ranged PrEs to do as much sustained damage as melee Tempests, or have as much AC. The tempest needs the AC because he's in the middle of things getting whacked. An archer's best defense is maneuverability and distance. For the same reason, damage would be less.

I could see, however, something like 6d6 or 10d6 damage Sneak Attack damage per shot on a Sniper.

[daniel7]

Well obviously deepwood sniper II and III need to come out to be balanced. We discussed some suggestions in a post last year.

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=206970

[SkyCry]

What all archers really need FIRST is to increase bow attack speed to MATCH the melee speed, as per PnP rules (with Rapid Shot feat, of course). Currently archers fire considerably slower than even single weapon melee fighters. Of course they don't even come close to dual wielders.

[dunklezhan]

Currently archers fire considerably slower than even single weapon melee fighters.

This.

No-one disputes (I think) that one handed wielders should do less damage than THF and swing less often than TWF (and thus less damage also). It seems a clearly fair approach to me: someone going sword and board is probably doing so for defensive, not offensive reasons (or are out of Spell Points... ), so its no detriment to them if the THF/TWF are dishing out more damage. So why is it a problem for a ranged attacker to be comparable to the single weapon wielder, attack speed wise? They are attacking at range, it could be argued also for defensive reasons (certainly there are defensive benefits, like, say, not getting hit in the first place... ). The DPS doesn't need to be up there with a specialised melee TWF, but I'd say the damage per attack should be comparable to a THF, and the attack speed comparable with a single weapon wielder.

That would seem to me to be the right level of 'balance': attack speed= single handed and damage per attack = THF.

EDIT: sorry, I've just realised that level of balance is utter nonsense. THF attack slower than one handed, and dish out huge damage. Stupid me. Try attack speed= single handed, damage output also = single handed - but a single handed *specialist*, not just someone with a base level.

Whatever the balance point is, its not where it currently is. That should be prioritised for a fix before any further tweaks to the two 'completed' Ranger PrE's.

Deepwood sniper does need some love, its true. But its equally true that there are so many classes with no PrE at all that I don't think, now they've boosted AA that Rangers can complain too much. I say this as someone trying to level an AA now and in the full knowledge that ranged is generally pretty broken. Pretty much if they better balanced ranged generally, the PrEs Rangers have already got would look even sweeter.

[Rhinala]

In opinion one of the things that the archer is missing is usable skills, like pin down, daze, Rain of Arrows, have a nasty attack skill, ability to set traps without using spell points.
The damage that an archer do is minimal, it have a very slow attack speed and week damage output, i think a bow should have 1d10 with a high armor penetration.
A ranger should be master of crowd control and a counter of the arcane caster.

[Robi3.0]

Trying to fix ranged combat by focusing solely on one class and it's PrEs is bad game design. Ranged combat is broken not the Ranger class.

[Rhinala]

Trying to fix ranged combat by focusing solely on one class and it's PrEs is bad game design. Ranged combat is broken not the Ranger class.

I think the best way is to enhance the ranged wep damage and add ranged feats, in this way anyone who want to have benefit from it can do so.