Remove/Replace Fortification.

[Tarnoc]

How do you know that? Are you watching Borror 24/7 to confirm there is no gameplay?

guild log in dates

[Emili]

...
"Fortification" is already attached to Armor Class. The greater your Armor Class is, the less likely monsters are to make their critical hit confirmation roll. The existence of Fortification, whether it is as a bonus to AC against confirmation rolls or like it is now, is meant to help the low AC characters.
...

No as it stand Fortification works on all characters ... AC nad non-AC currently cannot be crit. Sure the non-AC character gets hit but it does not get crit.

If the character that has zero investment in Armor Class ends up being a bad build, then he'll have to invest some more in it: reserve a few item slots for AC, invest points in Dexterity, etc. That's not a bad thing, honestly. It just means that AC matters a little now.

You've obviously do not play the game. Their issue is more then a few points in dex, dodge, some items, etc... Go look at builds on the forums and see what the differences are between an AC builds and some DPS focus'd builds.

It's impossible for all possible builds to be good. Asking for that to be the case is asking for an unreasonable standard.

It's only if a class becomes underpowered because of this.

... If you attach fortification to AC - then it would be just as right-sized to attach the sundering of fotification to the DPS end of it... the level of fort you have based on AC and the level of fort you may debuff on the mob based on your DPS output... that way the High AC has his fort but may not be as good at making the mob critable ... and the DPS build can make the mob critable but has no fort. Simple.

[Aaxeyu]

You've obviously do not play the game. Their issue is more then a few points in dex, dodge, some items, etc... Go look at builds on the forums and see what the differences are between an AC builds and some DPS focus'd builds.

Ever stopped to wonder why there is such a big difference?
It's not because the DPS builds CAN'T get high AC, it's because DPS builds don't get much out of having high AC.
That is escpecially true now with epic.

The Monster for example could probably reach ~80AC fully geared and buffed.

[Borror0]

guild log in dates

Alandale kicked me out of IFV back in September. If you were all knowing about my gaming habits, you should know that much.

[Borror0]

Go look at builds on the forums and see what the differences are between an AC builds and some DPS focus'd builds.

Like Aaxeyu said (OMG, did I just say that?), the problem isn't that DPS builds can't reach at least reasonable Armor Class; it's that it's not worth the effort. That's completely different. After a change like this, what is or isn't the best spec will change and increasing your AC will have some reward. That's the objective. It does not mean that the DPS are doomed. It just means that they will have to focus on more than just HP, saves and DPS for once.

[Duncani_Daho]

That's right. Remove it. It's illogical, and causes more grief to those who don't wear heavy fort then it helps overall. It also causes unbalance in the game, because your expected to have it no matter what in the higher levels. Lower levels are more fun because of unexpected critical hits, causing those "Oh sh##!" moments. Instead of limiting the amount of crits, increase them, and increase the ways to increase a chance for a critical hit, etc. For example, increase the chance to score a critical hit if your attack counts as a sneak attack.


Replace it with something that makes more sense. Do not ever grant 100% immunity from critical hits, and don't include sneak attacks with it, those are completely different.

Seem like a radical idea? Because, it is. But it's for the better, I swear.

** However, I suppose that's a bit too radical for a game that is trying to stick to an already made set of rules. Even if I think those rules are...obsolete. I suppose it's better for this game, with it's unique standing, that fortification stays in. It's still needs to be tweaked tho, to allow for more versatility, and fun.**

Interesting thread. I was browsing the DDO forums when I saw your post Kromize. I believe there is an easy solution: instead of waiting for any Dev changes to the gaming mechanic for fortification, you could get the challenge you seek and oh*sh*t! moments galore by joining a permadeath guild.

Most permadeath guilds have rules about limiting the ways their characters can acquire gear. In The Core (on Khyber) we keep it simple: you can get items by looting chests, receiving quest rewards, and by turning in collectibles to NPC's.

It means your level 11 stalwart defender may or may not have anything more than LIGHT fortification heading into The Spawn of Whisperdoom or Ghola-fan. That pretty much guarantees challenge and excitement. It's not purely theoretical, a dashing drow swordsman called Modunaiho has been questing and fighting duergar in Sykros's Jewel and Reclamation out in Ataraxia's Haven with no moderate nor heavy fortification. And he still wields the Nicked Shortsword from the Sharn Syndicate from time to time. Always looking for better, always seeking an upgrade, it's an adventure...

Check out our ruleset and send a tell if you want to be invited. We completed the new Blood Tide quests in House Deneith and I believe that is about as much fun as one can have playing a computer game.

Movan,
thecorehc.home.comcast.net

[Maxtrenth]

For those of you whining about fortification, heavy fort is a necessity in both DDO and the table top game. If you don't want to use it fine, but don't try to take away my ability because you think it's overdone or expected. It doesn't unbalance the game because there are a TON of monsters that are immune to crits and this gives the players that ability as well. Some of the compliant topics I see posted on here make NO sense whatsoever......

[Aaxeyu]

For those of you whining about fortification, heavy fort is a necessity in both DDO and the table top game. If you don't want to use it fine, but don't try to take away my ability because you think it's overdone or expected. It doesn't unbalance the game because there are a TON of monsters that are immune to crits and this gives the players that ability as well. Some of the compliant topics I see posted on here make NO sense whatsoever......

Why not add 100% fort in the heroic durability feat then? Or remove the ability for monsters to score critical hits?

[Tarnoc]

Alandale kicked me out of IFV back in September. If you were all knowing about my gaming habits, you should know that much.

and up to that point you had logged in like twice and ran one shroud or vision with us....yet have had 1000s of posts on the forums of change this.... do that....alot to comment for someone who till sept 2009 since the shroud came out had logged in twice.....

you do know that a lvl 17 toon cannot get in epic?list your toons names if you have a lvl 20 whos actually been in epic....

[Emili]

Ever stopped to wonder why there is such a big difference?
It's not because the DPS builds CAN'T get high AC, it's because DPS builds don't get much out of having high AC.
That is escpecially true now with epic.

The Monster for example could probably reach ~80AC fully geared and buffed.

For sure a Monster already has a 26 dex and is a Monk splash and dodge and itemized with AC gear stands at 53 ... and yes one may push a fully raid buff monster even past 80 when all it is doing is turtling and tumbling... no longer doing any DPS.

Monster AC Breakdown:
10 Base
8 dex
6 Wis
9 Plating + dragontouched
5 deflection
1 Monk
3 chatter ring
1 ritual
4 insight
1 Dodge
2 tempest
1 TWD
2 chaosgarde

53 - unbuffed nothing but gear and feats - did I miss anything?

1 haste
2 shield spell
4 madstone

60 - self buffed/boosted - Utilizing madstone (getting hit)

1 barkskin
4 bard song
5 Aura
2 recitation
1 Wisdom (Yugoloth pot)
1 Dex (Yugoloth pot)

74 - with all buffs <- requiring a pally, bard, a ranger in group beside the cleric

2 defensive fighting
2 blocking
4 tumbling

82 - Full AC mode <- note at this point the build is no longer fighting

Now an AC build ...

AC
10 base
6 max dex bonus(7) allowed (with 1 more dex I can get 7)
15 armor (dragontouch)
9 Tower shield (levik's defender)
5 Protection item (deflection bonus)
4 insight (dragontouch armor) (misc bonus)
2 chaos bracers (dodge bonus)
4 stalwart defender stance (dodge bonus)
1 shield alchemical (dodge bonus)
1 armor alchemical (dodge bonus)
5 combat expertise (feat Bonus)
1 dodge (Feat Bonus)
3 stalwart defender (Feat bonus)

66 standing, unbuffed with shield, 71 blocking

1 haste
5 ranger barkskin
5 pally aura
4 bard song
4 armor class boost
2 recitation

87 standing, 93 blocking <- hey this character is still swinging with 87 AC.

In comparison the high AC focus'd builds stand at 63+ and are also still fighting at mid 80 and blocking near 92 AC. Some turtled AC builds breach 100+... Where is the difference?

You, I and everyone who has ever built both know... It's the PrEs - Monster is a Kensai, It's not a Defender ... the Defender get's AC, DR and Strength in PrE while a Kensai does not - in order for Monster to attain that AC to must increase Int to grab CE and be turned into a defender at which point it is another of the same AC build.

So you all wonder why Epic mob hit back at 80 AC? It's because it's Epic and in those rights have to give the 80 AC fighting melee some challenge for it's effort. The 80 AC character does not get knocked arround in Epic... You'll see misses shall you look at your logs... Most however are ticked off because they think they should be impervious. In contrast the DPS get knocked arround because they're in the 70's while fighting in epic and taking many more hits.

I said before in a previous post the AC build stand easily 10+ AC higher unbuffed then the non-AC build even when the non-AC character pinches pennies for some AC ... something it cannot catch up without actually fully becoming anymore the AC build.

I know this for fact ... I have a human Kensai III with dodge, CE even mobility and a 24 dex and carrying gear for both roles. Shall you scain my posts on fighter and human forums I b1tch about trying to maintain my AC as a dual role all the bloody time. She runs enhancement thin Armour mastery II ... is not dwarf not halfling for a point here or there, I have to swap so much gear to support either roles and even then am pushing 10+ shy of what a dedicated AC build may do... People's recommendations to me have always been - drop the second (AC) role.

[Tarnoc]

Sure a Monster has a 26 dex and a Monk splash and dodge and is itemized stands at 53 ... and yes one may push a fully raid buffed monster past 80 when all it is doing is turtling and tumbling.

Monster AC Breakdown:
10 Base
8 dex
6 Wis
9 Plating + dragontouched
5 deflection
1 Monk
3 chatter ring
1 ritual
4 insight
1 Dodge
2 tempest
1 TWD
2 chaosgarde

53 - unbuffed nothing but gear and feats - did I miss anything?

1 haste
2 shield spell
4 madstone

60 - self buffed/boosted - the average fluctuating AC of madstone length

1 barkskin
4 bard song
5 Aura
2 recitation
1 Wisdom (Yugoloth pot)
1 Dex (Yugoloth pot)

74 - with all buffs <- requiring a pally, bard, a ranger in group beside the cleric

2 defensive fighting
2 blocking
4 tumbling

82 - Full AC mode <- note at this point the build is no longer fighting

In comparison the high AC focus'd builds stand at 60+ and fight at mid 80 to near 90 AC and turtles near 100... and so you all wonder why Epic mob hit back at 80 AC? It's because it's Epic and in those rights have to give the 80 AC fighting melee some challenge for it's effort. I said before in a previos post the AC build stand 10+ AC higher unbuffed then the non-AC build... something it cannot catch up without actually fully becoming the AC build.

so im curious on how you calculated mob ac???can not the devs just place a value thier??and they do??

[Aaxeyu]

Sure a Monster has a 26 dex and a Monk splash and dodge and is itemized stands at 53 ... and yes one may push a fully raid buffed monster past 80 when all it is doing is turtling and tumbling.

Monster AC Breakdown:
10 Base
8 dex
6 Wis
9 Plating + dragontouched
5 deflection
1 Monk
3 chatter ring
1 ritual
4 insight
1 Dodge
2 tempest
1 TWD
2 chaosgarde

53 - unbuffed nothing but gear and feats - did I miss anything?

1 haste
2 shield spell
4 madstone

60 - self buffed/boosted - the average fluctuating AC of madstone length

1 barkskin
4 bard song
5 Aura
2 recitation
1 Wisdom (Yugoloth pot)
1 Dex (Yugoloth pot)

74 - with all buffs <- requiring a pally, bard, a ranger in group beside the cleric

2 defensive fighting
2 blocking
4 tumbling

82 - Full AC mode <- note at this point the build is no longer fighting

In comparison the high AC focus'd builds stand at 60+ and fight at mid 80 to near 90 AC and turtles near 100... and so you all wonder why Epic mob hit back at 80 AC? It's because it's Epic and in those rights have to give the 80 AC fighting melee some challenge for it's effort.

That AC breakdown has not been updated for like 6 months. However, my point was simply that you can get high AC if you aim for it. People have low AC because they don't care about it.

There is obviously gonna be differences between AC and DPS builds, but give the DPS build an item that gives a bonus VS crit confirms and his AC is not wasted.

[Emili]

That AC breakdown has not been updated for like 6 months. However, my point was simply that you can get high AC if you aim for it. People have low AC because they don't care about it.

There is obviously gonna be differences between AC and DPS builds, but give the DPS build an item that gives a bonus VS crit confirms and his AC is not wasted.

So replace the DT with red scale and add some epic gear on both - what do you get? It's not 10+ points of AC I'd wager that.

Now why do you think the AC on an AC build is currently wasted?

Fact - AC builds do not get pounded like the DPS build get pounded in Epic. Yes they get hit but they get hit a lot less... Play both in Epic. The DPS get hit all the time because while in fighting mode they have no reasonable AC.

[Emili]

so im curious on how you calculated mob ac???can not the devs just place a value thier??and they do??

I did not calculate mob AC those are build AC's with their build break down and standard gear grind items. If you wish me to calculate mob AC that is done by testing the mob - i.e. a threnal fire giant champ has 41ac - how do we know? You take a character to it and fight it and look through combat log for where the misses and hits occur.

[Aaxeyu]

Now why do you think the AC on an AC build is currently wasted?

Fact - AC builds do not get pounded like the DPS build get pounded in Epic. Yes they get hit but they get hit a lot less... Play both in Epic. The DPS get hit all the time because while in fighting mode they have no reasonable AC.

Hm perhaps I worded it poorly, but what I meant was that any AC on a DPS build is currently wasted.

Theoreticly, lets say an AC tank needs 100 AC to not get hit so much. Shouldn't a DPS focused build with decent ac (around 80) be able to survive more hits than a DPS build who have completely ignored AC?
All else equal ofcourse.

[Emili]

Hm perhaps I worded it poorly, but what I meant was that any AC on a DPS build is currently wasted.

Theoreticly, lets say an AC tank needs 100 AC to not get hit so much. Shouldn't a DPS focused build with decent ac (around 80) be able to survive more hits than a DPS build who have completely ignored AC?
All else equal ofcourse.

Again I'd like to ask where do you think that 80 AC is comming from? Epic items? Feats? Show me an itemized DPS build with 80 sustained fighting AC in every basic class... then I would like you to show me where Pure or tier III PrE's stand or a Berzerker stand or a Warchanter stand or shall they not be viable survivable builds? Is the scope of this to take away Diversity?

Hey, here are some other ideas - granulate some other game features...

Why not let your "To-Hit" over the mob AC count for extra damage the less you clear the mob AC the less damage you do the more you cleared the mob AC the more damage you may do?

Why not scale evasion to reflex save - You only saved by a 1 this time so you take a little damage anyway?

[hermespan]

I lol'd.

Fortification in this game is a thing that players refer to as a must have, and that, in my honest opinion, should never occur in a game.

At least remove 100% fortification, and go to a max of 50%

Then prepare for the fun of complete end game re-balancing and impossible to complete quests.

After all that pain, and rebalancing, we're right back to where we were, only now moderate fort is the "must-have".

No thanks. End game is tough enough already. If it's not hard enough for you, do the quests on epic. Something like this would just waste the devs time and delay new content, and new content is what we really need. We don't need the devs spinning their wheels rebalancing and nerfing things that aren't broken, which work the way they are supposed to. That's an exercise in futility.

Something that would make more sense is to remove static rewards with heavy fort and decrease the drop rate on heavy fort items. Of course the problem with this is it would lock a lot of people out of end game, especially newer players and casual players that don't have time to grind loot.

They've solved the percieved problem with heavy fort already. It's called "epic". Epic quests do the same thing removing heavy fort would, and that's run the healers out of mana quicker.

Another entirely separate issue with this idea is that now the healers would need to quadruple the amount of money they spend on wands and scrolls so they don't run out of mana.

That's JUST what they need.

[Aaxeyu]

Again I'd like to ask where do you think that 80 AC is comming from? Epic items? Feats? Show me an itemized DPS build with 80 sustained fighting AC in every basic class... then I would like you to show me where Pure or tier III PrE's stand or a Berzerker stand or a Warchanter stand or shall they not be viable survivable builds? Is the scope of this to take away Diversity?

Hey, here are some other ideas - granulate some other game features...

Why not let your "To-Hit" over the mob AC count for extra damage the less you clear the mob AC the less damage you do the more you cleared the mob AC the more damage you may do?

Why not scale evasion to reflex save - You only saved by a 1 this time so you take a little damage anyway?

You completely missed the point. I won't bother explaining it again.
Cya

[Vhlad]

Like Aaxeyu said (OMG, did I just say that?), the problem isn't that DPS builds can't reach at least reasonable Armor Class; it's that it's not worth the effort. That's completely different. After a change like this, what is or isn't the best spec will change and increasing your AC will have some reward. That's the objective. It does not mean that the DPS are doomed. It just means that they will have to focus on more than just HP, saves and DPS for once.

You're wrong. DPS builds cannot reach a reasonable armor class because we use a d20 to-hit system and the AC difference between certain races & classes or class combos is well above 20.

Take my pure ranger for example,
http://my.ddo.com/character/thelanis/vhlader/
His DT armor has dodge +3 & +1 alchemical, 1 weapon has insight 4, his helm has prot +5, he has native +4 shield AC from tempest III, +1 from dodge feat, +1 from two weapon defense feat, 2 armor mastery enhancements, +dex enhancements and items, and if I swap bracers to chaosguardes for +2 dodge he will be sitting at 48 AC. This is a character that has already invested on more than just hp, saves, and DPS, but his AC is still irrelevant end-game. Unless A_D's suggestion gave +50AC against the crit confirmation roll, this character will effectively go down to 0% fort.

Even more extreme is to look at a pure sorc, wizard, cleric, favored soul, barbarian, THF bard, THF hotd or kotc paladin, or THF kensai fighter. Certain classes and race combos simply cannot get AC within 20 of other classes and race combos. In SRD d20, this was balanced via iterative attack penalties (increasing the range of helpful AC) and by adding heavy fort to the game (which most DMs used, because the luck factor of being critically hit and killed is generally not fun for the players: it leads to mutually assured destruction, i.e. they quit your game).

Your solution is to say, fine, lets keep the reversed attack bonus system in DDO (+5, +10, etc instead of -5, -10, etc), lets keep all the inflated items & enhancements that increase the AC differential beyond what was in the SRD, and then lets tie fortification to AC as an anti-seeker bonus so that the range of useful AC is increased. Yeah sure, technically the range of useful AC is increased, but in practise the differential is still too high and what we have is a whole bunch of class/race combos that become obsolete and unfun to play. You'll end up with monk splashes becoming almost universal, new players being totally wrecked end-game because they don't have the grind/raid intensive AC gear, and gear selection looking identical for almost every build and slot.

That is, unless we totally change the way we play and only do quests if we have a dedicated tank, and use threat reduction to manage aggro on our now super squishy casters/DPS. Great idea, except many mobs reset aggro, shift aggro, cleave, and standing around waiting for a tank before every battle is not fun. I tried it as a HOX (squishy melee DPS in age of conan). It wasn't fun, and ultimately I returned to DDO. If you turn DDO into WoW style holy trinity combat, DDO will lose, because WoW has more money and does WoW style things better.

[gavagai]

You're wrong. DPS builds cannot reach a reasonable armor class because we use a d20 to-hit system and the AC difference between certain races & classes or class combos is well above 20.

Take my pure ranger for example,

His DT armor has dodge +3, 1 weapon has insight 4, his helm has prot +5, he has native +4 shield AC from tempest III, +1 from dodge feat, +1 from two weapon defense feat, 2 armor mastery enhancements, and if I swap bracers to chaosguardes for +2 dodge he will be sitting at 48 AC. This is a character that has already invested on more than just hp, saves, and DPS, but his AC is still irrelevant end-game.

+5 with Barkskin
+4 Bard
+2 Recitation

That's already 59.

Add +20 fort item: 79.

Nothing else (pallies, pots, &c.)

That's not terrible, actually.

The idea is that it would become "reasonable" to stretch for a little more AC when possible; though of course extreme AC dumped builds would becomes relatively "unreasonable."