three fundamental pally questions

[MithrilSoul]

Hi all,

Brand new to DDO (two weeks), enjoying the game so far. I've messed around rolling probably a half dozen or more characters and playing them for a few levels just to get a feel for the classes. My main (so far) is a Tempest (TWF) Ranger/Rogue who will eventually be an 18/1/1 build.

So I am looking to do something a little different with a second "main" toon. I have settled on a THF Paladin. I already have a TWF character so I am not really interested in another TWF toon (especially since I also have a monk I may level up some, so that is also effectively a TWF class with unarmed strikes).

So given I would like to build a THF pally, these are my questions.

1. When designing a paladin for soloability (as opposed to group play), what are the biggest "changes" I need to be aware of versus most of the builds listed in these forum threads? It seems (rightly so) that most of the comments about gear, etc. are focused on paladins in a group/party context. But for reasons I won't get in to here, I am looking to make this toon a soloist--that means little to no grouping during the leveling process, no raids even at higher levels, no raid gear access, etc. Would just like to be able to solo her as well and as far as I can. Does that goal alter significantly any of the suggestions about builds normally seen in these threads?

2. Everyone seems to take for granted that UMD is an absolutely must-needed skill. I don't understand why.

3. I get the impression that the only two races one should ever even remotely consider for a paladin is either drow or human. By inclination, I would most like to play an elf. How badly "behind" would that put me compared to a human build as a THF pally?

Thanks in advance for any help!

P.S. -- In case it matters, I do have 32 point builds open (via DDO store purchase) and, presuming I "like" the character, would be able to obtain the necessary +2 tomes via DDO store if I am not able to get them in-game.

[Gercho]

Questions 1 and 2- When designed for solo play, you have two parts, part 1 is from lvl 1 to about 9 or 10, there you can think of having a good ac, that makes you almost untouchable, using shield and sword, and healing with loh and an ocasional wand you can do most content without problems, after that, the ac stops being so important, and you start getting hit a lot, so you need 2 things, one is a way to kill your enemies faster (using thf or twf), and the other is a way to avoid damage or heal yourself better than your loh and limited spell points allow you, thats when UMD comes into play as a great skill. Using umd you can cast some protective buffs from scrolls (or wands if you get them) that are only available to wizards like stone skin, blur, fire shield, and you can heal yourself beyond your sp pool, with scrolls of heal, and obviously, keep using those wands, though as you level, wands will start to be less important sine the healing will be too low.
So UMD is a great skill for every paladin, because allows you to use rr items and buff yourself, but is vital for the soloist cause you wont have anyone else to buff or heal you. Be aware that you will need to spend some coin in scrolls, and could be hard to maintain if its your main char, but if you have some other char to help it, you shouldnt have problems.

So, for solo play, i like the paladin 18/rogue 2 build, that allows you to max umd, and gives you evasion, that is another great feat for soloist, cause you wont disarm any traps so you have to walk through them, and well, its great to avoid much of the casters direct damage.

Question 3- Its not true that human and drow are the only good races for paladin, are the most used, drow mostly for twf paladins, and mostly for people without 32 points, huma is better for twf aswell since they can get khopesh with the extra feat. For thf, i would think that elf using falchion is better than human or drow, and wfg is probably even better, dwarf could be good for twf aswell. So, if you like elf, going thf elf is a good choice.

[MithrilSoul]

Thanks Gercho, that is very helpful. One follow-up question, will a pally (in my situation) typically stick with heavy armor throughout? I get the sense that TWF pallys at some point switch out their heavy armor for lighter armor but that's not clear whether THF pallys would go the same route as well.

I guess I'm thinking about DEX when I ask that. Wearing heavy armor nerfs any DEX based AC bonuses to hell anyways, so I kind of assumed that a paladin could get by with 12 or even lower DEX and it wouldn't be a big deal. Is that true? I realize TWF pallys need at least a decent chunk of DEX in order to get all the relevant TWF skills; I'm just not clear about how DEX would play a role with a THF pally.

I'm also wondering about how elves will deal with the skill point issue. We don't get the bonus skill point humans do, and with UMD a cross-class (at least for the pally levels) it seems that there is almost no skill points left for..well...anything. I mean, I would think any melee character would need a decent balance, no? And it might be nice to have a few points in jump or tumble. Could I get by with a 12 INT elf build, or do I realistically need at least 14 in INT in order to have at least a minimal amount of skill points?

EDIT: okay one more question, assuming I do a 18/2 pally rogue build, obviously I take rogue 1 at level 1 for all the extra skill points. When is the best time to take rogue 2, right away or at some point down the road?

[Gercho]

If you go the rogue route, you need to use light armor once you get the second rogue level to be able to use evasion, i took 2nd rogue at 10, its when you stop using heavy armor cause you dont care as much for AC anymore.
So, dex 10 will be enough if you are THF, since you dont need more dex when using heavy armor, and you wont care about ac when you switch to light armor or robe.
About int, you can get away with as less as 10, that will give you 2 for umd in paladin levels, you get tumble and max balance, jump and some others you like at lvl 1 with rogue, and when you take second rogue you put 1 umd and everything else to balance, if you want extra skill points, you may want to put in jump (you dont need more than 1 point in tumble really) and some more in balance, but as paladin all the usefull skills are cross class, so wont gain much of that.

So for starting stats i would go:
str 17 (lvl up points here)
dex 10
con 12 (you should be able to get to close to 500 hp's without any rare items and just a +2 tome, more than enough)
int 11 (+1 tome at lvl 3 for extra skills points to jump/balance)
wis 8
cha 16 (+2 tome qualifies for DM III)

[MithrilSoul]

Thanks again. Sounds like I have a good plan in mind now.

[kelabb]

Thanks Gercho, that is very helpful. One follow-up question, will a pally (in my situation) typically stick with heavy armor throughout? I get the sense that TWF pallys at some point switch out their heavy armor for lighter armor but that's not clear whether THF pallys would go the same route as well.

Armour choice in the early levels wll to some extent be dictated by stability skill. Heavy armour does not sit well with low stability as you'll spend a lot of time on the ground... trip, grease etc I play a human pally and use light or medium armour myself. I do make sure I invest in stability evey level, and try to wear a +n stability item as well.

I'm also wondering about how elves will deal with the skill point issue. We don't get the bonus skill point humans do, and with UMD a cross-class (at least for the pally levels) it seems that there is almost no skill points left for..well...anything. I mean, I would think any melee character would need a decent balance, no? And it might be nice to have a few points in jump or tumble. Could I get by with a 12 INT elf build, or do I realistically need at least 14 in INT in order to have at least a minimal amount of skill points?

EDIT: okay one more question, assuming I do a 18/2 pally rogue build, obviously I take rogue 1 at level 1 for all the extra skill points. When is the best time to take rogue 2, right away or at some point down the road?

If you plan for a level of Rogue, make it level 1. While this restricts you weapon choice for level 1, it sets you up with a lot more skill points than any other class. Put as many points as you can in Disable, Open, Search, UMD and balance and jump. Leftover points can go anywhere else really... (not much point putting them in Diplomacy if you are mainly a solo build.)

Put no more than one rank in tumble (a full 1, not .5) as that gives you the skill, you won't have enough skill points to max it out to do fancy acrobatics.

For soloability I would suggest weilding an axe if human or falchion if elf.

Have fun

[MithrilSoul]

Well just to update those who helped me...

I ended up making a human paladin. I figure my ranger character is already an elf so I figured rather than make another elf I'd go the human route. She started out at level 4 and I have her up to 5 now. Took first level in rogue and then everything in pally. I must say, so far (granted, it's still REALLY early) she seems to be doing much better as a solo character than my Tempest ranger/rogue. I'm doing quests on elite, solo, with her by herself as a level 5 that my Tempest can't do solo at level 7 without bringing along a cleric hireling.

So I'm really liking the pally. I have a feeling this is going to become my "main" while the ranger becomes my alt. There's something really rewarding about seeing these huge damage numbers scroll up the screen, and looking down at my hp bar and seeing I am over 100 hp at level 5. Only negative so far has been the fact that when I hit pally level 4 I realized I couldn't cast any spells because my WIS is too low (only 8 right now and I don't have any +3 WIS items that can get it high enough to cast). I'll probably just have to have patience and wait until level 7 when I can use a +2 tome.

So thanks for all the advice. Loving every minute of it so far.

[lord_of_rage]

If it were me I would go with a dwarf, or human dos build in thf. You can pull a really high ac youll have great saves and survivability and be able to do dps. I would go 18 pally 2 ftr or 18 pally 1 ftr 1 rogue. You can shift in and out of s&b and thf as needed.

Stats

16 str
10 dex
15con
12int
10wis
15cha

you can mess with enhancements and fit in dm3 if you really want.

Dos is a really over looked pre. Yes kotc cranks serious dps. But dos builds can be a ton of fun and very good to have in a party if you play them right. The fighter lvl is a must because you net 2 feats( a free feat and tower shield). It might not fit into what you are looking for but its another option.

[Dartanyn]

Wands of Owl's Wisdom are cheap and easy to buy (marketplace vendor).

They're also good for the +2 to will saves when you know you're gonna be up against 3+ kobold shamans at a time. It's hard to resist hold person when its cast at you 5-6 times.

Something else to think about -- you might consider trying to fit in the Force of Personality feat in there somewhere so that you can sub your cha mod in for your wis mod on your will saves. Most of the solo character's game-enders are blown will saves, and Force of Personality is effectively a +5 to Will saves if your wis is -1 and your cha is +4.

Just a thought.

-n

[MithrilSoul]

Dos is a really over looked pre. Yes kotc cranks serious dps. But dos builds can be a ton of fun and very good to have in a party if you play them right. The fighter lvl is a must because you net 2 feats( a free feat and tower shield). It might not fit into what you are looking for but its another option.

Only reason I am not interested in going s&b and DoS is because in LOTRO (which is my primary MMO right now), my main character there is a tank. So I do a lot of s&b, lot of tanking there and when I come to DDO I'm looking to do something a little different. If it wasn't for that fact, then yes I can see where DoS could be a really fun and very solid paladin option.

Wands of Owl's Wisdom are cheap and easy to buy (marketplace vendor).

They're also good for the +2 to will saves when you know you're gonna be up against 3+ kobold shamans at a time. It's hard to resist hold person when its cast at you 5-6 times.

Something else to think about -- you might consider trying to fit in the Force of Personality feat in there somewhere so that you can sub your cha mod in for your wis mod on your will saves. Most of the solo character's game-enders are blown will saves, and Force of Personality is effectively a +5 to Will saves if your wis is -1 and your cha is +4.

Just a thought.

-n

Two good tips there; I think I just got a wand of Owl's Wisdom as a drop earlier today. And then the Force of Personality feat is an interesting idea, not something I had even considered. But you're certainly right, getting hit by a "hold person" right in the middle of a tough fight can often be a death sentence, or at the very least cause me to burn a lot more of my "emergency" skills then I might wand to at that point in a dungeon.

[Vormaerin]

As a paladin, you should have insane saves without spending a feat on Force of Personality. Yes, getting held is bad news when solo, but the odds are that you rolled a 1 on your save anyway, so the extra bonuses wouldn't matter. If you are really worried about crowd control, you are better off trying to solve it by getting a spell resistance item so you have two different ways of resisting.

Defender of Siberys is an interesting build, but there is hardly any Guardian style tanking going on in this game. Its almost all Fervour tanking or no tanking at all, except in a few raid situations. If you look at any of the 'intimitank' builds, you'll see they spend most of their time in the equivalent of Overpower stance.

[lord_of_rage]

As a paladin, you should have insane saves without spending a feat on Force of Personality. Yes, getting held is bad news when solo, but the odds are that you rolled a 1 on your save anyway, so the extra bonuses wouldn't matter. If you are really worried about crowd control, you are better off trying to solve it by getting a spell resistance item so you have two different ways of resisting.

Defender of Siberys is an interesting build, but there is hardly any Guardian style tanking going on in this game. Its almost all Fervour tanking or no tanking at all, except in a few raid situations. If you look at any of the 'intimitank' builds, you'll see they spend most of their time in the equivalent of Overpower stance.

Most dos builds I know hate tank when they main tank and intim the trash. I will say that evey dos build should have a dps option either twf or thf. Mine tend to stay twf in most parties only shifting to s&b when needed. They dont offer the insane dps kotc pallys do. But they offer a solid high ac melee that can tank when needed and are alot of fun and really easy to solo with.

[Vormaerin]

Most dos builds I know hate tank when they main tank and intim the trash. I will say that evey dos build should have a dps option either twf or thf. Mine tend to stay twf in most parties only shifting to s&b when needed. They dont offer the insane dps kotc pallys do. But they offer a solid high ac melee that can tank when needed and are alot of fun and really easy to solo with.

Umm, that's what I said? MithrilSoul and I are both Guardians in LotRO also, so I was explaining how certainly things work differently in the approach to tanking compared to how a guardian works. What you described is, in fact, the DDO version of Fervour Tanking or Overpower stance.

[Ultrazen]

The biggest problem I had leveling my Palie solo, was getting knocked down a *lot* and or getting held. If you're solo, and in any kind of toughish content, it's pretty much a death sentence, especially getting held.

I know a lot of people don't care much for force of personality, personally I like to take it as soon as possible, even if you end up switching it out later. Failing will saves just about every time they are cast at you is a real pain in the butt at lower levels, as you end up fighting so many freaking kobald shaman all the time, and they seem to spam that spell. If you run into a group of 2 or 3 of them you are pretty much hosed.

Building a palie for solo, is a really different beast than for group play. UMD is pretty much mandatory, or you won't get much past level 10ish content. Not having those buffs you can't get otherwise makes soloing very difficult 10+.

[kelabb]

The biggest problem I had leveling my Palie solo, was getting knocked down a *lot* ....

This probably a result of using heavy armour with low Balance. In the early levels stick to light, or at most medium armour. I suggest not wearing heavy armour unless you at least have a positive Balance skill wearing it. And remember shields increase the burden to balance as well...

I know a lot of people don't care much for force of personality, personally I like to take it as soon as possible, even if you end up switching it out later. Failing will saves just about every time they are cast at you is a real pain in the butt at lower levels, as you end up fighting so many freaking kobald shaman all the time, and they seem to spam that spell. If you run into a group of 2 or 3 of them you are pretty much hosed.

Building a palie for solo, is a really different beast than for group play. UMD is pretty much mandatory, or you won't get much past level 10ish content. Not having those buffs you can't get otherwise makes soloing very difficult 10+.

We all get a "free" feat change. I like to use FOP in early levels until I can get some decent resistance items. It can be swapped out later.