Remove/Replace Fortification.

[Vhlad]

+5 with Barkskin
+4 Bard
+2 Recitation

That's already 59.

Add +20 fort item: 79.

That's not terrible, actually.

Yeah it is. My monk with 80AC seems to get hit 95% of the time in epic desert. And if you lower to-hits then extreme AC builds with 100AC become near invincible.

It would be a mistake to expect every group to have a divine caster with recitation or a bard with AC song, kept up on each player. You can't balance around such a restriction unless you want to reduce gameplay options.

You're looking at a character decked to the hilt with end-game gear and tomes. How are new players supposed to compete with that, if they're complaining about being declined for not having something as simple as a single heavy fort item? Also, the AC that a pure cleric, fvs, THF bard/pal/fighter (non defender), barbarian, sorc, wizard can reach is generally much lower than my 20 ranger, especially if WF.

[gavagai]

Yeah it is. My monk with 80AC seems to get hit 95% of the time in epic desert. And if you lower to-hits then extreme AC builds with 100AC become near invincible.

It would be a mistake to expect every group to have a divine caster with recitation or a bard with AC song, kept up on each player. You can't balance around such a restriction unless you want to reduce gameplay options.

You're looking at a character decked to the hilt with end-game gear and tomes. How are new players supposed to compete with that, if they're complaining about being declined for not having something as simple as a single heavy fort item? Also, the AC that a pure cleric, fvs, THF bard/pal/fighter (non defender), barbarian, sorc, wizard can reach is generally much lower than my 20 ranger, especially if WF.

I'd be interested in hearing from a tank player how often a monk with an 100AC for fort purposes would get crit.

I think the flex variables are the anti-seeker bonuses and mob damage more than to-hit scores. If 80+20 anti-seeker won't be effective, than maybe 80+30 is necessary. Lowering to-hit scores is another debate that I'm not going to step into

The point is that a Tempest, for instance, with the commitment you've made for AC really doesn't have to dig into the Kitchen Sink grab-bag to get close to 80. Already the "bliss point" for anti-seeker is less +50 and more like +30.

The only "imbalance" that I'm worried about with classes are non-WF arcanes, since they truly have unavoidably low ACs, lack self healing, and lack the defensive spells from PnP that would give them situationally high DR and crit immunities. Barbs, divine casters, and even bards and rogues to an extent have the tools to keep themselves alive, given they don't play like idiots.

[brian14]

The devs current solution to this is to make many bosses have an ability that temporarily reduces your fortification.

Problem with this is that every boss that currently has the ability is bugged. (Notable example is the endboss of the Dreaming Dark)

What exactly is the bug?

[Borror0]

Take my pure ranger for example,
http://my.ddo.com/character/thelanis/vhlader/
His DT armor has dodge +3, 1 weapon has insight 4, his helm has prot +5, he has native +4 shield AC from tempest III, +1 from dodge feat, +1 from two weapon defense feat, 2 armor mastery enhancements, and if I swap bracers to chaosguardes for +2 dodge he will be sitting at 48 AC. This is a character that has already invested on more than just hp, saves, and DPS, but his AC is still irrelevant end-game.

Your ranger could reach something like:
10 base
+8 Armor (bracer)
+4 Shield
+9 Dexterity (from your MyDDO link)
+10 Dodge (IR, CR, Haste, Dodge feat, ritual)
+5 Deflection
+5 Natural (Barkskin)
+4 Insight
+1 Two Weapon Defense
56 self-buffed AC

S&B fighter:
10 base
+15 Armor (DT)
+9 Shield (Levik's)
+6 Dexterity
+9 Dodge (CR, CG, Dodge feat, Haste, rituals)
+5 Deflection
+3 Natural (Barkskin potions)
+4 Insight
+3 Stalwart Defender
+5 Combat Expertise
69 (or 73 with Defensive Stance)

A few buffs are missing, but both of you would gain equally from those (with the exception of Barkskin, but that's a mere +2 difference) so the gap would not widen any more than that. Considering that the gap is only of 13 points, a +20 bonus would bring your ranger higher than level of protection of a S&B fighter - not +50 like you claimed. Other less fortunate builds might fall under the dice but that's not the end of the world either. It just means they'll get critted, so what?

Allowing low AC characters to get hit by critical hits is one of the goals of the change, after all.

And if you lower to-hits then extreme AC builds with 100AC become near invincible.

1. Introduce to me to one good 100 AC character.
2. The change wouldn't be perfect. That does not mean it's bad or isn't an improvement over the current situation.
3. One of the design of grazing hits was to make high AC characters not invulnerable. All that would mean is that the grazing hits formula has to be revised to be slightly more punitive of high AC characters.

[grodon9999]

Again I'd like to ask where do you think that 80 AC is comming from? Epic items? Feats? Show me an itemized DPS build with 80 sustained fighting AC in every basic class... then I would like you to show me where Pure or tier III PrE's stand or a Berzerker stand or a Warchanter stand or shall they not be viable survivable builds? Is the scope of this to take away Diversity?

Hey, here are some other ideas - granulate some other game features...

Why not let your "To-Hit" over the mob AC count for extra damage the less you clear the mob AC the less damage you do the more you cleared the mob AC the more damage you may do?

Why not scale evasion to reflex save - You only saved by a 1 this time so you take a little damage anyway?

Maybe not 80 but I can hit the low 70s on my "DPS" Ranger, it's a more realistic number. In end-game (epic) should that be worth something over a guy spent no time into it at all?

[maddmatt70]

I hate this whole Idea. I thought this game was based on D&D.

[smatt]

After eading through this a bit, there are soem decent enough ideas.... I simply dont' see enough a real reason to change teh forticfication mechanic.. Especially if it means that the changes will also affect the PC's.... Think about the poor clerics hat will have to heal the tanks with their fort knocked down by the mobs.. You know darned well that's coming along with this change to mobs... Ahh store sales.... Clerics with limited mana will buy MORE pots $$$$$$$


Bad change.... More palyers ideas, which are great.. Always ncie to see people throwing darts at the Dev board... Sometimes they turn out in a good way.... This change, in so many ways could backfire in a bad way....

[gavagai]

I hate this whole Idea. I thought this game was based on D&D.

That's actually the major reason why I wouldn't want this.

At the same time, though, everything past level 18 is so substantially different from D&D that I'm willing to consider creative tweaks to bring some D&D-like cohesion to all the technical oddities.

I mean come on: D&D wasn't full of level 20 Fighters in robes with heavy fort from a magic hat.

[Emili]

I hate this whole Idea. I thought this game was based on D&D.

It's not... now go away.

Course you know am teasing.

[Emili]

You completely missed the point. I won't bother explaining it again.
Cya

No, I understood the point... and my point is do you really suppose you may take a "Monster" gear it and buff it to 80 AC with todays gear and have it still be a functional damaging melee?

[grodon9999]

I hate this whole Idea. I thought this game was based on D&D.

This game stops being D&D at level 10.

[smatt]

And now it's about implementing changes that will encourage more store use.....

[Aaxeyu]

No, I understood the point... and my point is do you really suppose you may take a "Monster" gear it and buff it to 80 AC with todays gear and have it still be a functional damaging melee?

Sigh. 80 was just a number based on the random number I gave the tank in the example.
I see that I spelled theoretically wrong, but was it THAT hard to understand?
Geez...

[Vhlad]

Your ranger could reach something like:
10 base
+8 Armor (bracer)
+4 Shield
+9 Dexterity (from your MyDDO link)
+10 Dodge (IR, CR, Haste, Dodge feat, ritual)
+5 Deflection
+5 Natural (Barkskin)
+4 Insight
+1 Two Weapon Defense
56 self-buffed AC

With a bark and haste, he can self-buff to 54. You can't change his armor and rings and expect his dex bonus to remain the same.

I dont think new player retention will be as strong if they're going to get man-handled by critical hits until they grind out insight +4, chat ring, icey raiments, AC 8 bracers, tomes, +5 deflection, litany of the dead, and exceptional dex bonus. Fortification in its current form is much much more forgiving and, looking at the gear/builds of new players, I think that forgiveness is necessary.

[Monkey_Archer]

We've been debating something similar to this, actually. Sunder, Improved Sunder, Destruction, Eagle Claw Strike, and the like would be fortification modifying effects instead of (or in addition to some of) their current effects, and we'd add other abilities that add to or lower fortification percentage as well. (We'd also likely add more possible treasure effects than the current 25/75/100%)

A secondary thing we're considering to go along with that is changing undead, constructs, and other similar creatures to having a base 200% fortification, and if you bust it down below 100%, rendering them vulnerable to critical hits and sneak attacks.

All still under debate at the moment.

Just thought I'd quote this again...

I like the idea of giving players (and a some monsters) the ability to lower fortification. It would add alot to tactics based combat IMO. Allowing monsters to also lower our fortification isnt a bad idea either (actually it already exists in the form of Mordenkainen's Disjunction)

The idea of permanently relating ac to fortification is just terrible (theres more then enough reasons already listed in this thread so i wont repeat them), and really has nothing to do with what Eladrin was talking about


Side note:
If fortification reduction abilities do get added, these "anti-seeker" type items/effects could become a viable defense mechanism for AC/tank builds when they have their fortification reduced.

[grodon9999]

And now it's about implementing changes that will encourage more store use.....

You're smarter than I am, I just noticed that

Now off to buy another stack of Supreme Ability pots . . .

[grodon9999]

No, I understood the point... and my point is do you really suppose you may take a "Monster" gear it and buff it to 80 AC with todays gear and have it still be a functional damaging melee?

75 with CE on - this is for the dwarf I'm building. 70 for Power Attack.

10 Base
1 Dodge
4 Icy Raiments Dodge
1 Alchemical Dodge
6 Wisdom
8 Dexterity
1 TWD
3 Chattering ring
4 Insight (Shroud Crafted)
5 Protection
5 Barkskin
8 Armor Bracers
2 Tempest I
1 Haste
5 Combat Expertise
4 Bard song
5 Palidin Aura
2 Recitation

75

[Borror0]

I dont think new player retention will be as strong if they're going to get man-handled by critical hits until they grind out insight +4, chat ring, icey raiments, AC 8 bracers, tomes, +5 deflection, litany of the dead, and exceptional dex bonus.

Again, the proposal entails that players will be hit by critical hits. Otherwise it'd be a waste of time.

That's why part of the proposal mentions that monsters' critical hits will be adjusted the a reasonable and enjoyable level.

[smatt]

You're smarter than I am, I just noticed that

Now off to buy another stack of Supreme Ability pots . . .

Hurry hurry hurry.... The sale will end


With the fact that clerics are so limited in their availble SP pools.. I can see all these mobs that already use sunder, knocking party fort down and then blam blam blam ..... SP's gone on cleric.. Oh darned there goes another pot.... and another.... and another...

[Emili]

75 with CE on - this is for the dwarf I'm building. 70 for Power Attack.

10 Base
1 Dodge
4 Icy Raiments Dodge
1 Alchemical Dodge
6 Wisdom
8 Dexterity
1 TWD
3 Chattering ring
4 Insight (Shroud Crafted)
5 Protection
5 Barkskin
8 Armor Bracers
2 Tempest I
1 Haste
5 Combat Expertise
4 Bard song
5 Palidin Aura
2 Recitation

75

That is fine it is a Monk Splash and as I pointed out Monster still is not functional at 80 you're in the 70's with CE on with a Bard keeping Heroics songed up on you and a Pally standing next to you... In real game play you're at 66 with CE on and 61 with PA on for nearly as much of the time.

My last Epic run last night the party was my fighter two monks a cleric and a sorc. I was in DPS mode on my fighter ... is TWF Kensai (no monk) so drops significantly... if I drop PA and done tower I have 66 before buffs... buffed up at 72 I'm still hit... if the mob sunders and have ability to reduce fort how long do you imagine it would take before crits become eminent? Read you logs in Epic... *sigh* I suppose pure fighters especially human should onlyl be defenders and that kensai III will be more of a wasted PrE then currently is now?