Remove/Replace Fortification.

[sephiroth1084]

http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p...1&postcount=23

I'm sure you've read it hundreds of time before. It's been posted and reposted in many threads for a year and a half by now.

Oh, yeah, I've read that several times, and I think I've commented on that suggestion before. May do so again, but heading to play some of the game itself now.

Chances it's you that is agreeing with AD rather than AD agreeing with you.

Eh. We are agreeing with each other. Sometimes he made a comment I agreed with, and sometimes the reverse was the case. Anyway, it doesn't matter; I was just foolin' a bit.

[Emili]

Already have that my guy is slow or maybe thats the cleric hidden negative speed enhancement.



Yup



Nothing we can do for the barb or monk other than pick up their stones when we catch up to them, because they got surrounded and critted by a bunch of bats..

LOL... the monk and the barb are quite self-suficient - you do forget they run this quest at least 100 times before and most likely alone .... I know my monk and barb can .... but the cleric in the back - he have to walk thru the fodder complaining why his class is so slow in comparison - this game is won with speed, speed of 14 minute coal, speed of a 20 min shroud - waiting on the character in the back to catch up ... slows the works down... the previous post I answered to asked for that gap to be even wider.

[Emili]

http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p...1&postcount=23

I'm sure you've read it hundreds of time before. It's been posted and reposted in many threads for a year and a half by now.

Chances it's you that is agreeing with AD rather than AD agreeing with you.

I've read it ... and I somewhat disagree with the tie of fort to AC - particular reasoning here is simply put... the tank become impervious while those who hone weapon skill become fodder...

Examine the AC differences...

• Defender III - typically turtled down are amply hitting 80 AC, even in TWF mode about 60
• Kensai III - in contrast in TWF mode is scraping to 'bout 50 and then if turtled with shield in the squeeking into 70's with the best total gear...

• KOTC III - twf - AC? well one must be fitting evil outsiders for the perk now must they not?
• Syberious - even twf the disperisty is higher then KOTC

Contrast - is many PrE's deny being in ball park within the AC ranges... a range of 10 is actually 50% on a 20 - the mean... by right one would naturally say then a Kensai should be 50% better with it's weapon then defender... KOTC should be 50% better on killing evil outsiders then Syberious... etc... This is not so though because the devs realize if they put that much disparity in the number feedback to players on their "fun" the beating of mob many players would be so discontent... AC is indeed broken - but it is broken in design of PrE and cross classes...

Berzerker - what AC do you suppose most attain? Will any relivance be placed upon their loss of fort in support of the DPS they may deliver?

Warchanter - what AC do you suppose be the average here?

Rangers - I do not even wish to go here in comparing how broken Tempest/Monk synergy for little give up...

Sorc - How do you tell them - no fort for you?

Facts ... tying fort to AC penalizes certain builds where AC is hard to come by... Maybe the devs can answer such by putting the DPS gap between such PrE's as Kensai vs Defender as 50% more on average damage output for Kensai? Do you suppose then both would be on even keel? No of course not...

So we have mob who need to be able to pound on 80 AC and make it not some god stat ... it leaves those without 80 AC even more vulnerable and now you wish to tag that 80 AC with meaningful fort and remove it totally from those without AC... and then tout that the mob damage shall be lowered ... so the 80AC get's hit less?

Tying one broken system to another broken system does not seem to me a wise solution? convince me otherwise... how does this help the Berzerker, the Warchanter, etc...

[Borror0]

how does this help the Berzerker, the Warchanter, etc...

http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p...6&postcount=81

[Vhlad]

http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p...6&postcount=81

I don't think turning DDO into a holy trinity type MMO is a good thing. It's nice to be able to have aggro on a sorc, or a barb. It would not be fun to play these classes if they're 1-shotted all the time.

Changing the game as A_D suggests to force a high critical hit rate against low AC characters would drastically alter the way the game is played, and/or how characters are designed & geared out, and in an unfun way IMO.

I see his suggestion reducing diversity. You are reducing the number of builds and classes suitable to have aggro and you are limiting itemization options: As it stands now, you can fill 1 item slot with heavy fort and have your choice of what to put in the other slots. If fort was replaced by a bonus to AC on confirmation rolls, characters would want to fill more slots with AC gear: Dodge 2, dodge 3, high AC armor, pro 5 or 6, exceptional bonuses to wis/dex, insight AC, etc would all become near mandatory to get that AC bonus on confirmation rolls high enough to emulate heavy fortification. Filling these slots would also be depressing, because the AC itself would do nothing for you end-game beyond fort emulation, as all the monsters in epic will be hitting you on 19/20 swings anyway.

Unless having 100% fort is re-balanced to no longer be essential in end-game content, you're reducing the appealing itemization options. As it stands, we cannot adapt or react in real-time to wide varying fluctuations in damage taken in raids as a result of critical hits with the current levels of DPS lag. We must heal blindly, and for us to handle taking semi-randomized huge spikes of damage in a raid setting requires a much more responsive and DPS lag free environment. When was the last time you raided TOD, epic DQ, & epic velah Borror0?

I like the idea of making AC more meaningful, but bonding AC and fortification so closely together is IMO a mistake. It severely punishes certain classes, builds, lower player skill levels, and party combinations well beyond what I would consider reasonable. It seems to pigeonhole all levels of gameplay moreso relative to what we see currently. Yes there is a trend toward maxing damage and HP, but super high AC builds & intim tanks are still feasible and widely used. Who's going to want to play a nuke spec sorc, wizard, cleric, fvs, or frenzy barb (or similar low AC DPS) if they're 1-shotted every time they get aggro on epic? In fact, the current AC gear & builds are so raid/grind oriented to obtain that such a change would IMO make end-game content a terribly unfun and resource intensive experience for new players, and increase the amount of myddo prejudice they face when trying to join groups.

[QuantumFX]

Once again, making “fortification” into the antonym of “seeker” continues to do nothing to address the fact that many characters will not be able to reach a AC capable of any mitigation even with a +50 bonus. These characters are not just limited to barbarians. Making casters into even more fragile “glass cannons” makes the solution a fail.

Having AC debuffs also affect fortification seems to be a step in the right direction but does nothing to correct the main problem with crits. Overkill damage. While random “oh $#!*!” moments are fun “*Ding* You died. *Ding* You died. *Ding* You died. *Ding* You died. *Ding* You died.” situations aren’t fun.

IMO if you’re going to fiddle around with percentages you might as well make the percentage simply reduce the extra damage from crits/sneak. This makes lower forms of fortification useful, removes the ******** “all or nothing” aspect of fortification and maintains the added draw to using AC debuffs.

[Angelus_dead]

many characters will not be able to reach a AC capable of any mitigation even with a +50 bonus. These characters are not just limited to barbarians. Making casters into even more fragile “glass cannons” makes the solution a fail.

For spellcasters to be less able to reliably survive monster attacks is an intentional benefit of the suggestion.

[sephiroth1084]

I agree with the above posters: tying fortification to AC just won't work...at least not unless we're also fixing the AC system to make a much wider range available. Even then, if we have an AC range of 30-90, those at 30 may be avoiding an attack here and there, but the rest of the time they'll likely be getting crit almost all the time, while the high-AC characters never will.

That increases the stock of AC dramatically, but I'm not sure if this many disparate stats should be tied together in such a tenuous way.

[Angelus_dead]

I see his suggestion reducing diversity. You are reducing the number of builds and classes suitable to have aggro and you are limiting itemization options

The first thing to look at is the number of builds suitable to participate in the game.

As it stands now, you can fill 1 item slot with heavy fort and have your choice of what to put in the other slots.

Heavy fort takes much less than one slot. The item will have other good features on it.

Unless having 100% fort is re-balanced to no longer be essential in end-game content, you're reducing the appealing itemization options. As it stands, we cannot adapt or react in real-time to wide varying fluctuations in damage taken in raids as a result of critical hits with the current levels of DPS lag. We must heal blindly, and for us to handle taking semi-randomized huge spikes of damage in a raid setting requires a much more responsive and DPS lag free environment. When was the last time you raided TOD, epic DQ, & epic velah Borror0?

To design the combat rules on the assumption that lag will be preventing players from observing the events of the encounter in a timely fashion would be stupid.

DPS lag is an enormous problem that must be fixed. It would be a major failure to take it as a given for the rule mechanics.

[Vhlad]

DPS lag is an enormous problem that must be fixed. It would be a major failure to take it as a given for the rule mechanics.

Wouldn't it be great if they addressed that first, rather than contemplate sweeping changes to fortification mechanics & mob balancing?

No wait, maybe that's their grand plan. Fix DPS lag by removing DPS! No more lag if everyone is dead, woohoo!

[weyoun]

I edited nothing. There are no "good numbers".

If heavy fort is +10 AC vs confirmation, then the only people who will use it will be super high AC tanks that probably don't need it...people who don't care about AC now won't start, because they can't get it high enough to matter, and adding +10 to jack squat still leaves you with jack squat.

If heavy fort is:
+10 = meaningless, nobody will use it.
+25 = People with garbage AC still won't benefit from it, people with middling AC (all 3 of them) will see some help, people with huge AC will become immune to crits.
+50 = uber powerful, and everybody uses it; exactly as it is today.

How is your system even a tiny bit of an improvement over the current one?


Because that goes nowhere. Monsters with +50 to hit are not exactly super rare at high levels. With robe wearers going around in the 25-ish AC area, adding +20 of anti-seeker will be exactly the same as adding +0 in anti-seeker.

Being protected from critical hits is in everyone's vested interest. The mechanic by which they protect themselves has to be accessible to everyone, because everyone gets hit, and considering how hard monsters hit when they aren't critting, crits become nearly instant death much of the time. Turning fortification into AC doesn't give fidelity of access to all characters. The tiny handful people who walk around with 70+ normal AC will become basically crit immune. The slightly less tiny handful of people with middling AC will get the equivalent of 20-60% fortification, and the very large number of people with no AC will recieve no benefit from this at all. How does that -in any way- improve the game?

Besides which, making crit protection so difficult to obtain will even further emphasize the importance of hitpoints. Which is fine for barbs/wizzies/sorcs/healbots/most fighters who can drop an 18 into one attribute, and all the rest into con, but those classes who need more than one attribute will be -extremely- hosed. Also hosed is the entire concept of character diversity, to an even greater extent than you're complaining heavy fort does.

I agree with your assessment. I also disagree with the OP's assertion that anything that is a necessity is broken. I also disagree with the assertion that heavy fort is a necessity. The developers started this with over inflated hitpoints and to-hits. This is in no way a fix for anything. It is tinkering where no tinkering is required. I do not look forward to the grind to 100% heavy fort if these suggestions are implemented. We are already grinding plenty.

[Angelus_dead]

Wouldn't it be great if they addressed that first, rather than contemplate sweeping changes to fortification mechanics & mob balancing?

The personnel who program network messaging are most assuredly not the same people who design weapon damage.

No wait, maybe that's their grand plan. Fix DPS lag by removing DPS! No more lag if everyone is dead, woohoo!

Seriously, there is one defensible game-design approach to fixing DPS lag:
Create a new version of every raid balanced for groups of six.

That would not only avoid the lag, but be more fun in general... but it would also mean admitting failure, so of course the devs won't go there.

[Vhlad]

Seriously, there is one defensible game-design approach to fixing DPS lag:
Create a new version of every raid balanced for groups of six.

That would not only avoid the lag, but be more fun in general... but it would also mean admitting failure, so of course the devs won't go there.

I really like 12 player raids actually. It's the perfect group size for me.
6 is too small, not enough class/race/personality/social diversity.
24 (age of conan) was not fun. Too many, and a logistical pain.

12 is nice imo.

[Kromize]

Since people don't like tying fort to ac, and the current system is sub-par, how about we just use numbers? I think if you were to mix it in with the update that Eladrin mentioned, could make the system a lot better, and not just some end-all crit-proofer.

IE: light fort = 2, moderate = 5, heavy = 8. And you roll d10 to see if you succeed on bypassing their fort. You could then get bonuses to add to your fort roll, and so on. And warforged would have a base 2 fort to start with, with items adding onto it of course.

Would make for a much more sensible system then 100% I think. Using percent as a counter never does work well... Even if the only true difference is the '%' sign.

[GeneralDiomedes]

If the mob crit was say 20X2 .. I think the proverbial one-shot would be pretty rare.

Also, why not just give the mobs more burst effects on their weapons? Those are few and far between.

[Kromize]

If the mob crit was say 20X2 .. I think the proverbial one-shot would be pretty rare.

Also, why not just give the mobs more burst effects on their weapons? Those are few and far between.

Why not spawn each mob with a set of random equipment? Why do they have to be programmed in specifically to have a vorpal or something cool?

It would be interesting to see mobs wearing different things...right now they're all the same.

[Emili]

http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p...6&postcount=81

Which in turn is less convincing to the idea... It creates character dependancies on those capable of achieving AC/Fort... presenting less option in build and party dynamics is not good at all for the game.

"You don't think it's a good idea to increase diversity of character types or have a real drawback to intense focus on damage and hitpoints to the exclusion of defense?" <- this statement focuses for less diversity not more - it states ALL good characters should have defense plus damage plus hp = less diversity. You assure that all dex based melee require a monk splash plus decent wisdom exist on every ranger and rogue... you assure the defender PrE of fighter - which I may add gains AC DR and STR is the only way to build a fighter, why would anyone consider the other PrE's... You diminish the Warchanter, cleric and FvS chances to melee, pound barbarians into the ground with unneeded PrE and that casters may never nuke without an intimidator or some other form of agro control around?

... and this is your idea of fun?

I'm not convinced yet...

[Tarnoc]

after being frustrated at this thoughts for most of the day because of the game change that this could be i propose this......


why not spend dev time giving clerics and favoured souls PREs expand bard PREs...more spells at higher lvls and give the game and classes a bit of love instead of a general player nerf to wat they have been playing for 4 years now

ide love to see bards get the KEEN spell for instance or casters getting the BIGBYs hand spells thiers a ton of things to improve the game that could be done without nerfing existing formats......


P.S. btw currently non epic mobs in some locations can hit you for 80ish points of damage ona non crit and if they can crit you honestly think the devs will keep them all on the club format of 20x2? not likely ...

epic mobs hti for 200+ non crit so say good bye to the non cowering caster think its bad for casters now in groups wen the get one shotted for doign anythign noone will want them short of buffing IMO that would be moving us back to the lvl 12 cap wen sorcs were rarely in groups and wizzys often because you knew the wizzys would have buffs

[hackemkill]

Imo, this change to fortification would create the following situations.

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1) Boss mobs with extreme fortification & extremely high ability to reduce fortification

Parties would require a new possible class type that specialised in improved sunder, eagle claw etc. To reduce him to a state where the party could crit it since he probably have a supreme DC to match ur normal skills. Now they could probably sunder ur 100% fort to 0% in 1 blow with again superb D/C and most likely in an AoE function. They basic leave the need to negate crit impossible unless u come with super fort item which is most likely to be some epic drop for a few. Most likely the new tanks would need HP tank with no AC/DR/Fortification. With the critical hits, full HP tanks would be a requirements so more healers needed per party.


2) Mobs (trash) with low fortification

Probably new trash would have a minimum 50% fort so that those improve sunder would come in useful. At least now, koesph would go out of fashion and back to THF GA barbarians. Where base dmg is more important then those improved critical range. Lastly the price of vorpal should be going up since it is now the only weapon against high HP trash.

3) Undead fortification

While rogues rejoy with the chance to decrease the undead fortification (200%), it probably takes a huge amount of repeated improved sundering blow (10 if 10% per blow to 100% fort), so by the time u bring him down to a state for critical, u probably need a few more blows to kill him. If it is a undead boss mob, most likely they are still immune or have crazy DC to improved sunder.

4) Improved critical range/reduced base damage/HP adjustment attunements

With this system, low HP character would get a good change to be 1-shotted, I remember Irestone (yes that 4lvl quest) the ogre have shoot an arrow and hit a critical for 46HP and in WW they critical 100HP. Now imagine a high level (16+ quest) or Epic how much they would hit for critical. Therefore, the future post would be "WHY do I have to take 10x Toughness as fighter to be in a party?". HP items would be all you need and probably nothing else since the mobs probably hit you 300-400 on critical, most could probably hold up one-two blow in full health.

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While I see it would challenge to the game, careful consideration on implemention should be made, cause the increase critical damage really hurts. Running around ogres in Gianthold without fort now would hurt for most since they seems to critical so often.

In the current state, melees loses a slot for Heavy Fortification to increase their survivability in combat. If you stay out of battle, you could afford to not to wear, though many would recommend it. Perhaps instead of tweeking fortification, perhaps we should be looking to create new items to complete for those slots that seems more desirable for their classes.

[Borror0]

this statement focuses for less diversity not more - it states ALL good characters should have defense plus damage plus hp = less diversity.

The idea is to force characters to pick the amount of defense and offense they want.

Visibly, a barbarian will have less defense against critical hits than a fighter: the barbarian loses -6ish AC by using rage while the fighter have heavy armor proficiency, Fighter Armor Mastery and more feats to pick Dodge. However, the barbarian should have more DPS (emphasis on should). This would force the player to chose between a character that has more DPS but is more likely to get hit by critical hits or a character that does less DPS but that is better protected versus critical hits.

You seem to assume that a character would become useless without good fortification, but there is no basis for that assumption: it's clearly stated in the suggestion that some monsters should have their DPS revised in other to avoid being too deadly.