Wizard with Rogue Splash (Comments Please)

[fluffi]

I have a 12/6/2 Wiz/Fighter/Rogue where I used the following link to source out my trapping skills
http://compendium.ddo.com/wiki/Is_my...l)_high_enough
Diables = 56 = good to disable all non-epic traps
Search = 44 = good enough for non-epic traps

For my build I have
28 ranks(inc int modifier) +28 (items/buffs = +4(GH) +2(HoGF) +7(tools) +15(item)) +2 (skill boost) = 58

For rogue I took 1 at 1st level and the other at 14 so I have reconstruct as soon as I could. Rest was fighter in my case.

UMD = its easy to hit 39 with wiz. My toon has
21 ranks (inc -2 cha) + 18 (items/buffs = +4(GH) +2(HoGF) +3(bunny head) +3 (cha stat item) +6 (cha skill item))

[Phidius]

No. No. No no no no no. And even if that was ALL you give up, no.

You also give up... spell points, all your spells will be more expensive, a feat, spell penetration. You're basically making everything about the wizard worse.

I'm not concerned about fewer spell points or spending more on each spell. I don't take the enhancements for more spell points or for cheaper metamagic as it is... there are other things that I need in my build that I can't replace with clickies and pots.

Precious has all the metamagic feats except Enlarge and Eschew Materials... I don't mind carrying components, and I have no fear of getting close to mobs.

Spell Penetration is my biggest concern, but a -2 isn't that big a deal to me... at least, I don't recall having to struggle to land spells on Precious.

So... make every spell you cast less likely to land, do less damage, cost more and have a smaller pool or... take no damage if I make a save the extremely rare times I put myself in a position to have to make one.

This... is a pretty obvious choice.

Perhaps you are thinking that reflex saves are only used for traps? A good reflex save and evasion will mitigate a tremendous amount of damage from many common spells.

I noticed a tremendous change in the way Precious plays after he got evasion, after playing for 6+ months at the 16 cap without evasion.

Is evasion necessary? Not at all. Is it more fun for me and the way I play? You betcha.

[Ryiah]

You also give up... spell points, all your spells will be more expensive, a feat, spell penetration. You're basically making everything about the wizard worse.

So... make every spell you cast less likely to land, do less damage, cost more and have a smaller pool or... take no damage if I make a save the extremely rare times I put myself in a position to have to make one.

Your points really don't make any sense. I feel as if, based on the comment above about making wizard worse, that you don't really play a wizard or maybe don't understand how to play one properly. If you absolutely have to have the capstone to land hits or to have enough spell points to make it through a quest then you are either badly geared or are doing something wrong.

My pure wizard only has a spell penetration item and both the feats. It lacks the enhancements because frankly they just aren't necessary. It almost never gets anything resisted. And then its usually on something red named or on elite that it actually misses.

No. No. No no no no no. And even if that was ALL you give up, no.

To change and reverse your wording, "Yes. Yes. Yes ... yes. And even if all you gained was evasion, hell yes". The fact is evasion makes all the difference in the word. You suddenly go from having a hard time surviving certain situations to being easily able to survive them.

Think of Stealer of Souls, the fire side. First words in that side are typically "If you don't have evasion, STAY BACK." Without evasion, I have to use enlarge to land hits and to buff the party from range. Having to use enlarge costs a lot more than the spell points you'd lose by gaining evasion and being able to do it right in front of the enemies.

Not to mention the ability to get into parties you normally wouldn't be able to get into because they need a rogue. I've seen a number of situations where parties running quests I want done won't take a wizard because they need a rogue. Typically its not for unlocking doors they want a rogue. Its for the traps which give boosts to exp. With two levels of rogue, and proper skill point allocation, you would be gaining all the experience from every quest you do simply because you'd be your own rogue.

I've tried running up a few variations on a 2 rogue/18 wizard build in the planner in preparation for the next stage of my completionist feat attempt. So far they've all had maxed open lock, disable traps, search, and UMD. Concentration really isn't that big of a deal but regardless it'll only be about seven points behind everything else. You can always throw quicken into the build at some point if you feel like you're getting interrupted too often. Being the third class I'm doing, it'll have 36 points to allocate giving me 16 str, 18 con, 18 int on a warforge. Levels before firewall I'll probably run around doing melee with extended (order of metamagics I take are extend, maximize, heighten, empower) spells to boost my ability to land blows.

[oweieie]

Your points really don't make any sense. I feel as if, based on the comment above about making wizard worse, that you don't really play a wizard or maybe don't understand how to play one properly.

LMAO! You are indeed funny if nothing else.

If you absolutely have to have the capstone to land hits or to have enough spell points to make it through a quest then you are either badly geared or are doing something wrong.

Or doing a much harder quest than you've ever done.

Your implication is that evasion and trap disabling is an "absolutely have".

My pure wizard only has a spell penetration item and both the feats. It lacks the enhancements because frankly they just aren't necessary. It almost never gets anything resisted. And then its usually on something red named or on elite that it actually misses.

Trash in shavarath and in normal difficulty quests like monastary of the scorpion will have 29+ SR. That means your wail, dance and mass hold will fail to land 20% of the time. That is not "almost never." That is a complete failure as a player to notice how gimp you are. Any party that took you on a hard or elite quest is going to seriously suffer if they expect you to be a wizard and do crowd control or be anything other than a buff bot.

To change and reverse your wording, "Yes. Yes. Yes ... yes. And even if all you gained was evasion, hell yes". The fact is evasion makes all the difference in the word. You suddenly go from having a hard time surviving certain situations to being easily able to survive them.

Please at least try to make sense. If you have 350 HPs then you need to be smacked for 350 damage AND MAKE THE SAVE before getting healing in order for evasion to save you from anything. If you're getting hit that hard and actually expect to make the save you're dreaming. Unless you've gotten improved evasion or spent a lot more than 2 levels to get at least a +30 reflex save, evasion is doing jack all for you.

Think of Stealer of Souls, the fire side. First words in that side are typically "If you don't have evasion, STAY BACK." Without evasion, I have to use enlarge to land hits and to buff the party from range. Having to use enlarge costs a lot more than the spell points you'd lose by gaining evasion and being able to do it right in front of the enemies.

*sigh* you clearly don't know what improved evasion does or that fact that you don't get it from 2 levels of rogue or that dexterity, something that wizards don't have in abundance, helps your reflex save. As your warforged build you mention doesn't have it, your evasion from 2 levels of rogue will help you a whopping 5% of the time.

Not to mention the ability to get into parties you normally wouldn't be able to get into because they need a rogue.

Offset by the parties you lose because they want a competent arcane.

I've tried running up a few variations on a 2 rogue/18 wizard build in the planner in preparation for the next stage of my completionist feat attempt. So far they've all had maxed open lock, disable traps, search, and UMD. Concentration really isn't that big of a deal but regardless it'll only be about seven points behind everything else.

Yes, the ability to get a spell off when you're taking damage is definitely something to give up in preference to opening locks. Since all you ever do as a wizard is buff apparently you don't actually have to cast when being hit.

[Dutch01]

*sigh* you clearly don't know what improved evasion does or that fact that you don't get it from 2 levels of rogue or that dexterity, something that wizards don't have in abundance, helps your reflex save. As your warforged build you mention doesn't have it, your evasion from 2 levels of rogue will help you a whopping 5% of the time.

I'm too tired to argue your entire post so I'll just focus on this part right here.

1st I never saw her mention improved evasion, YOU are the only one bringing that in. This right here voids any intelligent discourse you have attempted already, but I will continue

2nd Having a high dexterity is NOT the only way to end up with high reflex saves. I was going to tell you what else would do it and be pertinent to a wizard, but I am going to challenge you to remove the 5th point of contact for a few minutes and do some research and get back to us. There is a very simple answer, it is 2 words long, and extremely pertinent to the 18/2 Wiz/Rog build.

3rd Again I have reiterate that moving the mouth and speaking (or in this case moving the fingers and typing) without knowing of what you speak makes you look foolish. You may consider sitting back and listening for awhile.


As a side note because I see you bringing this up, do not let the join date fool you this is a second account and I have been around much much longer then the date here states.

[oweieie]

1st I never saw her mention improved evasion, YOU are the only one bringing that in. This right here voids any intelligent discourse you have attempted already, but I will continue

Reading comprehension. She doesn't mention it because she doesn't know about it. Look at her comment about SoS.

2nd Having a high dexterity is NOT the only way to end up with high reflex saves. I was going to tell you what else would do it and be pertinent to a wizard, but I am going to challenge you to remove the 5th point of contact for a few minutes and do some research and get back to us. There is a very simple answer, it is 2 words long, and extremely pertinent to the 18/2 Wiz/Rog build.

It's called making yourself gimper. You honestly think ****ing away a feat is a good idea? Get a clue.

3rd Again I have reiterate that moving the mouth and speaking (or in this case moving the fingers and typing) without knowing of what you speak makes you look foolish. You may consider sitting back and listening for awhile.

Advice you desperately need to take yourself.

As a side note because I see you bringing this up, do not let the join date fool you this is a second account and I have been around much much longer then the date here states.

So you have no excuse.

[Dutch01]

Reading comprehension. She doesn't mention it because she doesn't know about it. Look at her comment about SoS.



It's called making yourself gimper. You honestly think ****ing away a feat is a good idea? Get a clue.



Advice you desperately need to take yourself.



So you have no excuse.

First you're wrong again

For that build it is not ****ing away a feat so try again. Not only did your attempt at logic fail, but your attempt at trying to sound intelligent fell so wildly off the mark you somehow landed off in left field somewhere. Your not gimping yourself and if you had had an inkling of an idea of what you were talking about you would realize that. SO I assert to you again remove your 5th point of contact, it will do you good.

[oweieie]

For that build it is not ****ing away a feat so try again.

Break our your second hand, use the fingers. Count.

Not only did your attempt at logic fail, but your attempt at trying to sound intelligent fell so wildly off the mark you somehow landed off in left field somewhere. Your not gimping yourself and if you had had an inkling of an idea of what you were talking about you would realize that. SO I assert to you again remove your 5th point of contact, it will do you good.

*yawn*

I'd bet even my dog could tell a 20 wizard is better at being a wizard than an 18/2. Dog 1, you 0.

[Dutch01]

Break our your second hand, use the fingers. Count.


*yawn*

I'd bet even my dog could tell a 20 wizard is better at being a wizard than an 18/2. Dog 1, you 0.

Hmmm let me think here Toughness, Extend, Empower, Maximize, Insightful Reflex's ..... hey what do you know I still have 2 more feats I can burn up on what ever I want hmmm guess I didn't **** away a feat try again chump you fail.

Tell ya what go ahead and send me your list of toons so I can go ahead and put them on my no fly list.

edit:After the night passed it occurred to me one thing, you get even more then that in feats because at 1, 5, 10, and 15 you get class feats also, so that covers your metas and still allows you several other feat selections for whatever you choose to take along with that [sarcasm on] just ever so wasteful[sarcasm off] insightful reflex's.

[Nihlia]

If a group doesn't take me as an 18/2 wizard rogue splash because they want a 20 wizard, so be it. I don't need them. This build will be FUN for me. Do I care if I'm some uber big bang character? No. Do I want to be a viable character that can have fun? Yes. Do I want to do the best with a rogue/caster that I can? Yes.

In the end, I do appreciate the point/counter point of pure vs a splash but I never set out to be a pure wizard in the first place. I wanted a character that can do traps and doesn't have to melee. One that can heal themselves, solo when I want and join groups too.

If I find that traps aren't all that fun after I discover all those hidden goodies out there, I'll TR her at 20 to a big bang uber raiding magic machine. Until then, I'm in it for the giggles and surprises.

[JeffreyGator]

My first toon to 1750 favor was very similiar to what you are building. (less umd, more spot, occasionally wacked things with a big stick to save spell points there's a lot of mellee in this game even at times for a caster)

short handed and in the right groups being the trap-disabler (for groups that aren't just ignoring the traps) will help you to learn the quests and the game more than just nuking stuff.

good luck and enjoy!

[Phidius]

If a group doesn't take me as an 18/2 wizard rogue splash because they want a 20 wizard, so be it. I don't need them. This build will be FUN for me. Do I care if I'm some uber big bang character? No. Do I want to be a viable character that can have fun? Yes. Do I want to do the best with a rogue/caster that I can? Yes.

In the end, I do appreciate the point/counter point of pure vs a splash but I never set out to be a pure wizard in the first place. I wanted a character that can do traps and doesn't have to melee. One that can heal themselves, solo when I want and join groups too.

If I find that traps aren't all that fun after I discover all those hidden goodies out there, I'll TR her at 20 to a big bang uber raiding magic machine. Until then, I'm in it for the giggles and surprises.

This is full of win. +1

[Dutch01]

If a group doesn't take me as an 18/2 wizard rogue splash because they want a 20 wizard, so be it. I don't need them. This build will be FUN for me. Do I care if I'm some uber big bang character? No. Do I want to be a viable character that can have fun? Yes. Do I want to do the best with a rogue/caster that I can? Yes.

In the end, I do appreciate the point/counter point of pure vs a splash but I never set out to be a pure wizard in the first place. I wanted a character that can do traps and doesn't have to melee. One that can heal themselves, solo when I want and join groups too.

If I find that traps aren't all that fun after I discover all those hidden goodies out there, I'll TR her at 20 to a big bang uber raiding magic machine. Until then, I'm in it for the giggles and surprises.

See you have the right idea. You want to have fun with it, both ways are very viable, one more utilitarian then the other but both viable and you go with the style you like to play. Some people though are just so hell bent on pigeonholing classes into one role and expect everyone to do nothing else but that.

[Beld]

and an 12/2 wiz/rogue split atm, and I built the wiz/rogue specifically for evasion, backstab damage (and to be warforged, self healing, 450+ HP at lvl 20 ftw ) and I can tell you there is very little if any difference in the two other than about 150 SP, which I can make up with a regular mnemonic that drops a dime a dozen in almost EVERY quest I run.

Having said that, the splash does traps as good or better than my pure rogue (tho admittedly he's an assassin, not really all in for traps anyway) and the extra HP from evasion kicks arse (and yes, it is extra HP, which equates for extra SP in a self healing class) additionally, I'll run my splash against your wiz any day on Tear and watch a laugh my freakin' arse off when you waste your SP trying to knock the shrine doors at level.....heh.

I can open a shrine door WITHOUT SP, therefore, I have gained back most if not all (depends on how many casts it takes you to get it open) your SP difference (and if you can't get it open, I've got you totally borked, cause I got it open, and got all my SP back).

There are also stealth issues that can be beneficial, with insightful reflexes, the ability to SELF CAST GH and BLUR and DISPLACE and STONESKIN and go to town with a 24-26 STR backstabbing WF is great when I don't need to provide burst damage thus providing benefit (even when out of SP which, having played a pure wizard almost to cap, when the SP is gone, most, if not all the usefulness is gone as well).

My reflex save @ lvl 14 is already +26 self buffed, and by casting nightshield, I don't need to worry about a resistance item taking up a slot (and the reflex is still +18 or +20 toe to toe with a beholder, which is nothing to sneeze at).

In closing, take your ill conceived and completely BIASED trolling somewhere else, and OP, enjoy your evasion wizard, you will definately enjoy it and welcome to DDO.

[gavagai]

It's called making yourself gimper. You honestly think ****ing away a feat is a good idea? Get a clue.

Just in case you didn't catch it before, Insightful Reflexes is what helps a Wizard keep his reflex save competitive with the rogue's.

And frankly, even a pure Wizard should take Insightful Reflexes. Evasion or not, 1 feat is undoubtedly worth +15 to your reflex save.

[garkzz]

Think about starting with these stats:
str 11
dex 8
con 19
wis 6
int 18
cha 6

+1 tomes for str and con aren't that hard to find.

18/2 wiz/rogues are great at soloing especially for your first character on a server, great for getting favor and farming areas like orchard and the desert.

my guy is level 16 and already can get almost 60 in search and more than 60 in disable device with only self buffs. Traps aren't a problem. Learn where they are and how to avoid them so you can search and disable.

[jstroud]

I'd bet even my dog could tell a 20 wizard is better at being a wizard than an 18/2. Dog 1, you 0.

And if your dog could tell that, then I bet your dog could also tell that the OP wanted advice on a 18 Wizard/2 Rogue build, and not a debate of the comparative merits and faults of such a build versus a pure level 20 Wizard.

Such a debate would have better reception in a seperate thread - pure Wizard is indeed powerful, but it is NOT what the OP wants. Please refrain from trying to make the OP and the others "see the light" and try to focus on giving solid advice on the requested build, regardless of how "gimpy" you feel it to be.

It is called objectivity - you should give it a try, it's much more fun than bias.

Dog 2, us 0, you 0.

[Fedora]

An 18/2 wizard/rogue is a better rogue than a 20 wizard....

[HallowedOne]

If a group doesn't take me as an 18/2 wizard rogue splash because they want a 20 wizard, so be it. I don't need them. This build will be FUN for me. Do I care if I'm some uber big bang character? No. Do I want to be a viable character that can have fun? Yes. Do I want to do the best with a rogue/caster that I can? Yes.

In the end, I do appreciate the point/counter point of pure vs a splash but I never set out to be a pure wizard in the first place. I wanted a character that can do traps and doesn't have to melee. One that can heal themselves, solo when I want and join groups too.

If I find that traps aren't all that fun after I discover all those hidden goodies out there, I'll TR her at 20 to a big bang uber raiding magic machine. Until then, I'm in it for the giggles and surprises.

+1 for the sheer awesomeness of the response

[AdahnX]

Just wanted to say that I found this thread, along with a few other posts on Rogue/Wizard builds, extremely helpful, despite getting a little off topic for a while. I did a lot of rerolls since trying DDO, never getting off the island or making it past level 3. I finally made a Tinkerer (named in another post for trapmonkey wizards) and I haven't looked back. I like the self-sufficiency and versatility. And it combines my two favorite collections. Learning every spell in the game and accumulating a massive amount of skill points.