Kensai III/Juggernaut III - Insane Toaster Build?

[Ghoste]

As per Eladrin's hint, the juggernaut Prc will be a racial enhancement that counts as a barbarian prc (ie. can't take it as well as another barb Prc)

Warforged: Juggernaut [Counts as Barbarian]

I know we don't have any concrete details from Turbine yet as to what exactly will be included in this Prc, but I wanted to see what wild speculation I could get started on the forums about what this will eventually look like, not to mention the fact that if I understand the enhancements correctly, it can be taken without conflicting with non-barbarian Prc's (such as kensai).

For those not familiar with the pen and paper version of the juggernaut, I'll post a few details:

Requirements:
warforged, BaB +5, Adamantine Body, Improved Bull Rush, Power Attack.

Features:
Armor Spikes: deal 1d6, and later 1d8, dmg during grapple attacks, and also can be added to bull rush damage.
Expert Bull Rush: Add class level (juggernaut level, not base class)to DC for strength checks for breaking doors and bull rushes.
Powerful Charge: Charge attacks deal an extra 1d8 damage.
Reserved: take a -1 penalty to diplo, bluff, gather info and sense motive checks per juggernaut level.
Charge bonus: +1 to attack rolls when charging, +2 later on.
Extended Charge: a speed boost when charging.
Healing Immunity: shhh, don't tell the cleric.
Superior Bull Rush: Bull rush attack adds armor spike damage + str bonus to attack.
Greater Powerful Charge: add 2d6 to charge damage instead of 1d8.
Construct Perfection I: immunity to crits.
Construct Perfection II: Immunity to all mind affecting spells and abilities.
Construct Perfection III: Immunity to death effects and necromancy effects.
Construct Perfection IV: Immunity to ability damage and ability drain.

Obviously these wont all translate so well into DDO, but I'm curious to see what other players speculate the enhancements will look like, and if you think as I do that being able to mix the full juggernaut line with the full line of kensai enhancements will make them pretty sick.

[QuantumFX]

Pfft… who cares about the metagaming aspect. The character would be worth building based on RP value alone.

“Silly b****. Don’t you know who I AM? I’m the juggernaut b****!”

In fact, I think that when Eladrin gives us a preview of this PrE he should write it entirely in the style of that particular internet meme.

[Waukeen]

you won't get both. it would be unbalancing.

[Inspire]

Been getting ready for the Kensai/Juggernaut on Woad for quite a few months now. Can't wait.

[Ghoste]

you won't get both. it would be unbalancing.

This game's balanced? Besides, they've already made it clear that juggernaut only excludes taking other barb Prc's.

[TreknaQudane]

Construct Perfection II: Immunity to all mind affecting spells and abilities.

So....

No Rage

No Bard Songs

No Greater Heroism

[Ghoste]

No Bard Songs

Unless the bard has music of the makers.

[Twerpp]

I like it, I hope its cool. The total immunity to healing though will blow it for most people. You cant depend on arcanes to do jack for you.

[Ghoste]

No Rage

The fact that they have decided to make it a barbarian Prc makes me doubt that they will implement this immunity, at least as far as immunity to the ability. The spell on the other hand...

As you can see, it can be a tricky Prc to play, but the benefits mean it can be played very powerfully by a clever player.

[Jay203]

i see i'm not the only one looking forward to this one
sup ghoste~

[MrCow]

My take on a DDO PrE version of the Juggernaut:

Warforged Juggernaut

4AP
Warforged Juggernaut I
Prereqs: Race: Warforged, Level 6 Barbarian or Level 8 Warforged, Warforged Construct Thinking I, Warforged Tactics I, Warforged Damage Reduction I, Power Attack, Adamantine Body
Benefit: You begin to forsake the way of the living and follow the path of the construct. Your ability to be healed is inhibited by 10% and your social skills (haggle, bluff, diplomacy, intimidation) drop by -1. You gain +25% fortification. Your body sprouts spikes that deal 1d6 piercing damage when hit. You also gain immunity to mental effects including enchantments, compulsions, charms, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects. You can also activate an extended charge stance.

Warforged Juggernaut: Extended Charge
(Mobility Style Stance)
When active, for every second of continuous running you have performed you gain a bonus to run speed (5%) up to a total of four seconds (20%).

2AP
Warforged Juggernaut II
Prereqs: Race: Warforged, Level 12 Barbarian or Level 14 Warforged, Warforged Juggernaut I, Warforged Construct Thinking II, Warforged Tactics II, Warforged Damage Reduction II
Benefit: As you become more like a construct the thought of being a living creature seems but a shadow to you. Your ability to be healed is inhibited by 10% more and your social skills (haggle, bluff, diplomacy, intimidation) drop by another -1. You gain +25% fortification. You gain immunity over instant death effects. You gain the ability to perform an Bull Rush.

Warforged Juggernaut: Bull Rush
(Instant Effect, 15 second cooldown timer, shares timer with Trip and Improved Trip, duration equal to Trip or Improved Trip [if possessed])
You can now perform a Bull Rush at your opponents. When you perform a Bull Rush all foes within a 10 foot 120° arc of you must make an STR or DEX check or be knocked down (similar to overrun). The DC of Bull Rush is 10 + STR modifier + other trip modifiers. Monsters must also make a reflex save or take damage from your rush (1d8 + STR modifier) and your spikes.

2AP
Warforged Juggernaut III
Prereqs: Race: Warforged, Level 18 Barbarian or Level 20 Warforged, Warforged Juggernaut I, One of: Warforged Construct Thinking III, Warforged Tactics III, Warforged Damage Reduction III
Benefit: The Warforged Titan wishes he could be as true a construct as you. Your ability to be healed is inhibited by 10% more and your social skills (haggle, bluff, diplomacy, intimidation) drop by a further -1. You gain +25% fortification. You gain immunity over necromantic effects and spells as well as statistical damage and drain. Your armored spikes now deal 2d6 piercing damage when hit. Your imposing visage and tactical expertise allows you to be considered one size larger when performing a Trip, Bull Rush, or any social skills.

[mediocresurgeon]

There's really no reason why the Devs would make Barbarian PrEs and Warforged Juggernaut mutually exclusive, unless 'Forged Juggs have some sort of Rage-like abilitity so there is too much synergy (example: Elven Ranger Arcane Archers cannot also be Deepwood Snipers). By the printed class, I don't really see too much overlap--barbarians generally focus on offensive firepower, and 'Forged Juggs focus on combat maneuvers and immunities.

Really, it should be Kensei and 'Forged Juggs that are exclusive, not Frenzied Barbs.

[esoitl]

This game's balanced? Besides, they've already made it clear that juggernaut only excludes taking other barb Prc's.

I think they've made changes to this. I thought it would make for a really fun character myself, but I believe I recall something about the Juggernaut being a 4th Barb PrE that is available only to WF characters.

They may have changed stance on this but I recall reading somewhere that this couldn't be done.

[Inspire]

My take on a DDO PrE version of the Juggernaut:

2 Feats and 38 Aps; quite a steep investment, though the tradeoffs are fantastic. If this was to become the PrE I could almost promise you would not see any Kensai III/Juggernaut III builds.

[Dartwick]

Umm that "hint" was posted a year ago.

[Inspire]

Umm that "hint" was posted a year ago.

So were the rest of the PrEs, whats your point?

[MrCow]

2 Feats and 38 Aps; quite a steep investment, though the tradeoffs are fantastic. If this was to become the PrE I could almost promise you would not see any Kensai III/Juggernaut III builds.

Yeah, I forgot two little words I had when I thought it up to keep the cost bearable (added "One of:" to the Tier III part). That should bring the cost down to 2 Feats and 26 to 29 AP.

Power Attack is a fairly common feat for a lot of people, so it isn't a huge investment (Warforged Arcanes are the main group that lacks Power Attack). Adamantine Body, though, is a large investment, more of an investment than being just a feat. It highly restricts DEX-based AC, it completely negates evasion, it screws with a Warforged Monk's abilities in many other ways, and it is packing Arcane Spell Failure (35%). I primarily kept it because of how much it relates to the prestige class, but I wonder if would still be in both flavor and balance to consider "One of: Adamantine Body or Mithril Body".

[Dartwick]

So were the rest of the PrEs, whats your point?

Why make a thread quoting it now? Unless its questioning the status.
Who knows whats changed in the mean time.

[Dylos_Moon]

My take on a DDO PrE version of the Juggernaut:

Are you sure -30% for a total base of 20% divine healing is enough? I mean the max healing you could get then would be (50-30+25(healer's friend)+10(docent of blood)=55% adjusted base. 0.55x1.1x1.2x1.3x1.1x1.3=1.349634 or) 134.9634% healing, that's with 3 tiers of greensteel healing amp, finger necklace, docent of blood, and hunter of the dead tier 3.

I think being able to get back to even 100% on a PrC that is supposed to make the character in question have 0% shouldn't be possible imo since there are already 2 abilities that can make warforged immune to healing (improved fortification, and bladesworn transformation). I will note how ever, the adjusted base needs to be below 40% for a warforged with the mentioned enhancements and equipment to not be able to reach 100% healing, and this would mean that you need to somehow get Warforged Juggernaut to -45% (probably -15% per tier) or higher for a Warforged Juggernaut to never be able to reach 100% or higher healing (-45% could reach exactly 98.1552%). Although, I think I'd feel alittle bad for any warforged who takes -45% divine healing from Warforged Juggernaut III, I mean that gives them the possibility of having 5% divine healing if they don't put any effort into it, ok moreso, I don't want to be the cleric healing them, because it'd take 20 heals to even equal one.

EDIT: Ok, -45% could actually reach 108.72576% if they had HotD II, and Monk Improved Healing II, as well as 3 tiers of greensteel healing amp, finger necklace, and docent of blood, and -30% could actually reach 149.49792% with the same, but such a character wouldn't really be worth making, as all the monk levels would be a waste. Of course, HotD with Warforged Juggernaut would probably be a waste too.

[MrCow]

Are you sure -30% for a total base of 20% divine healing is enough? I mean the max healing you could get then would be (50-30+25(healer's friend)+10(docent of blood)=55% adjusted base. 0.55x1.1x1.2x1.3x1.1x1.3=1.349634 or) 134.9634% healing, that's with 3 tiers of greensteel healing amp, finger necklace, docent of blood, and hunter of the dead tier 3.

There is always the possibility of including something such as:

Restricted: Can't be taken with Healer's Friend I.