Remove/Replace Fortification.

[Stanley_Nicholas]

This might be a workable change (though other things are in greater need of immediate change IMO, such as fixing rogues...), but it would have to be done very carefully. If many mobs, dangerous ones in particular, become able to temporarily reduce fortification of players, that would be a big nerf to fleshys as compared to warforged.

Wf are already mathematically and game mechanics-wise the superior race in many circumstances. A change like this done without a lot of forethought could introduce some serious game imbalances regarding the races. Now it may bring up some interesting decisions about whether to roll that new fighter as a warforged or a half orc, but any other race wouldn't even be worth considering except for role playing purposes. And that would be a mistake.

[SkyCry]

I like both suggestions. In fact, they would work well in conjunction.

If fortification is indeed an anti-seeker of sorts, destruction and sunder will allow you to make more critical hits. They can also be changed so that -4 destruction AC counts as -8 for the purposes of overcoming fortification.

My staff monk with Improved Sunder, Eagle Claw and eventually Rahl's Might will be very happy.

[Pyromaniac]

/not signed. Rogues do enough DPS as it is...

[noinfo]

We've been debating something similar to this, actually. Sunder, Improved Sunder, Destruction, Eagle Claw Strike, and the like would be fortification modifying effects instead of (or in addition to some of) their current effects, and we'd add other abilities that add to or lower fortification percentage as well. (We'd also likely add more possible treasure effects than the current 25/75/100%)

A secondary thing we're considering to go along with that is changing undead, constructs, and other similar creatures to having a base 200% fortification, and if you bust it down below 100%, rendering them vulnerable to critical hits and sneak attacks.

All still under debate at the moment.

Eladrin, while this is a start I believe the whole fortification system needs to be reworked one suggestion was my thread http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=2795915

AD's proposal is another solution, however by having it linked to ac presents the problem of Barbarians getting a very raw deal. The % concept can be related separately to just concentrating on protecting core areas rather than total attack avoidance.

Fortification being reworked is your best chance of rebalancing s/b, ac and hp related issues at high level.

[vettkinn]

That's right. Remove it. It's illogical, and causes more grief to those who don't wear heavy fort then it helps overall. It also causes unbalance in the game, because your expected to have it no matter what in the higher levels. Lower levels are more fun because of unexpected critical hits, causing those "Oh sh##!" moments. Instead of limiting the amount of crits, increase them, and increase the ways to increase a chance for a critical hit, etc. For example, increase the chance to score a critical hit if your attack counts as a sneak attack.


Replace it with something that makes more sense. Do not ever grant 100% immunity from critical hits, and don't include sneak attacks with it, those are completely different.

Seem like a radical idea? Because, it is. But it's for the better, I swear.

+1

But comrade Kromize, is this a good idea?

If we are to remove fortification then those stupid hobgoblins and ogres with ridiculous "super keen" swords and clubs will need to be nerfed somehow.

[Kromize]

+1

But comrade Kromize, is this a good idea?

If we are to remove fortification then those stupid hobgoblins and ogres with ridiculous "super keen" swords and clubs will need to be nerfed somehow.

Yes, I am aware of what lurks in the zone of criticals. But I think if done correctly they can have a game that includes critical hits and is fun(no need for fortification). However, I suppose that's a bit too radical for a game that is trying to stick to an already made set of rules. Even if I think those rules are...obsolete. I suppose it's better for this game, with it's unique standing, that fortification stays in. It's still needs to be tweaked tho, to allow for more versatility, and fun.

[Daggaz]

The Law of Compounding Chance says no.

Any table top DM worth his salt knows that any increase in luck/bad luck will multiply drastically when applied to the players, as applied to the monsters. The reason is simple. A monster will see the group once, have his shot at glory, and die horribly all within about five minutes. An adventurer will (or should) live to fight many, many such monsters.

So if all the monsters have an equal chance to crit the player as the player has to crit them, its the player who is going to eat the bad end of the stick. Sure, added up all the monsters together will eat as many crits.. but individually the monster only sees a handful of crits tops. The player on the other hand has to survive thousands of crits, and eventually (much soon than later in practise) they WILL succumb and die. For this reason, "luck" is essentially a bad thing for players. Its better to call it "risk." And succumbing to the risks isn't necessarily fun.

In tabletop, this is often game ending, even campaign ending. Most DM's will pull their punches to keep the game fun. A lot of experienced DMs get rid of monster crits altogether. Wizards recognized this inherent game imbalance, and implemented fortification items. Thank god. Now DMs who dont like to "cheat" had an in game reason to do what they were doing all along.

In DDO, its not quite as drastic since death is unfortunately almost completely pointless, except for short term goals of completing a quest. You can almost always restart it immediately; the worst you get is reflagging (sos) or raid timers if you cant reenter. But still, dying too much, or just once at the wrong time, is enough to put a serious damper on game play. The smooth, action packed pace that DDO devs have rightfully and skillfully implemented is essential to this game's enjoyment and mechanics. If you are constantly eating crits, it wont matter how skillful or l33t or twitchtastic your guild is, it will still come down heavily on luck, and more often than not, luck is going to get ugly for one of the six or twelve on your team, stopping the gameplay and maybe the mission.

Luck should always play a roll, but it should be a sliding scale in the hands of the players. The more skill they have, the less luck they have to deal with, and vice-versa.

I think the Dev's are right on track tho with the ideas mentioned on the first page of this thread. Fort mitigation effects can be balanced both ways and would allow for some new room for builds to maneuver in, but yeah, they would have to be careful for the same reasons outlined above. The idea to make fort into AC however, is inherently flawed and Im glad its not one the Devs are tossing around. Monster +hit numbers are already far higher than normal, this would just feed into the broken AC mechanic, as well there would be unintended ways to get around fort and start whacking undead, for example. I did like the idea that certain PrE's should have higher chances to crit normally immune mobs, for example mechanics taking down constructs. Very cool and very workable.

In the end, I think players who really have a problem with this kind of thing should take off their fort items and join a permadeath guild. Try it out for a while. You can even hit up e-bay for ADnD 2.0 books, I recommend the Tomb of Horrors. I have a feeling you will be back tho. The easy button is big and yeah the Devs are punching it too often, but fort items and crits are not part of that problem.

[Mellkor]

/not signed

Remove fortification as the OP suggests??!

This is almost the dumest idea I have ever heard for this game.

There are FAR greater things the game developers need to work on than something that works fine as is. To the OP if you don't like heavy fort, then don't wear it.

[SkyCry]

To the OP if you don't like heavy fort, then don't wear it.

That's the problem. He can't afford to not wear it! Because the whole game has been designed with heavy fort in mind since level 11. You can't survive without it. It's not an option whether to wear it or not, you just have to. No choice is the problem!

[Daggaz]

That's the problem. He can't afford to not wear it! Because the whole game has been designed with heavy fort in mind since level 11. You can't survive without it. It's not an option whether to wear it or not, you just have to. No choice is the problem!

Your "logic" confuses me.

First, he has the option to not wear it. Just take it off. But you mean its just not survivable without it. So you must mean that nobody should have fort items (remove them from the game) but at the same time, to make the game "survivable", you would have to remove crits, as it is the crits you receive when not wearing fort items that make the game "not survivable".

So we take out fort items, and we take out crits? And wow, we are back to the beginning, except now its even worse. Now you are essentially wearing heavy fort at lvl one with a naked toon.

Things get even more wonky if you then try to argue about ramping down monster damage, because that will effect all their noncrits as well, which is 95% of the time. Something fort items never affected before.

Of course, you could get really tricky, and talk about just monster crit damage... say by putting a cap on it or some other handicap. So now monsters are gimped or handicapped as some would say, but what I would say, is that you have essentially mitigated crits, which was EXACTLY what fortification does. Ipso facto, back to the status quo.

Brilliant.

The only thing that made any sense whatsoever in this whole thread was the Devs idea about mitigating fortification thru in-fight affects. So now you arent guaranteed 100% crit immunity, which could work, but would take careful balancing. As they said, they are still debating it heavily.

[SkyCry]

First, he has the option to not wear it. Just take it off. But you mean its just not survivable without it. So you must mean that nobody should have fort items (remove them from the game) but at the same time, to make the game "survivable", you would have to remove crits, as it is the crits you receive when not wearing fort items that make the game "not survivable".

This is where your assumption is flawed. Removing crits altogether isn't the only way to fix the problem. Read this thread for other solutions. The rest of your post is based on this flawed assumption.

[Asymetric_War]

We've been debating something similar to this, actually. Sunder, Improved Sunder, Destruction, Eagle Claw Strike, and the like would be fortification modifying effects instead of (or in addition to some of) their current effects, and we'd add other abilities that add to or lower fortification percentage as well. (We'd also likely add more possible treasure effects than the current 25/75/100%)

A secondary thing we're considering to go along with that is changing undead, constructs, and other similar creatures to having a base 200% fortification, and if you bust it down below 100%, rendering them vulnerable to critical hits and sneak attacks.

All still under debate at the moment.

personally, I think this is a terrible idea, not everyone can get 600+ hit points and with bosses already hitting for north of 100 in end game making players vulnerable to crits would make many low hp melee classes (i'm thinking rogs in particular) unplayable at end game. my 18rog/2 fighter has 447 hp at 20 with 2x toughness, GFL, 22 con, draconic vitality, all the toughness enhancements i can get and a greensteel hp item. there's literally nothing I can do as a rog to get it any higher. You take away her fort and she'll be getting 1-shotted by harry even fully raid geared. and that right there is the type of change that's gonna make a guy like me quit in disgust and cancel my account after playing this game since launch.

seriously, this is a phenomenally bad idea.

[KRaNiX1337]

Fortification is a good thing. Leave it be. Dont gimp everyone else because you are F2P and cant get the helm yourself.

Heavy fort is not required, I know plenty level 20 casters who run without fortification all the time. Its just a nice bonus to the heavy tanks who have to take the 60-100 hits from end game raid bosses, imagine a x3-6 crit on that **** and tell me you still ok with not having fortification in the game.

Forget about all the suggestions here EXCEPT the idea of having special attacks and stances to break/reduce fortification. In the same way, give stances that improve and raise fortification. I also liked the suggestions about making prestige classes overcome certain common crit immune mobs fortification.

[Chaosprism]

Actually fortification is one of those things I think that should have never been able to change easily. I dont even like the idea of items granting it or modifying it. Though seeing it an ARMOR itself makes MORE sense than a belt to me. (armor designed to protect you from specific attacks)
Innate magic to TRANFORM who you are into somehting else that doesnt have vulnerable points SHOULD be something special in my opinion (people have forgotten the now useless wf fortification feat that makes you 100% fortified at severe cost of not ever being able to be healed again)

The genie however is out of the bottle, fortification is out there and gettable easily, it's not something only warforged characters have.


On a side note: Allowing barbarians to gain their immunity to flanking (sneak attacks) (while on their feet) just through skill is something missing for their survivability.

[Hihiirokane]

I don't feel very comfortable with drastic mechanics changes when a game has been played for so long. Generally because it is unnecessary when there are smaller, simpler tweaks available to make said mechanic work.

People who talk about removing crits, throwing around AC completely and what not have not really thought about the consequences this may have on the entire system. It's a bit like telling every driver in the country to start driving on the left side of the road instead of the right. Guaranteed mayhem.

The best suggestion I think has already been put forward. Fortification should be reworked into an anti-seeker bonus. Instead of the four versions now, we could have -2/-4/-6/-8/-10 crit confirmation penalty items. With crit confirm penalties also being present on monsters, character builds that focus on critting and stacking Seeker bonuses will indeed have their occasional crits, all throughout the level range 1-20. And, undeniably, so will the monsters. And so they should. Given a reasonable capped amount of crit confirm penalty, this is easy to balance out against each other.

[Hihiirokane]

personally, I think this is a terrible idea, not everyone can get 600+ hit points and with bosses already hitting for north of 100 in end game making players vulnerable to crits would make many low hp melee classes (i'm thinking rogs in particular) unplayable at end game. my 18rog/2 fighter has 447 hp at 20 with 2x toughness, GFL, 22 con, draconic vitality, all the toughness enhancements i can get and a greensteel hp item. there's literally nothing I can do as a rog to get it any higher. You take away her fort and she'll be getting 1-shotted by harry even fully raid geared. and that right there is the type of change that's gonna make a guy like me quit in disgust and cancel my account after playing this game since launch.

seriously, this is a phenomenally bad idea.

Are you saying your low HP rogue should be able to tank mobs?

You are designed to be more vulnerable than a fully armored tank. You get things in return for your vulnerability. You are designed to be flanking.

[Xezno]

I actually like the idea of fort items adding AC to confirm critical hits. You might need to rebalance the monsters to hit a bit though. The reason for this is that in addition to wearing a lets say +10/20/30 AC to confirm crits you would need to have a decent AC. Now AC becomes very valuable to all classes including Barbs and Casters. You would also allways get critted on a confirmation roll of 20 increasing the exitement of the game.

A barbarian wearing some equipment can get a decent AC, just most of them do not care about it because it does not matter. Having such a high HP pool they should be able to survive a few crits anyhow. Raging will then give you a higher chance of being critted but at the same time increase your HP.

At the same time they can remove the stupid grazing hits system.

[moomooprincess]

No Minos Legens for me. No necklace from Relic of the Soveriegn Past or whatever the adamantine quest is called. I have fun and that is what matters to me. If I am being denied a party, so be it. Their choice to deny me, I can always put up my own LFM.

I do most quests in the game. Just started soloing the Inspired Quarter quests. I have to run quests by myself so I can master them and not slow down other players. Which is my play-style choice.

After IQ, I will go to the Devils. I have thought about going to get the minos legens helm, but that is as far as I have gone. I just don't feel like grinding the 20 tapestries. I like my current helm.

Others are soloing the epic quests, so I will assume I can to.

[Kalikorz]

Fortification is in the PNP an Armor only enchantment that is the balancing factor your looking for. No rogue should be running around heavily fortified as his sneakyness is his defense. (you would have to fix rogues first :P) light fortification to medium fortification at best. Generally only Heavy plate should be heavily fortified but magic does do wonders. Also if you simply increase the + equivalent or make it like this +1 = 20 percent fort +2= 40 percent +3= 60 percent +4=80 percent +5=100 percent then scale as necessary (+1 = 15 percent or whatever works). I have not played long but this was a PNP fix back in the day. This way you could never have a +10 plate of heavy fortification you could only have a +5 plate of ultra heavy fort. Also we made monsters confirm each x1 crit. so a full x4 crit took 4 confirmation rolls to get all of the damage on there. Those minor tweaks addressed the players facing too many crits issue.

Just a thought please critique.

[WarNite]

Bzzt. You don't build it up "through" your career. You get Heavy Fortification once, probably around level 9, and then you keep it forever after. Level 9 is rather early in a character's growth.

Bzzt.... Maybe next time u can read my entire post! spelling mistakes and all before u troll the the first sentence.
Also, if u only had time to read the first sentence then please read it correctly and understand it before u Bzzt me!

I did not mention heavy fort! I was speaking of fortification in general. As for telling me that I don't build fort up through my career well....lol guess u really did miss the rest of my post as I stated that at levels 1-4 I strive to equip a item with 25% fort to at least give me a little hope against crits, lvs 5-10 I try to have a 75%fort item equipped, and finally at lv 11 I get my helm with heavy fort to last me to end game.

So really I don't know what your sayin.... YES I build my fortification up "through" my career until I obtain my heavy fort item at lv 11....simple! The purpose of my post was to state that I enjoy the process of upgrading my fortification stat when rolling a new toon, it is fun 2 me... nuff said! I do not want fort to be eleminated in this game.

Simples posts leaves mes alones

Bzzt.....try again!!!!

Nite